Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 2,917
    Dalton had cinematic presence--if he hadn't, he wouldn't have enjoyed a career in films and TV before he became Bond. But he had the misfortune to become Bond at a time when the world was simply less interested in Bond than it has been before or since (the decline in Moore's box office was the writing on the wall). I'm beginning to think that even if Brosnan had starred in a Bond film in 1991, it probably wouldn't have done very well at the box office. The hiatus was ultimately what the series needed.
    As for versatility, Moore didn't really click in the role until his third Bond film--one film more than Dalton enjoyed.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    That is something I occasionally wonder about when comparing Dalton and Moore as well. Dalton's twin efforts were very solid and honestly better than Moore's first two. While Moore made Bond his own in LALD already, I find TLD the clearly superior product despite LALD being tailored to the more "classic feel" and with far superior villains for Moore to work with. And LTK, flawed as it is, blows the confused and muddled TMWTGG out of the water. I am aware that there are other factors at play, not just the Bond actors, but it is something worth noting.

    I really wonder what it would have been like if Dalton had a 1991 and 1993 movie. Perhaps he could've got his own TSWLM and just struck the right chord.

    At the end of the day, though, we judge based on what we have seen, and Moore demonstrated a variety and flexibility to his approach that Dalton never came close to replicating. For that matter, nobody has (I think Moore's approach was even more varied than Connery's, who had an overall better portrayal of Bond but kind of stuck to a single mould). That wins major points in my book. Like all the Bond actors, Moore had his leanings and preferred style, but he was able to stretch his acting to fit other scenarios in a way that just about none of the other actors could (Connery could but rarely did).

    The other thing Sir Roger has going for him is consistency. Regardless of how he played Bond he gave good performances and maintained a standard that even Connery dropped in YOLT and DAF when he phoned it in. Brosnan and Craig have slipped at times; the other two haven't made enough movies to be judged on consistency (though there's certainly Dalton's accent slips in LTK to consider :)) ).
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    This sounds harsh but I'm not sure Dalton really has a cinematic presence.

    timothydalton.gif?w=1000
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    That is something I occasionally wonder about when comparing Dalton and Moore as well. Dalton's twin efforts were very solid and honestly better than Moore's first two. While Moore made Bond his own in LALD already, I find TLD the clearly superior product despite LALD being tailored to the more "classic feel" and with far superior villains for Moore to work with. And LTK, flawed as it is, blows the confused and muddled TMWTGG out of the water. I am aware that there are other factors at play, not just the Bond actors, but it is something worth noting.

    I really wonder what it would have been like if Dalton had a 1991 and 1993 movie. Perhaps he could've got his own TSWLM and just struck the right chord.

    At the end of the day, though, we judge based on what we have seen, and Moore demonstrated a variety and flexibility to his approach that Dalton never came close to replicating. For that matter, nobody has (I think Moore's approach was even more varied than Connery's, who had an overall portrayal of Bond but kind of stuck to a single mould). That wins major points in my book. Like all the Bond actors, Moore had his leanings and preferred style, but he was able to stretch his acting to fit other scenarios in a way that just about none of the other actors could (Connery could but rarely did).

    The other thing Sir Roger has going for him is consistency. Regardless of how he played Bond he gave good performances and maintained a standard that even Connery dropped in YOLT and DAF when he phoned it in. Brosnan and Craig have slipped at times; the other two haven't made enough movies to be judged on consistency (though there's certainly Dalton's accent slips in LTK to consider :)) ).

    Good post. I agree with your assessment of Moore. He's underrated in terms of his acting - a very deft and flexible performer. Ironically it is Moore who actually completed his studies at RADA - Dalton dropped out after a year, I think partly becuase he resented being forced to lose his regional accent! We always hear how Dalton is a 'stage actor' but I wonder if it isn't just that Moore and Connery are better actors. I feel Dalton didn't take the time to learn the craft in the same way as Rog, who also benefited from a stint in Hollywood during the last days of the old studio system when young stars were expected to fit into whatever role or type the studio expected of them.

    I fully recognise the weaknesses in Dalton but still enjoy his two entries, particularly TLD, where I think he owns the part brilliantly during the first half especially.

    I am a Dalton fan who found Brosnan utterly underwhelming throughout his stint. Always amused to hear people describe Brosnan as 'nailing it' in DAD. Seriously?! In the sense that he managed to nail sh*t to the wall? I suppose that is an achievement of sorts.

    So from my perspective one more Dalton would always have been preferable to any number of Brosnan entries. Whether a third Dalton film would have cemented him in the role will always be out there as a big "what if". For people like me he established himself brilliantly in TLD any way.

    But the 90s were a difficult time for Bond. Cold War gone. Abysmal out of character product placement everywhere (MI6 handing out BMWs?!). I can't stand GE and although Dalton would have improved it in my eyes it would have needed major changes to redeem it entirely.

    The light hearted Moore stuff that they (badly) resurrected during the Brosnan era just felt stale and wrong to me. It took Bourne to wake EON up to where Bond might head in the future.

    Yep those accent slips in LTK are bad. Hillarious though. Glen should have insisted on Dalton dubbing those lines later but I guess he knew about Dalton's touchiness on this subject.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Getafix wrote: »
    Good post. I agree with your assessment of Moore. He's underrated in terms of his acting - a very deft and flexible performer.

    Roger was very good at playing light comedy, which is harder than it looks, but he was not a flexible performer. He had a narrow range which he performed very well in.
    Ironically it is Moore who actually completed his studies at RADA - Dalton dropped out after a year, I think partly becuase he resented being forced to lose his regional accent! We always hear how Dalton is a 'stage actor' but I wonder if it isn't just that Moore and Connery are better actors.

    You hear that Dalton is stage actor because he was a stage actor. He appeared in dozens of productions after receiving his dramatic training, unlike Moore. And he continued appearing in them after breaking into films.
    I feel Dalton didn't take the time to learn the craft in the same way as Rog, who also benefited from a stint in Hollywood during the last days of the old studio system when young stars were expected to fit into whatever role or type the studio expected of them.

    I doubt starring in a few anodyne pictures for MGM was more challenging than regularly appearing on stage. As Roger admitted, he wasn't very good at the studio and didn't last long there. His roles were mostly small and undemanding and the larger ones, such as in Diane, were premature typecasting.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    I said flexible not that he had great range. I partly meant this in the sense he was a professional and did what he was told and fitted his performance to what the script demanded. I think he did this very well, with swift shifts of gear between humour and seriousness.

    Yes Dalton appeared more on the stage but Rog is the one who completed his classical training at RADA. Sometimes I feel this shows. Also Brosnan finished stage school and had a successful stage career before TV. I'm not particualrly making a point, just setting the record straight.

    Re Rog's time in the studio system you can debate it all you want but I have no doubt just being around that system at that time and perhaps watching how some of the big stars performed rubbed off on Rog. He was able to convey some of that old school Hollywood charm and screen charisma that's for sure - in a different league from all the other Bonds apart from Connery on that front. And I think no one can really question that Connery was the better actor.

    I think these days the idea that you are either a stage or screen actor is rather old hat, although they remain very distinct mediums requiring a radically different approach. I agree Dalton has a tendency to overact sometimes, but surely the same criticism applies as much, if not more so, to Brosnan. What is the pain face and all of Brosnan's strutting and posturing if not ticks from his stage background?
  • Posts: 2,917
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes Dalton appeared more on the stage but Rog is the one who completed his classical training at RADA. Sometimes I feel this shows.

    I'm not sure how it would--Moore never played any classical parts afterward (unlike Dalton). And I don't think RADA's emphasis would have been on the sort of light comedy Moore went on to play so well. Those skills are honed in commercial entertainment, and Moore certainly paid his dues in that area.
    Rog's time in the studio system...I have no doubt just being around that system at that time and perhaps watching how some of the big stars performed rubbed off on Rog. He was able to convey some of that old school Hollywood charm and screen charisma that's for sure - in a different league from all the other Bonds apart from Connery on that front. And I think no one can really question that Connery was the better actor.

    No doubt about that. But Connery also conveyed old school Hollywood charm and screen charisma, and he wasn't a studio player. Roger himself was only at MGM for two years. I would argue that Moore's long career in television--Ivanhoe, Maverick, The Alaskans, etc.--was what really gave him polish and honed his onscreen skills.
    I agree Dalton has a tendency to overact sometimes, but surely the same criticism applies as much, if not more so, to Brosnan.

    I'm not a great Brosnan fan, but I tend to be bothered more by his underacting. He took playing it cool to the point of playing dead.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    I suppose what I'm getting at with Rog is that contrary to received wisdom, it's Rog who really learnt his craft the old fashioned way - sticking out stage school; going through the rigours of the studio system; and yes, working away on TV series for years and years. He learnt the tricks of the trade through years of hard work. He made it look effortless and wanted us all to think it was, but that level of pollish is anything but.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    I suppose what I'm getting at with Rog is that contrary to received wisdom, it's Rog who really learnt his craft the old fashioned way - sticking out stage school; going through the rigours of the studio system; and yes, working away on TV series for years and years. He learnt the tricks of the trade through years of hard work. He made it look effortless and wanted us all to think it was, but that level of polish is anything but.

    Bang on.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited February 2018 Posts: 8,395
    I heard recently that Brosnan got the role almost by default, because Dalton didn't pull out until 1993, and they didn't have time for a full casting process. Don't know how much of that is true, but it does make you think that some decisions aren't decided on months in advance even when it comes to who plays Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I heard recently that Brosnan got the role almost by default, because Dalton didn't pull out until 1993, and they didn't have time for a full casting process. Don't know how much of that is true, but it does make you think that some decisions aren't decided on months in advance even when it comes to who plays Bond.
    He was the right choice for the times. I'm glad it played out the way it did. GE is one of the best.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I became very critical of Brosnan's tenure overall but casting him in GE was the right move.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I agree, he was good in all his movies, even when the movies themselves weren't so good.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I agree, he was good in all his movies, even when the movies themselves weren't so good.

    I'm not sure if he was good in all his movies but GE was very much needed as it is and he was very much needed as Bond to make the character cool again.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I agree, he was good in all his movies, even when the movies themselves weren't so good.

    I'm not sure if he was good in all his movies but GE was very much needed as it is and he was very much needed as Bond to make the character cool again.
    I agree. GE is certainly the reintroduction of the 'cool' Bond.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I'd also say that it's the most Bond-centrist Bond movie. Everyone orbits around him.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I agree, he was good in all his movies, even when the movies themselves weren't so good.

    I'm not sure if he was good in all his movies but GE was very much needed as it is and he was very much needed as Bond to make the character cool again.
    I agree. GE is certainly the reintroduction of the 'cool' Bond.

    I don t even know what to say to that...
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    it's quite simple:

    4n27aau.jpg
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Yes the coolness of Goldeneye is undeniable. I think they wanted somewhere between the cold seriousness of Dalton and the rollicking silliness of Moore. I still love how modern the film felt to me in comparison to the earlier films as a kid.
  • Posts: 15,110
    00Agent wrote: »
    it's quite simple:

    4n27aau.jpg

    I don't Dalton could have sold this cover.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 628
    I heard recently that Brosnan got the role almost by default, because Dalton didn't pull out until 1993, and they didn't have time for a full casting process. Don't know how much of that is true, but it does make you think that some decisions aren't decided on months in advance even when it comes to who plays Bond.

    More importantly for the studio, he was cheap. GE had to be a lower-budgeted Bond film, and Brosnan was an actor they knew they could get for a low fee.

    In 1993 Dalton was excited about doing one more Bond film -- and only one more -- but Cubby Broccoli wanted to sign him for as many as four more films. Dalton wasn't interested in that. Then the new regime at MGM/UA stepped in and pressured EON to dismiss Dalton.

    If MGM/UA had not been so aggressive about replacing Bond, I wonder if Dalton would have been driven enough to negotiate with Cubby and finish off his tenure with GE.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    There's no doubt that, for a brief time, the Broz got it right.
    jzZmb7y.png
  • Posts: 15,110
    I always said Brosnan was very comfortable with the icon of Bond. Not so much with the character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I always said Brosnan was very comfortable with the icon of Bond. Not so much with the character.
    That's a good way of putting it actually and arguably Dalton was the opposite, being uncomfortable with the iconic elements while being true to the character.

    What do you think? Could it have worked as well, or would he have scared the living daylights out of her?
    https://i.imgur.com/v7m6M1S.jpg
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Would GE have been a success with Dalton? Absolutely. However, it wouldn't have reached the same heights as it did with Brosnan.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Remington wrote: »
    Would GE have been a success with Dalton? Absolutely. However, it wouldn't have reached the same heights as it did with Brosnan.
    Simple as that.
  • Posts: 15,110
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I always said Brosnan was very comfortable with the icon of Bond. Not so much with the character.
    That's a good way of putting it actually and arguably Dalton was the opposite, being uncomfortable with the iconic elements while being true to the character.

    What do you think? Could it have worked as well, or would he have scared the living daylights out of her?
    https://i.imgur.com/v7m6M1S.jpg

    I think Dalton in GE would have exacerbated many viewers. The jury was in and had said they wanted Brosnan. I remember that time and Dalton fans had no leg to stand on.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Ludovico wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    it's quite simple:

    4n27aau.jpg

    I don't Dalton could have sold this cover.

    For some of us that's a point in Dalton's favour ;)

    Anyway, what is this 'new, postmodern Bond adventure by Will Self'?? I missed that at the time.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited February 2018 Posts: 8,395
    Given how political correctness had taken hold by the mid 90's, I don't think the monologue between M and Dalton would have worked as well. They needed a new Bond for the post-PC world and arguable Dalton would not have fit the bill. They needed someone family friendly, let's say.
  • Posts: 1,680
    Daltons performance in goldeneye would have come across as forced in GE. Many of the scenes in GE wouldn't have worked for Dalton.
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