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Cars will be under weapons and gadgets, yes; all vehicles can be included in that.
:)
I think those would be technical film-making considerations not directly related to the 'realism' of the movies' content.
Most realistic continuity?
Most realistic editing?
I think that can be discussed when we talk about the other categories. All could fit into the other categories easily, such as finale or fights. If you think there is a badly edited moment, you can mention it, for example.
New avatar again, Thunderfinger? :) I cannot really see it, I'll have to look more closely ... is this the most realistic avatar for you? ;)
Now I see! that utterly realistic henchman Jaws! Good one.
Plotholes, then? Or the lack of it if you will.
A lot of films have plot holes and a fan fav GF has its fair share. I once read a nasty review regarding AVTAK where the reviewer said, "they spent more time filling in the wrinkles in Moore's face than filling in plot holes." That was so mean.
Thanks, but where am I? To the right or to the left? ;)
If you want to list the least realistic we can and probably will do that, AFTER the main discussion and breakdown of categories for the most realistic Bond films. So just flip your thinking at first, Thunderfinger. As I type this here comes OHMSS69 with his examples of unrealistic moments. Oh well ... it is easy and fun to think of those.
If you want to chat a bit about the horrible, unrealistic things in Bond films, okay - please do so at a minimum today. I do want to discuss the unrealistic bits more after we tackle the most realistic films. :) I don't mind some mentions, though. They are funny ... just don't get us completely sidetracked, ok?
Not thinking of CR67 now, but CR54 would be a strong contender otherwise.
No, that is @DarthDimi on the right. :))
Your choices for Most Realistic Bond film!
1) Please think of the Bond films you would consider to be most realistic.
This can be any number: one film, five films, etc. Your preferences.
2) Then look at the films using the set categories. Discuss at length or briefly, your choices. You may use a 1 to 5 rating for each category, or you may simply use wording (strong/mediocre/weak) to explain the details in each category. Your choice, although for the purposes of a final tally I think a 1 to 5 rating would be helpful.
3)You can take a day or two to finish your entries. I know I will. I'll be listing LTK first, but I have to work so I think I won't get to finish my entire contribution until tomorrow.
4) Then decide your #1 most realistic Bond film, from your choices listed.
Discussion from everybody as we post is welcome. After finishing, in about a week, we will tally up and find the #1 from this particular group of members participating this round. :-B
So here are the categories to use for each film you discuss:
Most Realistic Bond Film
~ Bond's capabilities
~ Villain's main aims
~ Weapons and gadgets/transport (including vehicles, methods of transport)
~ Villain's capabilities (physical, mental, influence on others, wealth/assets, etc.)
~ Portrayal of the world or situation that Bond finds himself in
~ Escapes and chases
~ Fights
~ Finale and resolution of the story
Very brief example (in a hurry, but here is my take on LTK):
License to Kill (1 to 5 rating)
Bond's capabilities - 5 out of 5. This Bond is not an over the top super agent; he is very real, with human feelings and his actions are totally in keeping with his mindset (revenge!), intelligence, and physical attributes. This Bond is cunning, not just beating up the bad guys physically. Yet he is more than competent and resourceful; just watch that entire tanker chase and final killing of Sanchez. Totally realistic and believable.
Villain's main aims - 4 out of 5. Sanchez's aims are based on his drug cartel business and all that he does is realistic. No grandoise scheme of world domination. He is evil and greedy and sadistic. His aims are realistic and not far fetched. I am not giving him a 5 simply because they were not (as far as I remember) high reaching aims.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport - 5 out of 5. Nothing fantastical like a jetpack; this film stays grounded in reality, grim as it is. I am giving full marks for the palmprint gun, helicopter chase, and tanker chase.
Villain's capabilities - 4 out of 5. I may change that to 5 out of 5. Totally realistic, driven, wily, with great power within his realm as a drug cartel lord ... Sanchez is quite capable indeed, power to torture and kill at will, money to burn, and with strong influence (just not global reaching).
World or Situation - 5 out of 5. Again, this film could be taken from the daily news at the time. Highly credible (sad to say). Realistic and believable - nothing was farfetched in this one, in my opinion.
Escapes and chases - 5 out of 5. Not only were these exciting, but they were done totally realistically, within the realms of physics and logical outcomes.
Fights - 4.5 out of 5. Real, grim, and very memorable. Several to mention, but I am running out of time. Tanker chase and final fight/confrontation with Sanchez rates quite highly in excitement and believability. Very realistic throughout this film.
Finale and Resolution of Story - 5 out of 5. No being whisked off by a lowered rescue hook to fly up in the sky like in Dr. No. The violence, injuries, pain, suffering, and emotions of the killing of Sanchez, right through to the reunion with Pam ... all are realistically portrayed.
* * * * * * *
Let the discussions begin - have fun!
(I will post my other notes as soon as I can, but that may be a few hours yet ...)
From Russia With Love
Bond's capabilities- 5 of 5. Like most of Connery's first few, no crazy strength or eclectic abilities.
Villain's main aims- 5 of 5. Stealing a decoder and murdering an agent is absolutely believable given the era.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport- 4.5 of 5. I'm deducting a half point for the silly Mission: Impossible-like Bond mask at the beginning.
Villain's capabilities- 5 of 5. Grant & Kleb were well within human limits.
World or Situation- 5 of 5. Typical Cold War scenario.
Escapes and chases- 5 of 5. The helicopter attack was the most OTT element in the movie, and even that was realistically handled.
Fights- 5 of 5. Not only realistic, but the Grant train fight ranks among the best ever put to film.
Finale and Resolution of Story- 4 of 5. One FULL point deducted for Bond not simply laying waste to Kreb without assistance. Can you imagine having a hard time with her yourself? Positively shocking.
Total: 38.5 of 40
License To Kill
Bond's capabilities- 5 of 5. Even more than in TLD, a human and hurt-able Bond, not prone to painless & effortless retaliation.
Villain's main aims- 5 of 5. Straight up drug dealer, just in a magnitude rarely seen/discovered by authorities.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport- 4 of 5. I'm deducting a half point for the silly laser/X-ray Poloroid camera, and a half point for the wheelie that trucks can't normally perform.
Villain's capabilities- 5 of 5. Sanchez was possibly the most fully realised & fully believable villain ever in a Bond film. Props to Robert Davi.
World or Situation- 5 of 5. Typical Drug War scenario.
Escapes and chases- 5 of 5. Exciting & thrilling all, yet never outside the boundaries of physics.
Fights- 5 of 5. I'm tempted to deduct a half point for the silly swordfish gag in the bar fight. More for the tone of it than the actual physical execution of using it as a weapon. But in the end, there was nothing 'unrealistic' about it. All other fighting was exemplary.
Finale and Resolution of Story- 4.5 of 5. One half point deducted for the scene with Felix sounding all happy on the phone with Bond. WTF? Did they blast him with morphine or something?? Of course we know the real story- Hedison just said the lines without knowing context, still, it detracts from the realism IMO.
Total: 38.5 of 40
Wow, numerically equal... :-??
So, gut feeling decision time.
I'll give it to FRWL.
Other potentials were OHMSS, FYEO, CR & QOS, but I knew they wouldn't rate as highly as these two for me (QOS might have actually come the closest...).
I'm at work but will check in sometimes. Great to read! :)
At this point the best I can do is select what I perceive to be the most realistic film per actor, and I will do it from my gut feeling more than anything else:
- Connery: FRWL
No scientific inaccuracies, no technological implausibilities, few practical improbabilities (this is where DN and a private island with a fully equipped nuclear installation loses), politically fairly acceptable, logical choices made by the characters.
- Lazenby: OHMSS
Not that I have many choices but in all fairness, if we accept the power of hypnotism, OHMSS could get away with a 'realistic' label. At least this film doesn't have Blofeld send space ships to swallow other space ships.
- Moore: FYEO
One of the bravest exercises in all of Bond history to explore a down-to-Earth, almost everyday spy case in which not every enemy gets killed with a quip and the conflict ends on a stalemate, as I would guess most such conflicts do in the real world.
- Dalton: LTK
Strange, perhaps, that I choose this one but LTK's drug lord plot was very topical at the time and the idea of Bond going rogue... well, it's not the same thing as a defection but those who are familiar with the Burgess / McClean case know that British agents don't always obey their superiors' instructions. Also, what tips the balance in the favour of Dalton's second film, for me, is the whole Afghan resistance plot in the first one. I seriously think that TLD romanticised those people in too unrealistic a sense.
- Brosnan: /
Sorry, I can't find a Brosnan film even remotely realistic. Although I love GE, I doubt that a syndicate like Janus could simply set up shop in an existing radar dish installation. Also, the whole killer satellite thing never strikes me as very realistic. Stealth boats and more killer satellites, especially the diamond powered ones, are even more of a strain. I would suggest TWINE but that plot has its characters make such strange choices at times and works from such 'convenient coincidences' that I refuse to consider it plausible (which may not be the same as unrealistic but it just doesn't feel right. ;-) )
- Craig: CR...
... with QOS a very close second. Since even the stunts were carried out for real, one cannot protest against the parcours action. I think that in CR people make choices people would normally make. Corruption among financiers of world terrorists seems plausible enough. Even the Venice house doesn't create issues for me.
'License To Kill'
Bond's Capabilities - 5 out of 5. Right off the bat, we're shown just how human Bond is, juggling the wedding of a good friend with the escape of a known drug lord. Only Bond can conquer both simultaneously and succeed (momentarily). We see many laughs, we see his love for both Felix and Della, and his sorrow and sadness when the former turns up in bad shape and the latter is dead. We see a vengeful side of Bond as he tracks out to not only stop the man he recently captured, but to get revenge for hurting those he loved.
From here on out, he's efficient in everything he does: destroying the drugs, seizing the money, killing Sanchez's men, framing one of them so Sanchez kills him, infiltrating his gang, and finally, sabotaging the plan and completing the mission, even though he's been shunned by his superiors and had his license to kill stripped from him. This is Bond in one of his finest films, and he's efficient in every sense of the word. Hell, he even juggles two women throughout the whole film, too!
Villain's Main Aims - 5 out of 5. It's been stated, but it's short and sweet: Sanchez is a drug dealer. There's no twists, nothing grand or bizarre about it, that's it. Doesn't get much more realistic than that.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport - 4 out of 5. The camera is a bit ridiculous, and I was going to deduct a point for the toothpaste, but really, it's very realistic and plausible as a sticky explosive. The vehicles are grounded in reality, as there are drug-running speed boats (or what appear to be) and tanker trucks.
Villain's Capabilities - 4 out of 5. Sanchez is most certainly capable. He's smart, resourceful, has different men performing different roles that they excel at, etc. However, he has an idea of who this pretty boy Brit is and lets him into his home and to see his grand operation anyway? Davi played Sanchez well, and he comes across as very bright and not one to be messed with, so I'm surprised he was so trusting of Bond, whether Bond set up someone else as the traitor or not.
Sanchez has guns, goons, money, and drugs. He doesn't have a claw for an arm, a sharp-hat-wearing mute sidekick, a temporary penchant for invincibility, etc. Simple and just about as human as a villain can get.
World Or Situation - 5 out of 5. It's been stated, but it's the world of drugs being run by a drug lord. Standard and very realistic.
Escapes And Chases - 4 out of 5. The helicopter stunt was done well, Bond dangling on the airplane in mid-air seemed slightly far-fetched (yet still relatively plausible), but everything during the finale chase scene just seemed to come together too well. Vehicles were positioned in key moments that worked in Bond's favor, the mound Bond rolls up on to do that long-stretched side-wheelie on was convenient, etc. Again, it's possible, but all too convenient for me to consider entirely realistic.
Fights - 5 out of 5. It all seemed quite realistic to me. The bar fight was your typical (sans swordfish) 80's type of bar fight and the 'Temple of Doom' type of brawl between Bond and Dario on the conveyor belt was quite realistic, as well.
Finale And Resolution Of Story - 4.5 out of 5. This harks back to me stating that everything just seemed to come together too conveniently for the finale to be entirely realistic. The resolution was realistic, but in the finale, I just think of 'The Dark Knight,' where the plan for this to happen and that to happen and that to happen is based completely on conveniency and incredibly rare possibilities.
Total: 36.5 out of 40.
Not too bad. If I answered it off the top of my head with a few sentences, I would figure it'd be at a 37-38, but that still isn't a bad score. The last film I'll rate in terms of realism will be CR, but I'm watching a movie right now, so I'll get to it later tonight or tomorrow, since voting won't occur for a couple of days.
Great movie, though!
@4EverBonded stated that we'll look at those once we're done focusing on the most realistic Bond films.
Missed that one, sorry.
Quantum Of Solace
Bond's capabilities- 4 of 5. A half point deducted for being able to effectively fight after crashing though a skylight UPSIDE DOWN, and another half for pulling a 'chute too close to ground for most humans to survive.
Villain's main aims- 5 of 5. Stealing a resource & re-selling it is ridiculously realistic, sadly.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport- 4.5 of 5. Half point deducted for the science fiction MI-6 table computer that belongs in Star Trek. A lot of envelope pushing stuff otherwise, but none terribly OTT.
Villain's capabilities- 5 of 5. Greene was all too human, and fairly weak at it to boot.
World or Situation- 5 of 5. Typical corporate War scenario.
Escapes and chases- 5 of 5. The boat chase had a confusing moment, but all was well.
Fights- 4.5 of 5. Mainly good, but the upside-down rope fight strained credulity more than a bit.
Finale and Resolution of Story- 5 of 5. As measured REALISTICALLY, it was excellent. A closure for Bond, yet inconclusive for Quantum.
Total: 38 of 40.
FRWL still wins.
Bond's Capabilities - 5 out of 5. For a rookie version of 007, Bond kicks some serious ass in this. He's fast, he's strong, he comes right out of the gate with a mission to do, leaving bodies in his path as he does. He's cold and calculating and he manages to get the job done. However, being a rookie agent, he does have some faults, and while not every agent shall be perfect, he does mess up a good bit: manages to get poisoned, double-crossed, captured, tortured, put under the impression that Mathis was who double-crossed him (when it wasn't), betrayed once more, loses Vesper, and then loses the money. He sounds like a human, not some robot who solely operates on perfection and making zero mistakes. It's what I love about Bond in this film: he's capable to a realistic extent.
Villain's Main Aims - 5 out of 5. I don't know how realistic it is in the real world (so please, someone feel free to correct me if it truly isn't), but a mathematical prodigy who works with terrorist groups to acquire proper funds to distribute (and gain money off of) throughout the world seems pretty realistic to me. I don't know what the end result is for him, aside from making insane amounts of money and being able to fund terrorist groups to continue it, but Le Chiffre appears to be causing chaos and making bank in the process, so let him have it.
Weapons and Gadgets/Transport - 5 out of 5. Everything seems to be in line here. P99, no gadgets from Q-Branch (aside from the tracker in Bond's arm, which is realistic, and the antidotes in his DB9, also realistic), other firearms that Bond stumbles upon, the DB5 (gadget free), etc. Pure realism. The only thing that might not fit is the bomb keychain that Carlos attempts to use in Miami, but given the world of bombs and firearms these days, I'm sure that probably exists somewhere. Other forms of transport include his DB9, some of the vehicles used in the airport scene, a train, etc., all things you could go out and find. Pure realism there.
Villain's Capabilities - 5 out of 5. Le Chiffre - like Sanchez - has many men at his side ready to perform different jobs, though his specialities include games of chance and manipulating stock markets, the former used to win back money (or show off his skills) and the latter used to make money off of his client's money...which, to me, is a risky, terrible idea if you're in his shoes. Anyway, having some henchmen and being good with numbers is perfectly realistic in today's society.
World Or Situation - 4 out of 5. It's the typical 'watch Bond hop around the globe, taking out bad guy after bad guy, until he gets to his final target.' It's realistic, that's what he does. However, given the situation, why do we have an MI6 agent and a CIA agent sitting at the same table as a man who funds terrorist networks, slowly but surely getting more and more stressed out as he gets closer to winning? Why not just...arrest him? Take him in? You know what he's done, why attempt to beat him and run the risk of him being killed before you can capture him successfully?
Hell, even when Bond wins, Leiter takes off happily as he goes to arrest him...yet he doesn't do it. Why did he not immediately take Le Chiffre in? He lets him get away, and that leads to Le Chiffre's murder by Mr. White. Given the situation, would it not have been easier to just make him surrender (knowing what he does, offer him immunity for giving everyone up) and avoid the game entirely?
Escapes And Chases - 4 out of 5. I love the chases in this film, but some of them don't sit well with me because once more it just relies on that movie-making magic where situations align ever so perfectly. The parkour chase? Most of that is totally realistic, all of that can be done with parkour (aside from Bond bringing down that elevator/trolly thing with the wrench). But, the chase in the airport? The airport wouldn't have a master override system like that, and with all of the cops and officers arriving on-scene immediately, Bond and Carlos manage to chase one another around the tarmac for a while before the police even show up? Highly improbable. The whole ending to that scene is a little far-fetched, as well. Then you have the convenient arrival of Mr. White, saving Bond and his penis by mere seconds, and the entire foot chase (and subsequent fight) during the finale is based on pure luck: Bond manages to spot Vesper in a huge crowd after snooping through her phone and realizing she's a traitor? Seems like that relied on a lot of luck and chance. Possible, yet very very lucky.
Fights - 5 out of 5. Again, rookie or not, Bond kicks major ass in this, and all of the fight scenes and gunfights are done so well, it's hard to argue it. Just watch the film and you'll see how realistic it is. Bond gets thrown around, bloodied, beaten, smashed, cut, stabbed, you name it. He isn't this killing machine that's unstoppable, because even though he manages to best his opponents in all of the fights he's in in CR, he uses his skills to do so, albeit getting wrecked in the process at times.
Finale And Resolution Of Story - 4.5 out of 5. I guess I pretty much spoke on the realism of the finale in 'Escapes And Chases,' and there is no resolution to this story, so I'll deduct half of a point.
Total: 37.5 out of 40.
Seems about right to me! CR is in my top three Bond films, but it's nice to know I didn't exhibit favoritism and give it a solid 40/40. It's fantastic, it's exciting, thrilling, action-packed, dramatic, you name it, but there are moments here and there that just don't cut it for me in the realism department.
CR: 37.5/40.
LTK: 36.5/40.
Since I managed to knock out two tonight, I might try for another one in the coming days.
And DarthDimi, what do you mean Brosnan didn't have a realistic Bond film? I ... er ... Goldeneye ... not quite, but how about Tomorrow Never Dies? Rather realistic even today in today's media controlled/saturated age. But I have my hands full with the other ones I consider to be totally realistic, so I'll say no to Brosnan's era. But TND is not all that farfetched, I think. Anyway, DarthDimi, It was interesting to read your take on each Bond's most realistic film. I love FYEO ... and it was realistic as all get out except for the silly PTS and dumb coda (oh, do I hear an echo?) Yes, that's me echoing chrisisall. I enjoyed the ending with the parrot and imitation Thatcher, mind you. The whole rest of the film is great and realistic enough, yes.
OK, I am crashing early tonight but will try to get in my two other ones. Really my other strongest contender is the still very worthy From Russia With Love and I am also including Casino Royale in the realistic Bond films group - sinking house in Venice, so what! ;)
Oh, we will look at the most unrealtistic Bond films after this full round and tallying up. Yes we will, and that will be a hoot. But for about 5 to 7 more days, depending upon participation, let's rate our most realistic Bond films. Hmmm, I could maybe add Live and Let Die; well ... maybe not quite.
I'll try to write up From Russia With Love tomorrow a.m. before heading off to work.
Meanwhile, have some fun with this. More entries coming, I hope.
Cheers! :-bd
Oh, and look Beatles just mentioned TND as I am typing this - good show, BeatlesSansEarMuffs!
Your choices for Most Realistic Bond film:
1) Please think of the Bond films you would consider to be most realistic.
This can be any number: one film, five films, etc. Your preferences.
2) Then look at the films using the set categories. Discuss at length or briefly, your choices. You may use a 1 to 5 rating for each category, or you may simply use wording (strong/mediocre/weak) to explain the details in each category. Your choice, although for the purposes of a final tally I think a 1 to 5 rating would be helpful.
3)You can take a day or two to finish your entries. I know I will. I'll be listing LTK first, but I have to work so I think I won't get to finish my entire contribution until tomorrow.
4) Then decide your #1 most realistic Bond film, from your choices listed.
Discussion from everybody as we post is welcome. After finishing, in about a week, we will tally up and find the #1 from this particular group of members participating this round. :-B
So here are the categories to use for each film you discuss:
Most Realistic Bond Film
~ Bond's capabilities
~ Villain's main aims
~ Weapons and gadgets/transport (including vehicles, methods of transport)
~ Villain's capabilities (physical, mental, influence on others, wealth/assets, etc.)
~ Portrayal of the world or situation that Bond finds himself in
~ Escapes and chases
~ Fights
~ Finale and resolution of the story
Not meaning to pick on you @CommanderRoss -- if any anything, I've been guilty of having an attitude similar to yours -- but at this point I wonder if P&W have been treated unfairly by Bond fandom at large. We've been going on for awhile about the "lack of evidence" for or against P&W, mostly on the basis of our dissatisfaction with DAD and TWINE. Well, the evidence is there and has been for some time. Let us first of all agree that the main party at fault for the debacle that is DAD is its' director, Lee Tamahori. That leaves us with TWINE as the primary reason for fan displeasure with the work of P&W. Well, the "Universal Exports" web-site has had an "early draft" of the script to TWINE posted for quite awhile now...and given that we are led to believe (according to Wikipedia's coverage of this topic) that P&W were the first to work on the script for that film, with later (uncredited) additions by that film's director and his wife, and a subsequent finish by Feirstein...I am inclined to believe that this draft is the closest thing we have to evidence for or against Purvis & Wade on the quality of their Bond series work. Here's the link in question: http://www.universalexports.net/00Scripts.shtml After a quick perusal of this early draft, I am willing to suggest that P&W's early work may not have been well served by the alterations of others. The delicate issue of humor is particularly notable here: John Cleese's annoying observation of "the famous 007 wit -- or half of it, anyway" is only half-there in the early draft, and "R" making a dry comment on "the famous 007 wit" is a far cry from what we finally saw on-screen. The famous end quip regarding the coming of Christmas is also there in a subtly different form than finally reached the screen, and to my ear the revision did that line no favors. Most tellingly, the relationship between Renard and Elektra is somewhat clarified and Renard given a much stronger presence than he eventually received in the finished film. If we are to pass judgement on Purvis & Wade's contribution to this film, I'd suggest that this "early draft" is probably the strongest evidence that we have, and urge interested parties to give it a look!
Haggis wrote Blackadder? Where'd you get that from? Rowan Atkinson (1st series) and Richard Curtis, then series two on, Ben Elton with contributions from producer John Lloyd.
I was kind of flabbergasted about that one too.
Haggis was the guy responsible for Walker Texas ranger, which is a far cry from This brilliantly written Blackadder.