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2. I don't know how you could come to another conclusion there. I mean really.
3. Have yet to read the books, can't comment.
4. Della is way too friendly. Then again, it is James Bond.
5. Felix seems like he broke his leg in a skiing accident, not lost it to a shark-wielding psychopath who raped and murdered his wife.
Oxycontin makes all things better. Ask Rush. :))
2) Cary can believe whatever she wants to believe. So can the rest of us. I believe Cary is mistaken.
3) Here we have what is probably the central controversy of this movie. I would remind my fellow Fleming purists that Bond is willing to hand in his resignation at the beginning of OHMSS (literary as well as cinematic) in order to continue his pursuit of Blofeld -- and that’s before the death of Tracy, therefore before the whole thing becomes personal. So I don’t have a problem with the idea of Bond going off on his own under these circumstances. But Bond should have been able to manipulate the circumstances a little more skillfully, to make the pursuit of Sanchez an officially authorized mission. Connery or Moore would have been able to swing that -- heck, even Lazenby was able to arrange a few weeks off to tend to “personal business.” Dalton should have as well.
4) Yes, probably. But hey, he’s Bond. It’s to be expected. Female hotel staff personnel fall all over themselves being friendly to him. Confirmed lesbians change their orientation for him. It just comes with the territory.
5) Yes, I’ve always had a problem with Felix’s happy-go-lucky attitude in that final scene. But I’m willing to accept @chrisisall’s explanation…everything else in this movie is about the drugs, so why not Leiter's mood in this final scene?
And finally: does anybody have any kind of explanation for the third skeleton? Anything at all? Seriously, I’m kind of baffled and would appreciate any light that can be shed on this mystery!
2) Perhaps Carey hasn't seen that many Bond movies? This is James Freaking Bond we're talking about here. Of course they went all the way! To be fair I suppose that she could be right because we don't actually see the deed being performed but that just doesn't sit right with me. I must disagree with her.
3) This is a tricky one. In the end I'm going to say that it makes sense for Dalton's Bond. We have already established that he can be a bit of a loose cannon and seems burnt out from the job in TLD. Those seeds that were planted have fully bloomed now and Bond goes off the deep end. I'm not sure I can really see Fleming's Bond taking things this far but he was never put in this specific situation.
4) Yes, it always seemed rather strange to me. Some people are more affectionate than others but she seems to be overdoing it a bit.
5) He's way too happy and it is one of the many things that I don't like about the ending of this film.
Glen did publish an autobiography in 2001 entitled "For My Eyes Only", but I don't know if that would make a mention of it. I don't tweet, but I did check Facebook and he does not have a page. Dalton does have a page that he checks in on, so I posed the question there and hopefully Tim himself or someone close to him will have something to say about it.
Great to see all the thesis responses thus far!
I'll have to add Timothy Dalton to my Facebook friends list then! Good thinking, Sir Henry!
2. Oh, they got it on. I mean come on…
3. It's never really bothered me, but if I think about it it would seem a bit out of character, but it is extraordinary circumstances and makes for a good film.
4. A wee bit over friendly and slightly annoying as well. Nice looking though!
5. Unfortunately out of step with the rest of the film, I suppose they wanted the audience to go home happy, but could we have had the ending but without Felix, or would the audience the thinking 'what about Felix?' And I really wish they had kept the original title Licence Revoked.
2. They definitely got it on. It was left to our lovely imaginations. I like Carey, but she is interpreting this other than what is obviously suggested (Bond movie, after all!).
3. Didn't bug me, but ... it does conflict with the Bond I knew from the novels. But, he was hell bent on revenge here. It wasn't a glaring inconsistency for me, but seems noticeably different once pointed out, yes.
4. Overly friendly, yeah, but I've been around one or two women like that. So not completely unrealistic. Not condoning it, mind you; I think it was too much. And annoying.
5. The most ridiculously wrong way to play that scene; it was a glaring error, in my opinion. Totally wrong for what Leiter has gone through; drugs or no drugs.
At the time I took it that there was someone behind the picture actually spying on them…but then it just remained unresolved. A curiosity.
1. Casino Royale- 4.33
2. Goldfinger- 4.30
3. From Russia With Love- 4.26
4. Skyfall (6/7 reviews)- 4.17
5. The Living Daylights- 4.11
6. Thunderball- 4.09
7. The Spy Who Loved Me- 4.06
8. Licence To Kill- 4.03
9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service- 3.99
10. For Your Eyes Only- 3.91
11. You Only Live Twice- 3.90
12. Live And Let Die- 3.81
13. GoldenEye- 3.75
14. Octopussy- 3.73
15. Tomorrow Never Dies- 3.63
16. Dr. No- 3.57
17. Quantum Of Solace- 3.42
18. A View To A Kill- 3.31
19. The World Is Not Enough- 3.17
20. The Man With The Golden Gun- 3.09
21. Diamonds Are Forever- 2.99
22. Moonraker- 2.96
23. Die Another Day- 2.70
Good morning fellow originals and guests! After @BeatlesSansEarmuffs recent review of Licence To Kill came in with a score of 39 out of 50, the rating moved down slightly from 4.05 to 4.03, which will keep the film at #8 in our group poll.
My continuous thanks to everyone who has participated in the thesis questions. Participation was back up this week so I assume posting a response deadline was helpful. Trivia will continue.
Regarding the polling of the 5 Licence To Kill thesis questions, which will include my views, here's the consensus-
1. In the PTS, some have conjectured that Sanchez had to have seen Bond when he looked back after Bond had captured his getaway plane, although all he could have seen when he really looks back is Bond's feet facing him. He certainly doesn't seem to recognize him at all when they first meet. Do those who feel Sanchez should have, have any merit to their argument?
Well, one respondent thought it could have happened. When Bond first lands on the plane he is facing Sanchez, who takes a quick look back. The following shot shows Bond's feet facing him when he got a better look. Let's just say that the editing wasn't that great here. The better point brought up was that Sanchez had obviously gotten soft and thought he was invulnerable, because in reality guys like him barely trust anyone they haven't known for a long time. I don't think Killifer was looking to tip him off to Bond and further ingratiate himself, I always thought that he thought his 2 million in blood money was enough and he just wanted to get away in one piece before Sanchez changed his mind, or his former colleagues figured out he sold out and came looking for him while his trail was still warm. I know I would have. Anyway, Sanchez in fairness was suspicious, but not quite enough of a stranger with the same dark hair he did see, who all of a sudden checked into his town without references, and just happened to deposit the same amount of money in his bank that was just stolen from his drunken cohort. That question should have been asked. The bigger question was how drunk was Krest? Let's put it this way. Have you ever seen a manta ray making bubbles? Only in Holly, er, Churubusco. Still, we've seen situations in the films that have made far less sense in the way of common sense, including several 6 years later that have been proven to be completely unbelievable, so this didn't really hurt the film for me all things considered.
2. We know that Bond slept with Lupe, but in "Bond Girls Are Forever", Carey Lowell says that Pam didn't. Yet they are seen kissing and then disappearing below the deck of a boat drifting along without gas, which gave me a different impression altogether. What did you think?
Dear Carey. No one believes your quaint rationale. You don't need to see two people in bed to see that the action, involving I would assume a condom (I guess Trojan wasn't invited for sponsorship which would have made a whole lot of sense in the philosophy back then) in a key support role, obviously took place below deck. And it makes more sense this way as far as her to be pissed off that Bond slept with Lupe. Although his prior romance with Kara was a nice change of pace, it was good to see Bond have multiple conquests again. Two per film works just fine for me, especially if he's with the main one at the end which makes it perfect.
3. According to some who have read the Fleming books, Bond's refusal to obey M's orders to go to a mission in Istanbul, instead electing to exact revenge on Sanchez, is antithetical to the character. Do you agree? Or is it just an overreaction by Flemimg purists to another cinematic adaptation and expansion of the "Live And Let Die" novel where Bond does indeed pursue revenge, albeit under the auspices of an assigned mission, where the villain who did this happens to be his assigned target anyway?
Those of us familiar with the novels can certainly understand the conflict. Bond is almost without fail "Her Majesty's loyal terrier" and a guy who mostly follows orders. Yet @Beatles sagely brings up OHMSS and here indeed we have a direct Fleming reference to Bond handing in his resignation due to a major disagreement with M, although the cinematic version reverses the literary roles the characters play. So I think we can safely say that those who've complained otherwise have overlooked the prior precedent in a rush to rationalize their opinion.
4. Is it me, or did Della Leiter seem to be a little "too friendly" with her best man? I'd especially like to hear what the ladies think about this.
While most of us agree that Della was a bit overly friendly, we'll chalk it up to cinematic Bond's good looks and irresistible charms making yet another woman swoon for him. Personally, I thought she lingered a bit too long with the kisses during the cake scene and if I'd been Leiter and seen that I wouldn't be too pleased with her, but no harm done.
5. If your new wife was gang raped and murdered, and you were maimed for life, would you be as jovial as the still hospital bed bound Leiter at the end, merely because your best pal satisfied your need for revenge and killed the bastards responsible? Basically, the question is was his attitude out of place, or was the revenge taken enough reason for his smile?
It's about unanimous that Felix's happiness really bugged everyone and it left a bad taste in everyone's mouths. I think @chrisisall makes a very good point here when he refers to Hedison not knowing the full context of why he was in that bed, but it also seems to me that maybe he was so happy with his paycheck and making Leiter history that he forgot to ask the very simple question of "how did Felix get here?" Perhaps it would have made a difference in how he played his part. I don't think it was the drugs making him happy. For me it would have been much more appropriate to see the scene go down this way- BOND: "Sanchez and his people are finished Felix. You just worry about getting better and I'll stay in touch." LEITER: (with a brief but wry smile)- "Thanks James. For everything you did. By the way, I heard from M. I think he has a job for you." I know the winking fish also wasn't welcomed by many, but by that time the old Sicilian proverb "you can't put the shit back in the donkey" was in full force so it didn't much matter. I think EON was very anxious to not have the film end on a OHMSS-like downer, and to give the viewer an "all's well that's ends well" happy ending. I was fine with Bond smiling and laughing with Lupe until he saw how hurt Pam was and leaping into the pool to be with her, I was even fine with the fish winking to let us know that a happy ending was to come for them. But not with Leiter. Truly the only thing in the entire movie I thought was totally out of place in the context of emotional reality. Otherwise, it wasn't nearly enough to ruin my enjoyment of the film, a rare poor ending yet the film's many strengths very much overshadow this one moment and the film remains one of my favorites to this day.
That will wrap up our revisit of Licence To Kill and now we will move into the Brosnan era, but before that there is one bit of news to report. Beatles sent me a note to advise this weekend is one of those he'd mentioned before involving prearranged plans, so we won't be having a new review or any of the usual trivia and thesis goodies this weekend and early next week. By next weekend though, he will post his review of GoldenEye and we will move forward. Until then, if anyone has any questions to ask or any ideas to keep us busy, I'll be around to answer or comment.
Have a great weekend my friends!
On Pam Bouvier, well sure she goes down with him. And it's one of the things that always bothered me. First, she wants to be seen as professional by Bond, and seems rather hostile. then, all of a sudden, with no proper flirting, she goes down with him.. now that;'s out of character. Della was just a bit tipsy, that's all ;-)
Oh, and on Lupe. People say her acting isn't good, but to me she's supposed to over act a bit when she claims she loves Bond, as it's clear already she's not going for the person, but for the life... I find her thus very convincing.
I don't think Sanchez could have identified Bond. That seems a bit reaching to me.
Pam slept with Bond. Oh yea, she did. That's why she appears so jealous when Lupe comes in and declares her love for Bond.
It does seem out of character. But Dalton handled it so well that it's clear it's emotion and an anomaly.
That bit about Della always annoys me. She seems fake nice and a bit too familiar. I always chalked it up to the actress being green and overly excited. Maybe she was supposed to be an ex-party girl. That would explain it. She certainly doesn't come across as someone refined.
I get what everyone sees and thinks about this but I just assumed that Felix, at that point, in addition to heavy sedation, he hadn't been given all the information yet. Sometimes the details of such traumatic events are not given to those who are still recovering from such a serious injury.
The Bond 'goes rogue' aspect of LTK has always annoyed me. Bond should have been just put on extended leave (understandable in the circumstances) and pursued Sanchez in his own time. M should have allowed him to do what needed to be done, as long as HMSS weren't implicated. The way he goes ape and leaps over the balcony into the bushes just feels totally out of character.
Yes, I rather bored myself (and doubtless many others) by banging on about how disappointing I thought SF was. Speaking of which, I almost chocked on my cornflakes when I saw the rankings above. Any way, there's nothing that brings people together like a bit of Brosnan bashing, and judging by Brozza's performance in the ratings, there'll be few objections round here to me putting the boot in once more.
Absolutely.
Any way, no matter how much I'm disappointed by the last one, I'm always looking forward to the next!
Okay, I better step in now before things get out of control in the future. First of all, while we may occasionally put the boot to certain films, any objections to the actor themselves need to be relevant and said in good taste. I've seen the bashing free for all elsewhere with Skyfall and Brosnan and that's not going to happen here. Anyone who doesn't comply in the spirit of what we do here will be asked to leave. I have done so already and our mods, one of whom is a panel member and original, will enforce that if need be.
Skyfall. Yes it has it's faults, and perhaps it will drop lower in our collective view as time goes by, but for the moment we collectively feel it was a very enjoyable entry whose strengths outweighed it's weaknesses. A lot of people elsewhere on this site feel the same way, something it's detractors still don't get for whatever reason. Personally, I wouldn't rate the film as high as it is, but for me it's in the 7-9 range and brings the character back to where he should be in many ways, it has an outstanding and highly enjoyable villain in Bardem, a classically gorgeous Bond girl in Marlohe, it brings back Moneypenny and Q, the old office in the end, a few gadgets, and gives Dench a proper farewell while introducing Fiennes, who I have great hopes for. If we can get back to the gun barrel in the beginning and a girl in the end, while hopefully returning to the QUANTUM concept in the next film, I'll probably be very happy with it. A world with Bond is a lot better than one without, something every fan everywhere would agree with.
Brosnan. Some of us love him, some of us are lukewarm at best like myself. I think it's generally accepted here that his first two films are far better than his last two and the ratings thus far confirm that as a general view. On a personal level, some of us would have some of his films in their top 10, for myself I would not. But we'll eventually get to the personal versus group aspects at a later date, probably around the holidays if not then that will kick off 2014. Hopefully by then we'll be getting more substantial information about BOND24 and that will engender more conversation. I'd still like to get into the books and discuss those on their own merits as well as how they relate to the film versions. I'm always looking for new ideas to keep this moving forward, and eventually we'll have a new film to discuss while it's in production, a review, and thoughts on the future. Some have already called this thread "legendary" and I'm going to do all I can to keep those good thoughts towards it going strong.
:))
I am not a fan of Brosnan's 007 films and some need to stop blaming the scipts. I never understood why he seemed so flat as Bond (at least to me and a few others). I give you that Brosnan was an immensly popular Bond at the time and many fans still love him but I thought he was a lightweight and his movies during the time (Nineties) was a low point.
Sorry, but Broz delivered, and if you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.
8-|
I agree with most of the comments. I don't think there is anyway in hell that Sanchez would have seen Bond's face. Looking out the back of a Cessna, one's vision is very limited.
I thought Delia was overly "chummy" with her groom's Best Man.
It is easy to assume that Bond and Pam had some sex below decks of the speed boat and this was rather "out of character". I did think it was strange that she would just warm up to this guy who she perceives as a total asshole. Maybe all the running and shooting turned her on. Maybe she figured that they were going on a suicide mission and decided she'd better have some hot sex prior. Look at bullfighters and warriors, they may be going to their deaths soon and might as well make love beforehand.
Interesting....
Somehow I don't see Brozzer as literary Bond either, and for me he played Moore's game of popcorn Bond and lost quite a few hands. Granted, in his last 2 films he didn't have a whole lot to work with. I'd still rate him 5th out of the 6 Bonds.
No one said you couldn't venture an opinion. But if you can't do it without bashing, like I just demonstrated above, then it's best that you stay clear.