Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited February 2018 Posts: 5,185
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    Daltons performance in goldeneye would have come across as forced in GE. Many of the scenes in GE wouldn't have worked for Dalton.

    If not all of them. He didn't have the levity needed for GE in my opinion.
  • Posts: 15,110
    In GE Bond is not so much a character than an icon. And the icon was what Dalton struggled with.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited February 2018 Posts: 8,395
    Ludovico wrote: »
    In GE Bond is not so much a character than an icon. And the icon was what Dalton struggled with.

    And most of the Moore films, a few of the Connery's too.

    That's what I think should happen with the next Bond, and think Aidan Turner would be great for it. :D
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    Ludovico wrote: »
    In GE Bond is not so much a character than an icon. And the icon was what Dalton struggled with.

    And most of the Moore films, a few of the Connery's too.

    That's what I think should happen with the next Bond, and think Aidan Turner would be great for it. :D

    I could very much go with that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm all for a return of the 'icon' Bond as well. It's been a long time.
  • Posts: 15,110
    Ludovico wrote: »
    In GE Bond is not so much a character than an icon. And the icon was what Dalton struggled with.

    And most of the Moore films, a few of the Connery's too.

    That's what I think should happen with the next Bond, and think Aidan Turner would be great for it. :D

    I'm not so sure if it was so much the case with all Moore films. He had more depth than Brosnan. Dalton tried to bring character but I always thought it didn't quite work. GE was a celebration of Bond, Dalton would not have fit in it. And audiences would have been exasperated.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 628
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GE was a celebration of Bond, Dalton would not have fit in it. And audiences would have been exasperated.

    Michael France's first draft of GE, which was written specifically for Dalton, is a very different beast, and it's unfair to consider Dalton's place in the final product without considering the original screenplay.

    If the new regime at MGM/UA had not stepped in to override EON's work with France and Dalton had agreed to at least one more film, GE would have looked much different. I have issues with France's script -- there are way too many action sequences, for one -- but it's tougher and clearly geared to Dalton's strengths as an actor.

    To be honest, I could have done without the "celebration of Bond" aspects of the film, which I think come off as labored and self-conscious. I like Bond lean and mean.

  • Posts: 15,110
    I know there was a different treatment of GE with Dalton in mind. And yes it would have been a very different product with a much older villain for instance. But since it was an early treatment it's impossible to know what would have been preserved from it in the finished product. And it might have been quality wise better than the GE we know, I still think it would not have been as popular. Not by a wide margin.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 2,917
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Anyway, what is this 'new, postmodern Bond adventure by Will Self'?? I missed that at the time.

    Oh God, it was horrifying. Self did an very good job of mimicking Fleming's style but the plot was nothing but an excuse to endlessly degrade Bond:
    he screws up his mission, smokes marijuana for the first time, and gets caught naked by the female M, cuing a description of his penis shriveling in shame.
    It was appallingly hateful, and Self's rationale for writing it was that he thought Bond was very cruel and needed a comeuppance. I thought this so fatuous that I have stayed away from Self ever since. His victim-blaming for the Charlie Hebdo murders further strengthened that determination.

    As for Dalton and Moore in combat, I think folks are a little over-lenient toward the late Sir Roger, whose fights were slow and uncreative when not juiced by extensive cutting. Unlike Connery or Lazenby, Moore was not a physically memorable actor and didn't have a distinctive way of moving. Though Dalton never got a chance to shine in a punch-up, as an man of action he was immensely convincing scrambling on the top of the jeep in TLD, hanging from the plane, or scrambling over the trucks in LTK--imagine Moore in those scenes and you'd get lots of stuntmen with a few star closeups.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I believe his full name is Will Self Molest.
  • Posts: 15,110
    Moore was not a convincing fighter but whether it was the cutting, the stuntmen or whatever, his Bond came off as a capable fighter, however implausible Moore it was. Dalton had everything going for him and mano a mano he comes off as frustratingly weak.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 628
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dalton had everything going for him and mano a mano he comes off as frustratingly weak.

    Nah.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @Revelator makes an excellent point about Dalton (and Moore too); although TD didn't have the best punch-ups, he was a man of action, and convincingly so. His Bond was very determined in those scenes mentioned above. He just kept going after the bad guy (whether on the top of a jeep, jumping off of a plane onto a tanker truck, fighting off the baddie on the side of a plane-- no doubt about it, determined)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Revelator wrote: »
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Anyway, what is this 'new, postmodern Bond adventure by Will Self'?? I missed that at the time.

    Oh God, it was horrifying. Self did an very good job of mimicking Fleming's style but the plot was nothing but an excuse to endlessly degrade Bond:
    he screws up his mission, smokes marijuana for the first time, and gets caught naked by the female M, cuing a description of his penis shriveling in shame.
    It was appallingly hateful, and Self's rationale for writing it was that he thought Bond was very cruel and needed a comeuppance. I thought this so fatuous that I have stayed away from Self ever since. His victim-blaming for the Charlie Hebdo murders further strengthened that determination.

    As for Dalton and Moore in combat, I think folks are a little over-lenient toward the late Sir Roger, whose fights were slow and uncreative when not juiced by extensive cutting. Unlike Connery or Lazenby, Moore was not a physically memorable actor and didn't have a distinctive way of moving. Though Dalton never got a chance to shine in a punch-up, as an man of action he was immensely convincing scrambling on the top of the jeep in TLD, hanging from the plane, or scrambling over the trucks in LTK--imagine Moore in those scenes and you'd get lots of stuntmen with a few star closeups.

    I couldn't have put it better. Moore might have had more fights, across any two of his films, but Dalton was more convincing in the action sequences (Dalton didn't need a double just to throw a punch, for starters).
  • Posts: 628
    Two great things about Dalton as Bond:

    1. He looked like a normal but capable guy in the action scenes. What some may perceive as "frustratingly weak," I see as realistic (and more faithful to the character from the novels).

    2. He did most of his own stunts.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Revelator wrote: »
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Anyway, what is this 'new, postmodern Bond adventure by Will Self'?? I missed that at the time.

    Oh God, it was horrifying. Self did an very good job of mimicking Fleming's style but the plot was nothing but an excuse to endlessly degrade Bond:

    Thanks, @Revelator - I knew you'd know! Well, that confirms my long-held feeling (based on Tough, Tough Toys For Tough, Tough Boys, the only one of his I've read) that although Self is a very good writer, I don't like his style and probably wouldn't like him as a person either.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I'm not talking of the action scenes but the combat scenes. And I don't care whether he did his own stunts or not. Brosnan did his own stunts too as far as I know. He's physically not menacing but he wins his fights. Moore wins his fights. Dalton? Not so much. As for realism, Greg Rucka made his series Queen & Country in a realistic setting, the complete anti Bond series yet his Minders hold their own in a fight.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Dalton:Bond didn't win his fights?



    If that doesn't count as a win, nothing does.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I'm exaggerating of course but he did get a beating by a hillbilly (or he looked like a hillbilly) and he didn't exactly look impressive against these Chinese agents.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Dalton:Bond didn't win his fights?



    If that doesn't count as a win, nothing does.
    Arguably Necros killed himself by obsessively hanging onto Bond's boot when there was all that netting to grab instead.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton:Bond didn't win his fights?



    If that doesn't count as a win, nothing does.
    Arguably Necros killed himself by obsessively hanging onto Bond's boot when there was all that netting to grab instead.

    The netting that was flapping around. Under the circumstances, letting go of Bonds boot, and grabbing the net might be easier said than done.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton:Bond didn't win his fights?



    If that doesn't count as a win, nothing does.
    Arguably Necros killed himself by obsessively hanging onto Bond's boot when there was all that netting to grab instead.

    The netting that was flapping around. Under the circumstances, letting go of Bonds boot, and grabbing the net might be easier said than done.
    Fair enough, but given the circumstances it was worth a try. I don't think this fight is a good example to showcase Dalton's talents, as they are mainly hanging onto the rope for most of it.

    Did he ever have a traditional one on one fight during his tenure? I can't recall any. The best fight in TLD is the one between Necros and that MI6 agent in the kitchen at the safe house.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    The success of any film fight comes down to the editor if you ask me.
    Even as late as Octopussy some of Moore's fighting against the villains with the spinney wheel thingy looked good, whereas every fight in AVTAK was weak and hopelessly lacklustre.

    I agree Moore was surprisingly fluid and convincing in one or two earlier fights.

    Dalton was ok in the action scenes IMO, and at the time it was good to see Bond getting roughed up again. Doing some of the stunts lent some much needed credibility to the big sequences.
    I still think Brosnan was a better fit in GE though.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton:Bond didn't win his fights?



    If that doesn't count as a win, nothing does.
    Arguably Necros killed himself by obsessively hanging onto Bond's boot when there was all that netting to grab instead.

    The netting that was flapping around. Under the circumstances, letting go of Bonds boot, and grabbing the net might be easier said than done.
    Fair enough, but given the circumstances it was worth a try. I don't think this fight is a good example to showcase Dalton's talents, as they are mainly hanging onto the rope for most of it.

    Did he ever have a traditional one on one fight during his tenure? I can't recall any. The best fight in TLD is the one between Necros and that MI6 agent in the kitchen at the safe house.

    Well I picked that fight as it was Dalton's best fight, and one of the best in the series (though my personal favourite fight is the Hotel Room fight from OHMSS). Dalton didn't really get that many fights, most of them were scuffles or grapples. Shame really, as giving what his Bond was like, more tactical, I would have liked to have seen him get into more fights, and bring that tactical nature into them.
  • Posts: 1,548
    An old man Bond ala Logan with Dalton would work well IMO.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I'd not only watch that with enthusiasm, I'd finance the damn thing.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2018 Posts: 6,287
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'd also say that it's the most Bond-centrist Bond movie. Everyone orbits around him.

    There are long swaths without Bond, though. Severnaya, for one.

    I'd say the most Bond-centric movie is OHMSS. I think they only cut away from Bond a few times.
  • Posts: 15,110
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'd also say that it's the most Bond-centrist Bond movie. Everyone orbits around him.

    There are long swaths without Bond, though. Severnaya, for one.

    I'd say the most Bond-centric movie is OHMSS. I think they only cut away from Bond a few times.

    But even OHMSS does not celebrate the icon Bond as much or has every other character seemingly so obsessed with him. In GE even a Russian mobster has a history with him!
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.
    If that's the case it was pretty convincing to me. I've always liked the way they filmed that fight. It has atmosphere, pace and movement. I'm pretty sure I saw Sir Rog throw out a few chops and kicks at the very least and that's more than good enough for me.
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