SirHenryLeeChaChing's For Original Fans - Favorite Moments In NTTD (spoilers)

NicNac

chrisisall wrote:

My main beef with the rankings is Dr. No being so low and Skyfall being so high. If you just switched 'em I'd say okay. ;)

The low ranking of Dr No is no real surprise. When we ranked then we had to highlight different aspects of the film. It's difficult to rank DN high on 'action' 'locations' and 'gadgets'. Therefore it loses out despite being a terrific little film.

I like to think I did my bit in getting YOLT high up, and LTK lower down. ;-)

Sandy

I personally love Dr. No and have a soft spot for YOLT, they are both top entries in my opinion albeit for different reasons.

royale65

Indeed, Dr No, is the epitome of the sums being bigger than it's parts, methinks.

Thanks to @DarthDimi and the mod team for changing this thread's title. As Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson honoured Cubby with "Albert R. Broccoli's EON Productions", our community shall honour Greg with "SirHenryLeeChaChing's For Original Fans" forever more.

4EverBonded

Well, I spent about 20 minutes just reading from the beginning of this thread. It is quite interesting to read again SirHenry's first thoughts from starting this thread, and those comments by everybody chiming in at first. If you have time, it may be time well spent to dip back into some of these early pages here. I do recommend that! :)

For our current topic, the final rankings from the core Originals, I have a question: Is anyone surprised at #s 20 thru 23? I'm not. But I am a tad surprised that TWINE came out below AVTAK. It sure doesn't for me, personally.
I do like, though, that there is a good mixture in the top 10. I think we all tried to be as objective as we could, rating within the categories SirHenry chose.

Also, perhaps we could plan on comparing the Originals rankings to our own personal rankings ... but starting when? I think maybe pretty soon.

NicNac

royale65 wrote:

Indeed, Dr No, is the epitome of the sums being bigger than it's parts, methinks.

Thanks to @DarthDimi and the mod team for changing this thread's title. As Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson honoured Cubby with "Albert R. Broccoli's EON Productions", our community shall honour Greg with "SirHenryLeeChaChing's For Original Fans" forever more.

Yes, I went to change the title and add his name, then noticed it was done. I began to wonder if it had always been like that and I simply hadn't noticed. Well done Dimi ;-)

pachazo

4EverBonded wrote:

Is anyone surprised at #s 20 thru 23? I'm not.

No, I'm not surprised either. I agree with them all except MR. I know that particular film isn't for everyone though.

CommanderRoss

4EverBonded wrote:

Well, I spent about 20 minutes just reading from the beginning of this thread. It is quite interesting to read again SirHenry's first thoughts from starting this thread, and those comments by everybody chiming in at first. If you have time, it may be time well spent to dip back into some of these early pages here. I do recommend that! :)

For our current topic, the final rankings from the core Originals, I have a question: Is anyone surprised at #s 20 thru 23? I'm not. But I am a tad surprised that TWINE came out below AVTAK. It sure doesn't for me, personally.
I do like, though, that there is a good mixture in the top 10. I think we all tried to be as objective as we could, rating within the categories SirHenry chose.

Also, perhaps we could plan on comparing the Originals rankings to our own personal rankings ... but starting when? I think maybe pretty soon.

I believe AVTAk is a far better film then fans think. Moore is too old, yes, and whatshername might scream like a piglet, but if you take the parts, you'll find the locations are great, the villain is epic, the music stunning. Dr. No may be more then it's parts, AVTAK has more value in it's parts then it's sum, many find. I love it, but that's another matter.

other then that I think it's an extremely balanced list, so no surprises at the bottom end.

Getafix

Poor old Dr No. It seems to get so little love around here. I guess the scoring system was against it in this case.

4EverBonded

And here once again, to have them on this page, are the final rankings of the Originals for all 23 James Bond films (thanks again to @Samuel001 for tallying them up):

1. Casino Royale- 4.36
2. Goldfinger- 4.30
3. From Russia With Love- 4.26
4. Skyfall- 4.20
5. The Living Daylights- 4.11
6. Thunderball- 4.09
7. The Spy Who Loved Me- 4.06
8. Licence To Kill- 4.03
9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service- 3.99
10. For Your Eyes Only- 3.91
11. You Only Live Twice- 3.90
12. Live And Let Die- 3.81
13. GoldenEye- 3.80
14. Octopussy- 3.73
15. Tomorrow Never Dies- 3.71
16. Dr. No- 3.57
17. Quantum Of Solace- 3.43
18. A View To A Kill- 3.31
19. The World Is Not Enough- 3.20
20. The Man With The Golden Gun- 3.09
21. Diamonds Are Forever- 2.99
22. Moonraker- 2.96
23. Die Another Day- 2.70

Thank you again, @CommanderRoss, for giving us the very nice round-up on the thesis questions.

4EverBonded

SKYFALL THESIS QUESTIONS

CommanderRoss wrote:

First off, @4Ever, thank you for taking this up!
All in all I took some time to tally up the results of SirHenry's thesis. Of course his opinion is missing so I will only give an as neutral as I can tallying. So here goes, in memory of Greg:

1. The reintroduction of the Moneypenny character seemed to have followed a trend of "empowerment" by adding field duties to her resume. Comments from Sam Mendes and others seem to indicate that her return to strictly desk type duties that the end of Skyfall alluded to may not be written in stone. The thesis question here is, should Moneypenny again physically participate in car chases and other action sequences, or she largely be desk bound and be kept as a non-combatant?

A huge majority prefers Moneypenny to stay deskbound in future, perhaps with the odd exemption gere and there when it suits the plot like Llwellyn's Q did now and then.

2. While our new Q is less the buffoon of the Cleese era, I felt that his credibility took a hit when Silva outwitted him. More disturbing to me is this era of "political correctness" and the temptation to have the character reflect Ben Whishaw's real life status as a gay man to promote diversity. Having seen in prior entries that Q certainly appreciates the ladies in a heterosexual sense, the question is both how would you feel if the "gay Q" scenario happened, and does this level of PC belong in a film series that has thrived just fine without it?

Well, most of you feel nothing, when it comes down to Q's sexuality, as most of you consider it something for Q, and not for a Bond movie. Q should be a-sexual.

3. The eternal question I will always have- did you agree with the decision to kill off Severine? Please explain your answer and specifically what you would have done if your answer is "no".
Again most understand Severine's early death, and still most do regret it. Yes, it served a purpose, but some nagging feeling that hers should have been a larger role remains.

4. Silva's escape plot I think we all can agree was implausible. Now you be the writer. What would you have done?
Most agree here that Silva should've had some more help from the outside. He as able to get so much help anyway, why not use those goons to help him escape?


5. A two part question. On a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 being the highest, how would you rate Newman's score? Please feel free to detail as to what you liked and if you didn't like it, what was missing for you? Second, do you want Newman back or would you prefer a return to David Arnold or another composer entirely?
What's the score's Gearoge Dawe's? well, when we round up 4Ever's score to a 3,5 we get five three's, two three's and a half and a two, making it a round three. On Newman's return not too many await. David Arnold's still fave with 4 and a half votes, Newman only gets two and a half and others end up with two. not that convincing. I really would've loved to know what SirHenry's thoughts were.

6. Much has been made about Mendes' acknowledgement that the film reflects his admiration for the recent "Batman" films. And yet Bond films have always survived just fine on their own special formula. So with Skyfall appearing to have brought Bond full circle from CR/QOS and with that in mind, name any three "formula elements" lacking in the current films you would like to see return. For example, they brought back Moneypenny and Q, so what else should return and how would the next adventure look to you?

Well, this is just a best-off:
Highest on the list is the gunbarrel at the start. Closely followed by a Girl in Bond's arms instead of dead. Then the numbers are not rounded anymore, but the gest is that most want a classic adventure. No focus on Bond's emotions, but a Thunderball like story.

I hope I did some justice to SirHenry's thesis questions.

I wanted to post the thesis questions and summation of our thoughts (thanks again, @CommanderRoss!) for us to take one more look at these before moving on. And I wanted to elaborate a bit on #5 - Newman's score. I bolded some of it.
I realize now that SirHenry talked plenty about Newman's score, and his opinion - and great information, explanations, etc. - about Newman's effort can be found on a few threads, I feel certain. Anyway, here is something SirHenry mentioned that I found today and I wanted to share this with everyone (especially because you mentioned you would have loved to have known what SirHenry's thoughts were, @CommanderRoss).
***
In June 2013, SirHenry said the following:
I fear that if Mendes comes back, so will Newman. Sam seems to get into comfort zones with people for different things and it also appears that Newman is his "house composer".

I'd also prefer Arnold to return and if not, then someone else other than Newman. And I'd add Arnold's first effort in TND (and a better first Bond effort than Newman's) to CR and QOS as Arnold soundtracks that are not only more memorable than SF, but also sound more Bondian. Newman's good stuff in SF isn't demonstrably better than Arnold's except for in a technical sense, and that doesn't replace feel and emotional content. Being a musician I can understand those who say Newman is better simply because he's more technical, but on that premise alone it's just musical snobbery.

And then there's the Barry dilemma. Some people think that no one other than Barry should be allowed to deliver "Bondian" music in the vein he created. Whereas I am one of those who appreciates someone who creates Bondian music yet tries to add something of themselves, hence Arnold with techno, and something you also hear Newman doing. So could it be conjectured that maybe, just maybe, Newman followed a little of Arnold's lead, which came from Barry in the first place? Or does 11 Academy nominations, mostly garnered because his family are Hollywood elite which makes many of those noms more of a political deal than recognition of the actual music in question, trump that?
***
I know SirHenry liked Jellyfish and Komodo Dragon tracks, but felt the theme song woefully underused (I think it was indeed just the once). Anyway, I thought it was good to post his earlier comments here again as it is relevant to that thesis question.

4EverBonded

Fellow Originals and everybody reading SirHenry's thread here ~
I have a few questions, so here I go boldly declaring my ignorance in the area of music, with my questions - regarding the soundtrack:

1) I think I read that when buying the soundtrack, it does not include the theme song ... is that correct?

2) And is that usual for Bond films? Does one always have to buy the theme song separately? Speaking as someone who obviously has not bought soundtracks before (oh, the shame of it! I know, but moving on ...), I'd really like to know.

Do you have to buy both? I bet some of you, quite a few, have many/all of the Bond soundtracks. I want to invest in a Blu-ray this spring and I also want to pick up some soundtracks, including Skyfall's. (I have a compilation of all the theme songs, except Skyfall, but no actual soundtracks.) For example, I adore the theme song to YOLT; is it on the soundtrack? If any one can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

Oh, and:

3) Which is your very favorite Bond soundtrack? I'm really interested to hear that.

I was just thinking this morning about SirHenry's extensive musical knowledge in general, not just Bondian. I can sadly add nothing in that area, except for my personal preferences and, well, my questions. So as we discuss the Bond films, when the topic of music comes up I'd appreciate those of you are are musicians now or previously, or who have that musical background and experience, to really speak up. I think more readers than just myself would appreciate that. Thanks.

We can move on to sharing our personal rankings with the group ranking soon; I'd just appreciate a little more info on Bond film soundtracks, as we wrap our our Skyfall revisit and check out the Originals final rankings of all the Bond films.

Cheers!

WillyGalore

1. No, Adele's Skyfall is not on the soundtrack because;

2. Thomas Newman had no involvement with the theme song so it does not appear although the themes to TND and DAD appeared on their respective soundtracks despite the fact that Arnold didn't collaborate with Sheryl Crow or Madonna so I'm not sure why Skyfall is different.

3. My fav Bond soundtracks are pretty much anything by John Barry but in particular YOLT, OHMSS and AVTAK.

4EverBonded

Thanks, @WillyGalore!

I think Barry did a very lovely job with AVTAK (even though not my fav film) and I do want that one for sure, along with YOLT and TSWLM (not Barry, I know, but I like it). I don't think anyone tops Barry, mind you.

So TND and DAD do have the theme songs ... but do all the other Bond soundtracks have the theme songs? Was Skyfall really the exception? Can anybody answer that question? I am curious if Skyfall soundtrack is the only one that does not have the theme song on the actual soundtrack.

WillyGalore

4EverBonded wrote:

Thanks, @WillyGalore!

I think Barry did a very lovely job with AVTAK (even though not my fav film) and I do want that one for sure, along with YOLT and TSWLM (not Barry, I know, but I like it). I don't think anyone tops Barry, mind you.

So TND and DAD do have the theme songs ... but do all the other Bond soundtracks have the theme songs? Was Skyfall really the exception? Can anybody answer that question? I am curious if Skyfall soundtrack is the only one that does not have the theme song on the actual soundtrack.

It's perhaps the greatest compliment that even for a film as bad as AVTAK, Barry can still produce an absolutely cracking score. Elevates the film much more than it deserves.

I would also be interested to know why Skyfall doesn't appear on the soundtrack if someone knows?

4EverBonded

I think we are all ready to blame Newman. Not being in the business or privy to anything about the making of Skyfall, I can only guess. I think this was probably discussed on another thread; but I'd like very much to hear what people have to say about it on here.

WillyGalore

4EverBonded wrote:

I think we are all ready to blame Newman. Not being in the business or privy to anything about the making of Skyfall, I can only guess. I think this was probably discussed on another thread; but I'd like very much to hear what people have to say about it on here.

I'm actually one of the very few that really liked the job Thomas Newman did. I'd personally love to see him return for B24, but that only looks 50/50 at best right now.

Me and Greg often had debates over SF's score because he wasn't a big fan of it.

4EverBonded

I liked plenty of it, but I felt that Newman could do better - in particular, I do want the theme song woven in more than once, in variations, and I want a full Bond theme at some action point. I won't mind Newman returning if he gives us more of those things. I'd like a little more emotion or inspiring, stronger sections (I do adore "Komodo Dragon"). I do think his music fits the scenes quite well, though, for the most part.

I have been looking at other threads and other sites, trying to find specific reasons. Not much to share yet, but I did just find on Showbiz411.com from Oct 2012 this comment in a brief article by Roger Friedman who writes for that site. His quote (but I added the bold print):

Get this: the “Skyfall” song will not be on Thomas Newman’s score album, coming on Sony. That was the deal Adele made. “Skyfall” will just be a single, and one day appear on her greatest hits. But it won’t be included with other James Bond merchandising. So the single is the only way to get it. And that’s why it will be number 1 for a long, long time.

So I won't be blaming Newman for this. :D

( and I am having multiple posting/computer issues ... sorry!)

pachazo

Isn't that the same thing that Chris Cornell did with YKMN? Why do artists choose to do this? Is it about having the "rights" to the song if it's not included on the soundtrack? Perhaps someone more familiar with the music industry could enlighten me. I've always found it a bit jarring when the title song is not included.

4EverBonded

I agree, I really wish it was always included.
Any info is appreciated, in case someone else can enlighten us a bit more.

WillyGalore

Seeing as Arnold co-wrote and co-produced You Know My Name, I'm confused as to why the song never appeared on the official soundtrack. Very odd decision not to include it.

4EverBonded

Yes, that is a good point. Arnold was involved with that one. Hmmm.
Show biz/music biz - drat!

Soundofthesinners

WillyGalore wrote:

Seeing as Arnold co-wrote and co-produced You Know My Name, I'm confused as to why the song never appeared on the official soundtrack. Very odd decision not to include it.

Chris Cornell didn't want it to, because he wanted it to remain 'his' or something, and they couldn't put it on there without his approval.

Murdock

More money most likely.

4EverBonded

Like with Adele, I guess, she (and, I suppose, Chris) wanted to retain full rights or a stronger percentage of the rights. What were they trying to make sure did't happen? The tune of Skyfall or You Know My Name being used in commercials, or something? I wonder what the concern was for them to insist on that. If I were the artist, I would be happy for my theme song to be on the soundtrack - oh wait, that does mean less money for me, doesn't it? No one would have to buy my single or my albums, just the soundtrack to get particular song. Surely, this is not just about money. Yechh.

So, yeah, Skyfall can be on her all hits album, but this is a Bond film, for Pete's sake. It is not some cheap or second rate film series without a longstanding history. So I wonder if this means Skyfall will not be on any future compilation cd of Bond theme songs?

It must be regarding money or wanting total control or something like that. Sad, really. Or am I missing something? Does anyone agree with Adele's and Chris's decision? I'd like to know, from their perspective, why that was so important to them.

Dragonpol2

I think it will appear in time as Chris' CR song did on the Bond 50 Compilation. It must be regarding the single sales, I'd hazard a guess. Every singer worth their salt wants to be Number 1 in the Singles Chart or whatever they call it nowadays. I think it comes down to that, especially for Adele anyway. Why would anyone buy the single if it was also available on a compilation at the same time? Simple marketing, I guess, but I know it does rather suck, but revenues for popular music are waning (illegal downloads etc.) and so this will probably become the norm. A few years down the line, I'm sure that Adele will be only too happy to have it added to a Bond compilation album out in time for Bond 24 in 2015, wouldn't we agree?

4EverBonded

I agree. But I wouldn't bet on a new Bond compilation album in time for Bond 24. I just think that will take longer.

Dragonpol2

4EverBonded wrote:

I agree. But I wouldn't bet on a new Bond compilation album in time for Bond 24. I just think that will take longer.

Perhaps. Only time will tell.

4EverBonded

All right, folks, shall we move on a bit? Anyone still wanting to comment on the theme songs - which is their favorite, or how they feel about Skyfall not being on the soundtrack - please do still comment.

But I would like begin looking at comparing our personal rankings with the Originals rankings.

I think the ratings from the Original members who participated in reviewing all of the Bond films is interesting. The results are not so jarring as to have many surprises. Dr. No has been mentioned by several as being ranked too low. What stands out for me really is the mixture of Bond films in the top 10. Yes, we were constrained by the categories of the reviews, which was set up by SirHenry. But none of us rated the oldest films the best simply because of nostalgia for us. And the categories SirHenry set up were diverse categories and gave us good form to follow. I can see that by trying to be objective about something like "sadism" I could then score a film highly when it had plenty of that, like I did for LTK, even though I personally dislike that particular aspect of any film.

So, this week let's share our personal rankings of the films - either in full or in part. You can list your entire ranking, or you can just talk about where you rate a film compared to the Originals list.

I will start off, by listing my top 12 and comparing it to the Originals top 12. Let me say, the top 5 do change around for me, as do the bottom 4. My list is not set in concrete. But I ranked the Bond films as my personal favorites, not as to which film I think is the best film over all. I have at least one for each Bond in the top 10, excluding Lazenby's. (I am one of the few on here who do not care for OHMSS). My Dr. No is at #9. SirHenry's favorite, Goldfinger, is at #11. My #1 was From Russia With Love for a long time, but then along came what is for me, a near perfect version of Casino Royale.

So it seems as a group, the Originals ranked 4 films a good bit higher than me: Goldfinger, Thunderball, OHMSS, and License to Kill. And I do find Pierce's first two to be excellent, and continually enjoyable, Bond films; so I ranked those higher than the Originals. The Originals have Goldeneye at 13 and Tomorrow Never Dies at 15.

My Ranking ~
1. Casino Royale
2. From Russia With Love
3. Skyfall
4. Goldeneye
5. The Spy Who Loved Me
6. Tomorrow Never Dies
7. For Your Eyes Only
8. The Living Daylights
9. Dr. No
10. Live and Let Die
11. Goldfinger
12. Octopussy

The Originals ~
1. Casino Royale- 4.36
2. Goldfinger- 4.30
3. From Russia With Love- 4.26
4. Skyfall- 4.20
5. The Living Daylights- 4.11
6. Thunderball- 4.09
7. The Spy Who Loved Me- 4.06
8. Licence To Kill- 4.03
9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service- 3.99
10. For Your Eyes Only- 3.91
11. You Only Live Twice- 3.90
12. Live And Let Die- 3.81

Please give us your own comparisons! Thanks for participating.

Let's spend this week (or so) sharing our personal rankings of the films - either in full or in part. You can list your entire ranking, or just the top 10 or 12 like I did, for example - or you can just talk about where you rank a film compared to the Originals ranking.
I'm really interested in your your own ranking and seeing where it matches or differs from the Originals group.

Cheers!

Thunderfinger

I recently added up an average score for all 23 films ranked in the "Rank the Bond films" thread since the release of SF. So to compare this Originals ranking with the average of the community as a whole, here is the difference.

1. Casino Royale- 3rd on average
2. Goldfinger- 5
3. From Russia With Love- 1
4. Skyfall- same
5. The Living Daylights- 7
6. Thunderball- 8
7. The Spy Who Loved Me- 10
8. Licence To Kill-11
9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service- 2
10. For Your Eyes Only- 12
11. You Only Live Twice-14
12. Live And Let Die- 13
13. GoldenEye- 9
14. Octopussy- 15
15. Tomorrow Never Dies- 18
16. Dr. No- 6
17. Quantum Of Solace- same
18. A View To A Kill- 22
19. The World Is Not Enough- 16
20. The Man With The Golden Gun- 19
21. Diamonds Are Forever- 20
22. Moonraker- 21
23. Die Another Day-same

4EverBonded

Thank you for your efforts, @Thunderfinger! :) And thanks for bolding the 2 that have the biggest difference.
So these rankings being from another thread, it would not be the same exact comparison as we used different categories for ranking. (I'll go look at the other thread soon - were there categories? Or just a listing of films, as personal preferences? Either way, yes, it is interesting to compare the Originals list with an average of what members ranked the films on the other thread.

I'd like to ask folks, especially the ones who have regularly commented on this thread but also all of our members, to take time to look and compare this week. So ... two objectives for us:

1) Please do compare the Originals rankings with your own personal rankings - I'd like that to be the most discussed topic for the next week because this is what this particular thread is about: to find out how Original members ranked the films (with all of our detailed reviews done now) and compare it to your own list. Again, you can post your entire list, or just discuss part of it, compared to the Originals.

2) Then, please feel free to comment on the Originals rankings compared to the average of rankings that @Thunderfinger has kindly posted, from the other thread.

But - as these are two different sets of rankings to compare with - and especially to follow SirHenry's direction, let's talk about objective #1 first. And of course you can definitely discuss both #1 and #2 in the same post. (I'm a tad surprised, for example, that OHMSS ranked #2 from the other thread.)

All comments are appreciated - if you don't feel like posting your whole ranking, you don't have to. Just discuss what you'd like to about these. Thanks!