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I like the film, even if it is grim in nature and I think that you are correct not to blame Dalton as every after can only work with what he is given in terms of script and plot. The same went for Brosnan IMHO.
Like I've said before I did used to have Kill near the very top but now its firmly in the middle.
I think he's more balanced in TLD.
What's ironic about it? I totally agree about the Jill death scene and this was one of the points I was making in relation to Severine's death in SF as well - i.e. Connery conveyed pathos and steely resolve, which seemed a much more appropriate and believable response. Connery is my favourite Bond. I rate nearly all the Connery films above LTK. Yes, there is huge variety in Connery's performance - at his best he is a brilliant screen actor.
I was never a fan of Pam.
I personally like the touch of believable romance in The Living Daylights very much. I did enjoy Pam as a Bond girl, too (just not her stupid short haircut) and I liked her and Bond together.
You may say anything you'd like, but I'd also like to throw out 2 questions: :-B
1. What parts of either of Dalton's Bond films would you completely eliminate? If any.
For example, for me - the happy Felix and winking fish would be gone entirely from LTK (those are the most glaring for me).
2. If you could only make one change (broadly speaking, not just eliminating something) about Dalton's films, what would it be? If no changes at all, just say so. :)
For me, the one thing I would change in LTK is the uneven tone. Go gritty and realistic the whole way, or lighten it a whole level all the way around (not to the former Moore standard, but more in line with TLD).
All thoughts are welcome as we finish our Dalton era discussions.
Cheers! :-bd
LTK- I would eliminate the ending completely. I would have it end right there in Mexico, er Isthmus, after Bond kills Sanchez. It has always bothered me how soon Bond got his job back without any consequences. Plus, it would have been perfect to end the film ambiguously considering that this was Dalton's last and the six year gap was coming. Hindsight is twenty twenty though.
2) I don't have much to add here because I agree with you completely on this one. I would also change the uneven tone of LTK.
Also, @4EverBonded I'm surprised that you didn't choose to eliminate the part where Sanchez whips Lupe. I remember how you've mentioned that it has always disturbed you.
1) TLD
What would I eliminate ? The Aston Martin scenes
2) LTK
Lupe's line: "I love James so much". That just did nothing for me.
I meant that I don't think Dalton is particularly "subtle" at times in that scene. I think Connery's performance overall is the more effective of the two. Dalton sometimes seems a bit too dramatic to me.
The Living Daylights is a more classic outing, although he has layers of depth, subtleties, to his characterization, whilst Licence To Kill, gives us a more animalistic interpretation, where Bond loses his sheen of sophistication, exposing the blunt instrument beneath. For most of the movie Bond fights with his heart, the personal nature of the story clouding his judgement, making his aim sloppy. It is only once Bond learns about the stinger missiles is he finally able to treat his vendetta as a mission, and he finally gains control of the situation.
As for your suggestion to end the film after he kills Sanchez - I would have loved that! Dalton killing Sanchez was so great, that entire buildup and scene. And I do like Pam arriving in the truck. He and Pam could have driven off together in it and the film end there; I would have much preferred that, yes.
Yes, Pam's haircut bugged me. I hated it with a passion; still do. [-( Change of style in clothing was fine, but the cut was jarring, rather unflattering, mannish, just too exteme, and annoying. Yes a haircut can be annoying - if it is so awful that the viewer notices it and keeps thinking about it. Her character was well portrayed by Lowell, I thought. I did like Pam as a Bond girl.
@Birdleson, I agree the overall look of LTK was rather cheap. That is just one more thing that brought down the overall quality of the film for me.
I like your phrasing, @royale65 about Bond being more animalistic in LTK, losing his sheen of sophistication. It was a raw emotional, revenge driven Bond. Very good point about how he finally got control when he viewed it more as a mission.
I loved TLD and still do not enjoy LTK. But I did like Dalton as Bond very much. 8-> I'm grateful we have two from him, since many appreciate LTK a lot and for me two of Dalton is far better than only one film.
I am watching Skyfall later today, but this week I think a return visit to TLD is in order.
Cheers, everybody!
It's now late 1987. Shortly after "The Living Daylights" is released to positive reviews, Cubby Broccoli and writers Michael G. Wilson and Richard Maibaum start to discuss the next film. Encouraged by the successful change in actor, direction, and increased profits, the new film would retain a realistic style and introduce a "dark side" of the Bond character never fully explored before. Before the outlined script can be developed, a writer's strike forces Maibaum to drop out and leaves Wilson to work on it on his own. Originally entitled "Licence Revoked" and later changed in order to avoid confusion from the general public about the title's meaning, this is the first Bond film not to use a Fleming title. However, certain elements of the story are borrowed from Fleming's 1960 Bond short story "The Hildebrand Rarity" as well as another from the "Live And Let Die" novel. The film plot sees an off duty Bond help his old CIA pal Felix Leiter, now working for the DEA, capture notorious Central American drug lord Franz Sanchez impromptu on the way to Leiter's wedding. After Sanchez escapes from federal custody by way of a hefty bribe to a crooked DEA agent, he has Leiter maimed and his new wife Della murdered while on their honeymoon to send a message to those who would interfere in his business. Beside himself with rage, Bond is next suspended without pay nor support from MI6 when he disregards orders and goes after Sanchez on a personal mission of revenge.
Due to budgetary concerns over changes in English taxation laws that resulted in higher rates for foreign artists, Broccoli elects to film out of Churubusco Studios in Mexico City, and on location in other parts of Mexico and Florida, with Pinewood being used only for minimal work. Principal filming of the 16th Bond adventure began in Mexico on July 18, 1988 in Mexico and moved to the Key West and the Florida Keys in August, wrapping 4 months from the start date on November 18th. Before the film is released, both British and American censors react to what they deem to be "excessive and realistic violence", with the British censors demanding 36 seconds of the footage cut from the movie. It would not be until the 2006 release of the Ultimate DVD before the full uncut film would be seen. Licence To Kill debuted in London on June 13th, 1989. Budgeted for $32 million, the movie would earn $156 million despite the content issues and lack of United States promotion that caused the film to fare poorly against several much more hyped releases there. Reviews of the film to this day continue to be mixed among fans and film critics, with many fiercely loyal to it and others finding it too divergent from the established formula. It would be the 2nd and last appearance of Timothy Dalton as Bond, as well as for Robert Brown, Caroline Bliss, and director John Glen.
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"The Living Daylights" opened in London in June 1987. Pierce Brosnan and his family were in London at the time but were hounded out of their home by the British press who wanted to know what his reaction to the film would be. Brosnan did not attend the premiere and did not even view the film in a theater but instead was forced to watch it captively on a Transatlantic flight several months later, as he recalled to CNN's Larry King.
Dalton went on to make 1989's "Licence to Kill". Faced with such summer competition as the first Batman and "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" starring Sean Connery (and "AVTAK"'s Alison Doody), the film did relatively poorly at the U.S. box office. The supermarket tabloid The Globe reported in August 1989 that "In a move to save James Bond from box-office disaster, producers are planning to give Timothy Dalton the boot," replacing him with Pierce Brosnan. Dalton sued the paper for libel, a case he won seven months later. The issue was moot, however, as production of future Bond films was put on hold during various lawsuits after "Licence To Kill"'s release, much like that between the Beatles and Apple Records. This litigation would leave a gap of six years between Bond films, the longest in the series' history.
In December 1989, Kevin McClory was trying to package a new Bond film with the "Thunderball" rights that he owned, and had previously repackaged as 1983's "Never Say Never Again". This one was to be called "Warhead 8", starring Pierce Brosnan as Bond. When asked about the role, Brosnan told People Magazine that month, "My mind would be open if the possibility came up again. It's like running for President~once you decide you can do the job, it's very hard to dissuade yourself."
McClory later licensed his Bond rights to producer Al Ruddy, who began developing a James Bond television series in early 1992. Ruddy's choice for Bond was also Pierce Brosnan, but Ruddy doubted Pierce would take the job, as his wife Cassandra had recently died after a long battle with cancer, and Pierce had children to look after. A lawsuit naturally ensued between the Bond producers and Ruddy, and the James Bond TV show was dead in the water. [McClory continued to try for many years to make a Warhead film.]
In August 1990, there was some controversy with regard to John Gardner's latest Bond novel, "Brokenclaw". According to USA Today, the profiled figure on the dustjacket looked very much like Pierce Brosnan, and people were asking him if he had posed for it. This image had been used on other hardcover editions of Gardner's books and was actually discontinued for a time.
Media speculation continued that MGM wanted Dalton out as Bond, if and when another James Bond film would be made. In the spring of 1992, "Die Hard" producer Joel Silver said he would like to acquire rights to the Bond films and cast Mel Gibson as Bond. This was the start of Gibson-as-Bond rumors, which continued for the next two years.
The litigation that had been holding up production was finally settled in late 1992, and everything was clear for a new Bond film to begin, amidst contradictory signals. In June 1993, the British magazine Film Review reported that Brosnan was "back in favourite's frame" for the role, but two months later reported that Dalton was in negotiations for his third outing as Bond. In October 1993, it was reported that MGM offered Mel Gibson $15 million to play Bond, which Gibson had turned down. Meanwhile, Dalton was still telling the press that he was still James Bond.
Despite suggestions that he jumped before he was pushed, on April 11, 1994, Timothy Dalton formally announced his resignation from the role of James Bond. He technically had not played the part for five years now, and his contract with the producers had expired though he was still the "Bond of record." British betting books immediately set odds on various actors. Pierce Brosnan, fresh off the hugely successful comedy "Mrs. Doubtfire", was the 2-1 favorite, with the newly-hot Hugh Grant (after "Four Weddings and a Funeral") and Ralph Fiennes (after "Schindler's List") both at 4-1.
In April and May 1994, the search for a new James Bond was put to a public vote. A poll was taken on the tabloid TV show "Hard Copy", with viewers calling in to a 900 number, at 95 cents a call. Pierce Brosnan won handily with 85% of the vote; Mel Gibson, a very distant second with 7%. "Entertainment Tonight" polled under the same conditions and concluded with Brosnan the favorite as Bond, with 73% (over 10,000 votes), and Gibson again second at 16%.
In early May 1994, at a cancer fund-raiser in Los Angeles, Brosnan told "Hard Copy" that he knew nothing about becoming James Bond (and) no one had told him anything official. Finally, on June 1, 1994, as he was setting off to New Guinea to film a new version of "Robinson Crusoe", Pierce got a formal phone call offering him the part of James Bond. After all the contracts were this time signed, a press conference was held in London on June 7, 1994, formally, and finally, announcing Pierce Brosnan as the fifth Agent 007, to star in "GoldenEye".
Postscript: Until it was surpassed by 1997's "Tomorrow Never Dies", "GoldenEye" was the highest-grossing James Bond film of all time, with more than $350 million in ticket sales.
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So if any of you would care to comment about anything mentioned above, please do so! Pick it apart or add more info that you may have. Thanks!
I find very little in TLD needs any changing, really. I could do without the cello case escape, which was clearly written with Roger Moore in mind, but I suppose it’s tolerable. What I WOULD change here is the bullet hole in the cello itself. A hole like that would distinctly change the sound the instrument produces, and not for the better. Kara would not be using a damaged instrument like that on her world tour, regardless of any sentimental feelings she may hold for it.
LTK, however, does need some substantial changes made to the script. My understanding is that Richard Maibaum was involved in the first draft of the script, but then had to bow out because of a writers’ strike, and that Michael G. Wilson (unencumbered by said strike as he was also one of the film’s producers) finished the job. No slight is intended to Wilson’s efforts, but in my opinion we have some real problems once Bond & Co. reach Isthmus. Let’s take, just for starters, the very existence of the country of Isthmus in the first place. When in Europe, Bond visits real locales: Istanbul, Rome, Vienna. Why does he have to go to non-existent countries when he’s in Latin America? To avoid stepping on some south-of-the-border toes? The PTS to AVTAK takes place in an unnamed Latin American country -- unnamed because there’s nowhere real that would actually suit the situation we’re given. TLD takes place in the non-existent country of Isthmus because…why exactly? Eon didn’t want to offend Columbia? How many movie tickets per year are actually sold in Columbia, anyway? Come on, guys, let’s stop insulting all of Latin America by making up places for Bond to visit when he heads there. MR didn’t cause the Bond series to wither and die just because part of the story took place in Rio De Janeiro!
Oh, but there’s more: what’s up with the third skeleton the X-Ray camera reveals in the picture taken in Bond’s hotel room? There’s obviously a sub-plot going on there that got excised without accounting for the existence of the mysterious third skeleton. Put that sub-plot back in, please -- and answer the question that it raises. You’re going to have to do something to fill in all the time that goes onto the cutting-room floor once we get rid of Professor Joe Butcher and his meditation institute. This was a plot --and a character, and a set -- that never fit into the darker, more serious film that LTK started out to be. If we needed a cocaine processing plant, then fine -- just give us one. Don’t pretend to hide one in a faux-Aztec pyramid that bursts into flame at the drop of a beaker!
And yes, jovial Felix at film’s end also needs to be fixed, at the very least with a doctor that observes his phone conversation, then whispers to a nurse about the urgent need to “Adjust that patient’s medications!”
I also would have liked for Prof. Joe to have been eliminated from the film.
As for a photo or drawing that looks like Brosnan on the cover or back cover of Brokenclaw (Gardner), I cannot find one on the internet offhand. It has been discussed, apparently, on other forums but nothing definitive I think. Meanwhile, here is a nice shot of Timothy.
I don't recall Connery showing any sadness in that scene. He picks himself up off of the floor, staggers across the room, and sits on the bed like nothing as happened.
His expression when he see's Jill says it all really. He's shocked but its somewhat underplayed, you can tell in the tone of his voice when he calls Felix that he's upset (possibly because he didn't get to shag her one more time ;) )
Still, I think its one of his best moments in the role.
I'm not saying Dalton didn't have some good moments (I really like his reaction outside Felix's house when Della chucks him that cloth thing), but I'm not sure finding Della was one of them.
I think you've done an exemplary job of piecing together the behind-the-scenes manuevering here, @4Ever. Well done! Given the complimentary things Dalton has always had to say about the Broccolis over the years, I think it's pretty obvious that he had Eon's full support through his entire tenure as Bond. I don't think MGM comes off well at all in this regard, though...if there was indeed behind-the-scenes pressure being brought to bear on Pierce's behalf, this is where I'd look. All of that being as it may, we must admire Dalton's sense of professionalism. Given the pressures he must have been feeling, TD made his exit from the role of Bond with exceptional grace, leaving Brosnan a clear field to pick up the role and make it his own. How well Pierce succeeded is the very next topic on our plates...so dig in with enthusiasm, everybody, our next course is about to be served!
The thing I would change would be the friendly Taliban in TLD, just because they were fighting the Russians didn't mean they were any good.
cannot retrieve it; no draft saved again ... and this time backspacing could not retried it. I thought I had copied it but didn't. I have to copy drafts every time it seems and cannot rely on it saving any draft ... :(
Without further adieu (I have just about stopped crying over the lost post, now ...) I give you:
The Pierce Brosnan era! B-)
After a long, dry six years since LTK, the questions loomed large: Was the franchise dead in the water? Could it make a strong comeback? Who will be Bond? Dalton? Gibson? Brosnan? The answer was finally given to us: Pierce Brosnan. Which was not a surprise; however, the questions only got louder and more numerous: Would he live up to expectations? Would he fall flat on his face? What on earth kind of Bond film would Goldeneye turn out to be? Was there any life left in this film series or was it really washed up?
Let me start by posting a picture of Brosnan's James Bond in one of the ways I am most fond of him:
https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608044138008151675&pid=15.1
Therefore ~ Let the mayhem begin! No, no, no ... no more foreplay!
Pierce Brosnan as James Bond brings a mixture of opinions on this forum, to put it mildly. :-B But I say let's lay it out all here over the next week. Just keep it civil (strong disagreements are fine!). And you all get to put up with me going on and on about one of my favorite Bonds, Pierce Brosnan. 8->
What do you think of Pierce Brosnan and his four films? What about the stories, the first female M, the music (the good, the bad, and the very ugly music!), the directors (what a mixed bag!), Brosnan's portrayal and how it evolved, all of it.
Cheers!
I beg to disagree, @Sandy. The friendly Taliban is very much indicative of the politics of that era. The US was perfectly happy to fund and supply the Taliban at that time. The fact that the politics of today and the politics of 1987 are very much at odds is one of my favorite aspects of TLD. Your mileage is of course welcome to vary...