DC Comics Cinematic Universe (2013 - present)

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  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited March 2021 Posts: 25,458
    The alleged Dream/Knightmare sequence in BvS will be explored further in the JL Snyder Cut.

    Sarah Connor had a Dream/Nightmare in T2 of being hit by a nuclear blast. It was only a dream though it did not diminish the threat and horror of the potential future.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,627
    The alleged Dream/Knightmare sequence in BvS will be explored further in the JL Snyder Cut.

    Sarah Connor had a Dream/Nightmare in T2 of being hit by a nuclear blast. It was only a dream though it did not diminish the threat and horror of the potential future.

    It wasn't a really long fight sequence though. The scene where he dreams Superman has him strung up and kills him is fairly effective and at least shows his state of mind, him beating up a load of guys is pointless. It feels like they needed to put an action scene in and could only find that bit as a possible point to do it.
    I'm not saying all dream sequences are bad, they're just not a place to put an action sequence.

    The earlier dream sequence where a demon comes out of his mum's grave I have no idea what that's there for. We've already had the really long flashback to their deaths so the idea he's haunted by it has been pretty well-communicated by that point (plus, y'know: he's Batman).
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,458
    mtm wrote: »
    The alleged Dream/Knightmare sequence in BvS will be explored further in the JL Snyder Cut.

    Sarah Connor had a Dream/Nightmare in T2 of being hit by a nuclear blast. It was only a dream though it did not diminish the threat and horror of the potential future.

    It wasn't a really long fight sequence though. The scene where he dreams Superman has him strung up and kills him is fairly effective and at least shows his state of mind, him beating up a load of guys is pointless. It feels like they needed to put an action scene in and could only find that bit as a possible point to do it.
    I'm not saying all dream sequences are bad, they're just not a place to put an action sequence.

    The earlier dream sequence where a demon comes out of his mum's grave I have no idea what that's there for. We've already had the really long flashback to their deaths so the idea he's haunted by it has been pretty well-communicated by that point (plus, y'know: he's Batman).
    Darkseid has a history of messing around with peoples minds, and taking away hope from people through telekinesis, Its very likely that some events we have already witnessed have been orchestrated by Darkseid.
    That's what I think based on my knowledge of the character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,627
    Ah okay, that would help make sense of the grave dream. That really didn't feel like it needed to be in there.

    Is he the character BvS throws forward to when it cuts to the painting on Luther Sr's wall at the end?
    I must admit I can't remember who the bad guy of the original version of Justice League is.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited March 2021 Posts: 25,458
    mtm wrote: »
    Ah okay, that would help make sense of the grave dream. That really didn't feel like it needed to be in there.

    Is he the character BvS throws forward to when it cuts to the painting on Luther Sr's wall at the end?
    I must admit I can't remember who the bad guy of the original version of Justice League is.

    The flipped painting does warn of the coming of Darkseid and his heralds, the Angels (Superman) at the bottom of the painting forshadowing there/his death.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    I imagine it was a tough year for the Razzies considering how few big pictures were released. Though perhaps they will relish the opportunity for a few controversial nominations (I haven't read the rest).

    Even still, poor Kristen Wiig.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243

    God this looks awesome... And that's just the Cape.

    Yay! Now we get to see Superman murder while wearing black!
  • Posts: 1,394

    God this looks awesome... And that's just the Cape.

    Yay! Now we get to see Superman murder while wearing black!

    As opposed to seeing him murder back in 1980?

    superman2zod1.gif


  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,271
    What's "transpiring" there...? ;-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What's "transpiring" there...? ;-)

    He'd been working extra hard that day. And on top of that, he'd heard that they were going to start chopping up his sequel.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,627
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What's "transpiring" there...? ;-)

    Yeah that shot always stands out a bit! And that's if you don't focus on Terry Stamp wobbling on his wires! :)

    Bizarrely, Michael Palin has a word on that, among other things, in his diaries:
    EwOSuf6WYAMNUVm?format=jpg&name=large
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,060
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What's "transpiring" there...? ;-)
    I smelled foul play from Superman the moment he entered that chamber.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243
    AstonLotus wrote: »

    God this looks awesome... And that's just the Cape.

    Yay! Now we get to see Superman murder while wearing black!

    As opposed to seeing him murder back in 1980?

    superman2zod1.gif


    Honestly, I hate that the theatrical cut kills them like that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,627
    The Donner cut does as well.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,704
    mtm wrote: »
    The Donner cut does as well.

    There was a alternative ending were Lex Luthor and the depowered Gang was arrested by the Arctic Patrol. That’s the ending I would have used, maybe have Lex, Zod and Non get locked up with Otis, for comedic relief.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243
    mtm wrote: »
    The Donner cut does as well.

    They’re put back in the phantom zone after Supes reverses time.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    The Donner cut does as well.

    There was a alternative ending were Lex Luthor and the depowered Gang was arrested by the Arctic Patrol. That’s the ending I would have used, maybe have Lex, Zod and Non get locked up with Otis, for comedic relief.

    That was a TV cut, I believe. It'd be nice if it were available like the TV cut of the first movie is.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243
    It’s included in the special features. It is curious that it was cut out of the actual Donner cut, along with all the other scenes that ended up deleted that Donner originally shot. There’s a scene that would have been near the end with Lex and Tessmacher breaking out of prison, which was supposed to set up a possible future film with Lex if the filmmakers wanted to use him again.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,627
    mtm wrote: »
    The Donner cut does as well.

    They’re put back in the phantom zone after Supes reverses time.

    Are they? The time reversal is such a fudge. Regardless, he doesn’t turn back time so he can save them (it’s more about Lois), and he still kills them in the first place.
    The Donner cut isn’t really a proper film for my money.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The Phantom Zone is worse than death, anyway.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    Yeah, he definitely does them a favour in that sense. The same applies to Shannon's Zod.

    Man Of Steel definitely references Superman II more than any other film with the character. We also get the "Clark bullied by the trucker" moment, which results in retribution from Kal-El. The big battle finish in Superman II was probably the first time audiences had seen super-powered, grand scale destruction. So it was probably exciting and intense. I always got the sense that Snyder was trying to riff on that shock; attempting to give the violence some weight in a time where those kinds of scenes in these kinds of films were commonplace, lightweight and just not all that intense anymore. But, in the end, he ended up overdoing it and causes a bit of numbness to set in and it undermines the entire point.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,243
    Oh boy did he. Superman doesn’t seem to have much of an issue with all the massive damage that’s killing thousands of people as a result of his fight with Zod, but once Zod’s like “I will kill that small group” it’s like “NOOOO DON’T DO IT!!!” It’s even sillier in the scene where he’s kissing Lois on the debris of a decimated city, seemingly unaware of his surroundings. The worst bit though was when Zod threw a LexCorp tanker truck at Superman and instead of stopping it Supes just dodges it and allows it to destroy a structure. It’s like the movie wants to add an entry into the Superdickery website

    And because of that weird oversight on Snyder’s part we get all those silly bits in BvS where characters always try to reassure audiences that nobody is actually dying this time “thankfully it’s after work so everyone’s home”, “it’s uninhabited!”, etc. and we do get that one awesome scene of Supes trying to punch Doomsday up in space to keep him away.

    I always suspect that AGE OF ULTRON making a point of saving “everyone” in Sokovia was Marvel reacting to the MoS destruction of Metropolis so we see a bunch of superheroics of people including the family dogs get saved. Only for CIVIL WAR to retcon that with the revelation of over a hundred people dying!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,627
    It is a curious choice. Superman Returns was pretty boring but it at least understood that Superman tries to save people: he has a similar scene of destruction in the city but he's flying around trying to save people from broken glass etc. In Superman 2 Zod literally says that he's found Supes' weakness and it's that he cares. Seems odd to take so many beats from that film but miss that one.

    That scene where he kills Zod is oddly one of the few where Cavill feels like a proper Superman: he wants to save innocent people. Most of the rest of the time he's having to play other sides to Supes' character, like him being vengeful or angry or hurt or upset or being mistrusted etc. Which would be fine as a contrast to his normal persona, but Snyder barely gets around to showing us the normal, decent, brave, honourable Superman: he just wants to get straight to the drama but doesn't really establish the groundwork of the character first.

    Even in the early part of MoS where he's saving people from oil rigs etc. he's a sort of mournful Jason Bourne figure rather than someone forthrightly standing for truth, justice and all that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243
    Snyder has said his original plan was that it would take five films before we actually get a “proper” traditional Superman, which I’m not a fan of that approach, just as I wasn’t a fan of seeing QOS supposedly trying to continue the whole Bond Begins arc, which felt properly concluded in CR.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Snyder has said his original plan was that it would take five films before we actually get a “proper” traditional Superman, which I’m not a fan of that approach, just as I wasn’t a fan of seeing QOS supposedly trying to continue the whole Bond Begins arc, which felt properly concluded in CR.

    It would be different if there felt like a sense of progression, like Cavill's Supes actually was growing. There's no semblance of character development between MOS and BvS.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,236
    Oh boy did he. Superman doesn’t seem to have much of an issue with all the massive damage that’s killing thousands of people as a result of his fight with Zod, but once Zod’s like “I will kill that small group” it’s like “NOOOO DON’T DO IT!!!” It’s even sillier in the scene where he’s kissing Lois on the debris of a decimated city, seemingly unaware of his surroundings. The worst bit though was when Zod threw a LexCorp tanker truck at Superman and instead of stopping it Supes just dodges it and allows it to destroy a structure. It’s like the movie wants to add an entry into the Superdickery website

    A lot of that can be attributed to the film feeling very much of its time in terms of being a post-9/11 film and coming out when the 'War On Terror' was still raging. Films were obsessive about including visual references to September 11, often to their detriment.

    Though I wouldn't say Supes "doesn't have much of an issue" with the destruction. His mind is just focused on the problem that's in front of him, and it does come back on him later. It would have been an interesting narrative thread in a sequel, if that sequel wasn't also pre-occupied with world building on top of more world building.
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