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They're both such affable chaps - surely a good kicking would've done Messers Locque & Gobinda? Was it really necessary to slice them up to such a degree?
Perhaps it's because they seem like such decent sorts that it seems cruel to kill them off. Saunders and Mathis, whilst their deaths are sad, don't hit me as hard because they seem like they are part of the espionage world and they know the score.
Luigi and Vijay seem to be just there to give a bit of help until they can pick up their pension - no one ever explained that they might get killed or they would quit immediately.
Natalya is GE could not have been killed; that would truly have ruined that film.
Anyway, since @OHMSS69 is just a tad late to this particular party today, I'm now posting his list of all the "sacrificial lambs" in Bond films:
Sacrificial Lambs in Bond Films:
DN - Quarrell
FRWL - Kerim Bey
GF - Masterson sisters
TB - Paula
YOLT - Aki
OHMSS - Can't recall the guys name but his blond headed contact
DAF - Plenty O'Toole
LALD - Rosie
TMWTGG - Andrea
TSWLM ?
MR - Corinne
FYEO - Luigi Ferrar
OP - Vejay
AVTAK - Sir Godfrey
TLD Saunders
LTK Della Leiter, and Sharkey
GE ?
TND -Paris
TWINE - Zukovsky
DAD- Entire film [4EverBonded says: "Hey!" to that [-X ]
CR - Solange
QoS - Mathis
- Fields (4EverBonded added Fields to this list)
SF - Severine
It also bothers me a lot that Aki was killed, as well as Corrinne's stupid and awful death (I still get angry about that one), and the second Masterson sister (which name was it? Tilly?). And as for Severine; well, I at least wanted her in the film a lot longer. But really I still wish Bond had saved her. (That had better happen in the next one. There is no reason to keep that out any more.)
When people say they get frustrated by the deaths, is it because you find them to be very sad affairs or because you find them to be unnecessary and (or both?)
This thread makes for an excellent read for us later Bond fans, btw!
Thats a good call. That dumpy mate of Natlaya in the cardigan has always struck me as someone who doesnt really deserve to die. She seems like an ordinary person who shouldnt even be in a Bond film. If you're a Bond girl then then sometimes being bumped off is the price you have to pay for shagging Bond but this poor cow is never going to get anywhere near Bond so it seems rather unjust for her to be sucked into the murky espionage world in such a brutal way.
He was kinda pumping her for information. :\">
But her being killed had perhaps more to do with the failure of her husband to do Le Chiffre his bidding and hence losing him quite a few dollars.
For me the death of Corrine in MR remains one of the darkest moments in the franchise and it is shot very beautifully with the music of JB.
I find it sad for great characters to go, but their function in the film is to get the tension higher. By getting killed. Sir Godfrey, Solange, Quarrel, Kerim, ...etc. they all fit the bill in that way. Some more effective then others.
A sacrificial lamb ... how does this character serve the story?
Is it more than just a sad death or accidental death, like Beatles just gave as an example Plenty O'Toole? I think so, in general .
It is a rather fine nuance at times. I do think that Severine was an obvious sacrificial lamb, as was Aki. And yet Aki was killed by accident (the poison was meant for Bond). Hmmm. I feel that her character fits the sacrificial lamb role simply due to the important to Bond and the feelings the audience would have had towards her at that point in the film.
Zukovsky and Mathis were wonderful supporting characters and their deaths had a deeper and stronger feeling - sacrificial lambs? Yes, but more than the kind we may think of first (perhaps less in the film, more fleeting).
There is a very debatable area around what constitutes a genuine "sacrificial lamb" or not. But it is interesting to think about.
Today we will be moving on to a new topic. However, any additional comments about sacrificial lambs are still welcome.
I'd like to discuss, maybe just for a few days, something that is currently on my mind: How to deal with news about Bond 24 as it becomes available. :-B
We finally have more real news - yay! What do we want to know, really? How much? And the press conference is around the corner.
I'd really like to know how you are going to deal with news, spoilers, etc. How much do you care to find out? Every detail? Just a general idea? Do you have a plan to avoid spoilers, in general, leading up to the release of Bond 24?
This has become something I've had to give more immediate thought to this week, and I realize that each of us has our own limits on what to learn about this film ahead of seeing it in the theater for ourselves.
For Skyfall, I read several threads and left the forum in October (I saw Skyfall asap, which was Dec. 1st here in Japan). I remember reading about location shoots and lots of photos on set and in the field. I remember being wary of headlines and learned to not like clapboard photos discussed in terms of "oh, so obviously this takes place near the end of the film." Speculation about explosions, sets on locations confirmed with photos but then lots of chat about what happens there ... sigh ... ETC.
It isn't easy, is it? If you want to know only a limited amount about the film before you see it, it is more difficult.
If you don't care about spoilers, and that does not ruin the first time viewing experience for you, great. Please share that, too.
Therefore, let's discuss (for just a few days) your own plan for handling news and speculation; your expectations, personal general limit of information you want to know ahead of time, what you will avoid or keep reading, etc.
For me, it goes like this: I want to know basics about actors, locations, and enjoy some photos - but I do not want to know much about the plot. Oh, that is the tricky part indeed.
My plan:
1) I've stopped reading the production thread. I don't know if I can stand to leave it alone completely; it will be tempting. But I don't want to read detailed scenarios, even detailed guessing about news we learn. Don't get me wrong - I definitely appreciate this thread, as it has been great and a good lead-up to Bond 24. And I think it will be valuable to be able to look back on, after the film comes out. But I have to figure out the balance of what I really want to know, and I'm going to take the more cautious route now.
2) I'm already wary of thread titles, and the film is still more than a year away. So I've decided to slow down, instead of clicking on any thread that catches my eye.
3) I'm going to try to get my news from the MI6 home page ("James Bond News" page) because it will give me basics in a timely manner, I think, and even so I'll be sort of skim reading those articles (already the latest one tells me a little more than I really wanted to know). So skim reading it will be. :)
* * * * * *
I don't mind knowing the name of the actors/actresses hired to play roles in Bond 24. I do not want to know many details about their characters, though (at least not as regards to the plot). I don't mind reading about the characters' personalities.
I am happy to learn of locations but do not want details about what is happening on those locations.
I do not want to know much about the plot. Which is why this gets difficult! Speculation about the plot will be strewn all over media like a bowl of spaghetti thrown at a wall, just trickling down here and there, messy and kind of everywhere.
When the trailer comes out, I will watch it and hope it does not give away major information regarding the plot (at least not plot twists or endings or demise of characters). I did watch Skyfall's trailer and somehow that did not spoil the film for me.
I'm very much looking forward to the press conference. Oh yes! Who is the main Bond girl?! :D
Whew! I think many of you are not as hesitant as I am regarding reading news and speculation. But please chime in and let us know how you will be handling all of this as we head towards Bond 24 ... still so far, yet beginning to feel a good deal nearer.
Cheers! :)>-
OTOH, pictures & production stuff is okay for me. I usually don't watch finished trailers at all, unless it's a movie I have no great desire to see in the theatre.
What's funny is that while the Bond franchise is closest to me of all film franchises, I suppose I care least about Bond spoilers. As a hardcore Bond fan I am so trained in deconstructing these films, the joy of watching them isn't merely in following the plot but in so much more. When through unavoidable Internet osmosis I learn of some detail or twist, I'm usually not really disappointed but even more curious to see how they'll do it. I knew that M was going to die and I was mostly excited to see when and how it would happen. I guess I experience a new Bond film on a totally different level than any other film, including Star Wars, M:I, X-Men, ...
If a full script leaks on the Internet, I stay away from that. Reading a Bond script before watching the film is insane. That's not merely a matter of having a few plot details spoiled but of combing through the film inch by inch. I do draw the line somewhere, you see, and this is definitely it. But when Bond 24 news is posted on this website, I will certainly read it and most likely comment on it. I'm not just a casual Bond fan; I live and breathe Bond. Staying away from news, rumours and spoilers is about as difficult for me as it is for Hugh Hefner to stay away from silicone on two legs. Like someone demoniacally possessed, I cannot fight the urges. That said, I won't actively pursue details we're really not supposed to know. Again, what I absorb, I do so because it is made easily available to me on this forum. Osmosis is practically unavoidable here, unless one goes completely dark for several months. And that I can't. I'm committed. ;-)
Yes, that has been my plan for the last few Bond films. I would like to know any actors and locations, but no details. Doubtless I will be watching the trailer, several times I can imagine, in the first few days. Then I will be "rationing" the trailer until the build up for B24. But Skyfall's trailer did give away much of the PTS, so we'll see,
Basically if it's on MI6's homepage I will skim read it. But I refuse to go into any B24 threads on here.
I would like to avoid listening to the main title song, as well, but that isn't going to happen.
Despite all my precautions, I learnt about Harris being Moneypenny (thanks Yahoo!), and I was rather miffed to see the big Skyfall lodge explosion on an article I was reading about MGW's passion for photography!
For Skyfall, I did not know about Eve/Moneypenny, so that was great. I loved hearing the theme song beforehand, so I hope to listen to it and enjoy it before this new film. Already, though, it is hard not to learn specific details - even when reading our MI6 James Bond News page. Of course they are going to disclose some things, but for me the latest article gave me 3 pieces of information I really would have preferred not to know
You did your best, royale65, but who would have guessed that the Skyfall lodge explosion would have been specifically mentioned (regarding blowing it up) in an article about MGW and photography. We just can't avoid things entirely, can we? :-w
I also enjoy learning a bit beforehand, so I understand what you are saying, too, DarthDimi. I want to have my own speculation to some extent, discuss things (especially hiring of actors) with friends here, etc. And chrisisall, if you avoid the trailers you are stronger than me - but you are right, so many (far too many!) trailers of films give away too much, including key elements. Skyfall's did give a lot about the PTS, but I ended up not minding that. I may just wait and read some members' comments about the trailer first, before actually seeing the trailer. That may help a bit. Hmmm.
UPDATE: My resolve to not read the production thread lasted little more than one day. Yes, I am weak. But it turns out some things being discussed right now regarding crew are very interesting to me! I'll just have to wing it and be careful. Not easy, though. It is hard, once plot is brought up, to get out quickly enough.
But I shall try to limit the plot details that I know beforehand, I guess that is what it comes down to for me. I don't really want to know what is coming up in the film ... except in the most vague of terms (at some point, there will be blah blah blah). I am happy to hear of the locations, which really have me quite excited for this one! :-bd
unavoidable Internet osmosis
Well put indeed.
and
I live and breathe Bond. Staying away from news, rumours and spoilers is about as difficult for me as it is for Hugh Hefner to stay away from silicone on two legs.
=))
@BeatlesSans as I said the sl most often is there to show how far the villain will go, but also to what extend Bond is threatened. Thus Aki is a proper sacrificial lamb. Plenty however indeed is just the mistaken one, and is quite unique in that sense.
On Bond 24: Well that's easy, as some may have noticed I have hardly any time to check out the forums, working up to 50-60 hours a week and trying to keep the missus happy at the same time. So avoiding spoilers never was this easy for me. I'd like to know the main girl of course, and maybe the locale's. but that's it. I'll watch the trailers and get excited then.
I am interested enough in all of the casting and location work (and I'm happy with what we know so far; great locations!) . I'm mainly trying to avoid plot spoilers.
This film is a long ways off, so I'm hoping I can remain at the same level of knowledge (from trailer and some threads) and ignorance (I did not know any major spoilers) going into Bond 24 close to the same as when I saw Skyfall. Skyfall was fresh and exciting for me.
I will probably read some reviews of members here regarding the Bond 24 trailer before I watch it. Trailers do notoriously give away too much, no matter what kind of film it is.
Good luck to all of us! :)>-
I pretty much expected that from you, my nordic friend. :)
I think we will have much more news in November, and things will get even more hectic around here!
The Real Story Why Norway Was Dropped from Bond 24:
EON was all set to film Bond 24 in Norway until their location scouting team was put off, rather sabotaged by a Norwegian troll. Yes, it looked like a troll, lurking in nearly every photo they took ... he appeared magically in the corner of every important shot, giving them a certain "finger gesture."
When leaving Norway sadly behind (it is so beautiful, minus the occasional troll), the team discovered that as the plane was taxing down the runway, there on top of the airport building was the same troll, with the same gesture. The flight attendants were duly asked to explain and they simply sighed and said, "Ah yes. That is our native thorn in our side, known as @Thunderfinger."
"Oh, that's what the gesture is ... hmmm."
"Well, actually ... he just wants you to pull on it, and then you would understand why he is called that. So sorry, ladies and gentlemen. We hope you do come back to our lovely country some day."
Austria beckoned and the rest is Bond history. >:)
*****
Enough of spamming up our thread (including my own spamming - ha!) ;)
The "Lambs" are there to bring a gritty realism to the films IMHO. And they usually slam into the audience like a bucket of ice water.
I always found Tilly to be very disturbing and I still cringe at her tragic death. Also the fact that Bond is responsible for it makes it that much harder.
Rosie was kinda annoying and we hardly got to know her. Ditto for Paris Carver.
I really liked Tippett and hated to see him killed. Sharkey is also a favorite along with Aki. Vejay, Ferrar, were also lovable guys and their deaths were heartfelt.
@Thunderfinger, you know I jest. :D I couldn't resist.
Both OHMSS69 and Thunderfinger: Do you try to avoid spoilers for an upcoming Bond film? If so, how? Any particular plan? It is getting tricky.
I remember people complaining that they did not want to know that Skyfall lodge was to get blown up
I do enjoy the location photos. I'm eagerly looking forward to the press conference (which cannot get here soon enough!); I just don't want many plot details. Hardly any would make me happy but I already know a little more than I'd like. I shall do my best, though.
I'm also trying to decide when to start my Bondathon. I do try to watch all of the films before the next one comes out. I may leave that for March.
Please share a bit your take on spoilers for Bond 24 - care? don't care? plans to avoid? I'm not watching the trailer until after I read some of our members' comments (just to see if they say it gave away too much or not). I do usually enjoy trailers, but so many films just give away key plot points often.
Please join us. About 2 more days regarding how to deal with (or not) Bond 24 spoilers.
Cheers! :)>-