Indiana Jones

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  • Posts: 3,327
    After seeing Nolan's snoozefest last night at the cinema, I'm starting to appreciate Indy 5 a lot more now. In many ways I enjoyed it more than Mission Impossible too.

    Definitely took me by surprise.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Yes I expected to enjoy Mission Impossible more too, but I didn't.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited July 2023 Posts: 8,400
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I don't know why it's flopping, but it sucks that after a certain point, Helena feels like the star of the film, and Indy the supporting character. Feels like the film is being told from her point of view. Especially disappointing since there's a lot of good stuff in the film otherwise.

    You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the sidekick.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    I don't see how Indy was the sidekick in this film.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 482
    The main issue that Nolan had to deal with in Oppenheimer is similar to what Clint Eastwood faced for Sully.

    Chesley Sullenberger had an uneventful life before and after his heroic achievement, which lasted something like 15 minutes. If you put it at the start of the movie, nothing can top that, and people would leave the room after this climax. So, they turned the story into a trial movie, where Sully faced people hostile to him beyond any rationality (they can't even wait for a couple of hours before Airbus provides them with their own simulation), while in real life it was a routine audition, where Sully's version was never really challenged. But it allows the story to put the reenactment of Sully's stunt within the final minutes, just before the "verdict".

    For Robert Oppenheimer, the obvious climax is Project Manhattan, which happens at the middle of his life. Likewise, nothing could top Trinity in his life. Sure, the 1954 hearings are a shameful moment in the history of the United States of America, but so is the entire Red Scare, and it is all backstage manoeuvring in Oppenheimer's case.
    So, Nolan builds the structure of the film around two parallels series of hearings, one about Oppenheimer, one about Lewis Strauss, which allows him to pepper some of the most verbose stuff in the beginning and to move the buildup to Trinity in the final hour. But at least Nolan didn't screw up Trinity.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I don't know why it's flopping, but it sucks that after a certain point, Helena feels like the star of the film, and Indy the supporting character. Feels like the film is being told from her point of view. Especially disappointing since there's a lot of good stuff in the film otherwise.

    You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the sidekick.

    Haha!
  • Posts: 1,493
    Just seen Oppenheimer. Extraordinary. Superb script. Stunning filmmaking on every level. A cast all at the top of their game. Very powerful. Thought provoking. Scary. Emotional. So good to have a deeply intelligent film drawing such mighty reviews and big audiences. My IMAX screening was sold out and the audience was glued to the screen. None of the usual shuffling. Our people getting up and down in their seats. It grips from the first frame to the last, emotionally troubling, final frame. For me, best film of the year.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    You either die an Indiana Jones thread or you live long enough to see yourself become an Oppenheimer thread.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think what hurt Indy 5 most was that it doesn’t really have much appeal beyond the Boomer/GenX crowd. Lots of reports show that DoD turned up old crowds. That’s not to say that there weren’t young crowds that enjoyed it, but there weren’t as much compared to other blockbusters.

    I think that’s just a consequence of the Indy franchise having been stagnant for so many years. CRYSTAL SKULL came out at the perfect time for nostalgia, and a lot of GenXers brought in their families to go see that film. Maybe if they had struck when the iron was hot and did DIAL OF DESTINY in 2011/2012, it might have done better then.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Yes, I think it is mad they didn't do a sequel to Skull at the time. It was a massive hit, and I certainly saw kids buying Indy toys at the time.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Case in point. DIAL OF DESTINY was in development hell for many years when Spielberg was still attached to the film. The moment he decided to leave the project suddenly things started rolling fast with Mangold. CRYSTAL SKULL had been in development since the 90s, but didn’t get released until 2008.

    I think if Spielberg had actually been firm about THE LAST CRUSADE being his final directing gig and it was handed to other directors at the time, we would have gotten an Indy 4 and 5 during the 90s.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 482
    Given Lucas' instincts at the time (Spielberg managed to curb some of his worst ideas), would have it been a good thing?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It’s a general misconception among fans that Lucas’ instincts were ever different from the 70s to the 2000s. He’s always had the same instincts and inclinations, and he always valued constructive criticisms and thoughts from others because he wants to make the best possible films he can.

    The only difference between 1977 Lucas and 1999 Lucas was that the former was just another filmmaker, whereas the latter was the head of a multi-million dollar production company and seen by some as an authentic American genius, being encouraged by his peers and employees to express his vision with minimal feedback because they all believed in him. But that’s how you get the prequels.

    So, theoretically, if Lucas had hired a filmmaker for Indy 4 in the 90s, could that filmmaker have curbed some of those bad instincts as Spielberg had? I’d say if that theoretical filmmaker voiced their opinions as strongly as Spielberg, then yes. Worse case scenario is that it’s someone who buys into Lucas being a visionary and carries that out with minimal feedback.

    But that’s all woulda/coulda/shoulda.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    I don't know if Lucas had the headspace for Indy in the 90s though- didn't he spend most of the 90s getting the Star Wars prequels off the ground?
    I do agree that they probably should have bitten the bullet and let someone else take over in the 90s though. It happened eventually and it produced a very decent film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2023 Posts: 8,188
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know if Lucas had the headspace for Indy in the 90s though- didn't he spend most of the 90s getting the Star Wars prequels off the ground?

    Yeah it was during the time Ford guest appeared in Young Indy in 1993 that Lucas then got idea of doing a 1950s set adventure that harkened back to B movies of that era. Trouble is that all three (Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford) had to come to an agreement on a script or no movie would be made, and that kept the movie in development hell for over a decade.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 482
    Remember that for the prequels Lucas didn’t want to direct and approached a bunch of big name directors such as Spielberg, Zemeckis and Ron Howard who all told him to handle them himself. They knew that even with their status in the industry it would be more of a Richard Marquand thing than an Irwin Kershner thing, and that Lucas would be their shadow during all of production.

    Of course, it’s slightly different with Indy, as it was from the start a partnership with Spielberg, but any prospective director would have been daunted with the task of filling 80s Steven Spielberg’s shoes while Lucas would micromanage everything as he was used to be surrounded by yes-men. Spielberg was one of the few voices who could keep him in check for Indy, it wouldn’t have worked with a new guy.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know if Lucas had the headspace for Indy in the 90s though- didn't he spend most of the 90s getting the Star Wars prequels off the ground?

    Yeah it was during the time Ford guest appeared in Young Indy in 1993 that Lucas then got idea of doing a 1950s set adventure that harkened back to B movies of that era. Trouble is that all three (Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford) had to come to an agreement on a script or no movie would be made, and that kept the movie in development hell for over a decade.

    Yes good point, there were a couple of scripts in the mid-90s weren't there.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    My favorite story is that a script nearly got locked (I think by Jeffrey Boam who did THE LAST CRUSADE), but then INDEPENDENCE DAY came out and Spielberg told Lucas “we are NOT doing an alien invasion story after this”. George Lucas’ solution? Change them to “inter-dimensional beings”.


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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,420
    Saucermen is a very odd script: it's not really Indy at all but just an alien invasion thing in small town America. Crystal Skull is at least in keeping with the other films (arguably a bit too similar, but that's another matter).
  • Posts: 1,394
    thedove wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    Well, I won't sleep tonight.

    Hahahahaha! yeah, me too. LOL
    I went to see it; I did my part, and it's done. I loved it. All the haters can rejoice, but I got another movie I love.

    Same. I loved it and this is the final one. So who care if it didn't make much money?

    Who cares if it doesn't make money? Disney stockholders, Ford if he had any points in his contract, Bob Iger, Kathleen Kennedy, Disney employees who have just faced massive layoffs and are likely to get chopped down some more, Manigold might care as he has a Star Wars project. I believe the last person to face a declining Box Office, see Rian Johnson, was unceremoniously dumped from his trilogy.

    I must say I don't think the YouTubers you watch says much about your character. This constant need to take shots are people is really un-needed.

    Thank you.It seems there are some people here who are so in love with Indiana Jones,that they can’t face reality or tolerate any criticism.The movie is a massive box office flop.That’s not an opinion,it’s a fact.YouTubers didn’t make that up,they are reporting on it because a lot of the mainstream media ( who are shilling for Disney ) do not.

    As it happens,I thought the movie was merely ok.I didn’t hate it,but I believe Ford should have quit after Last Crusade as that was the perfect send off for his character and the simple fact is that he was too old in DOD to convincingly play an action hero ( to the extent he spent the last 20 mins of the film mostly sitting down.

  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,051
    I think Ford needed to be in more Indy films in his younger days. Such a waste!...to be honest.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    Yeah I think he'd have been up for them. Might even have got him back on track when he seemed to lose his mojo for a while around the turn of the century.
    The funny thing is, when you look back at some of his movies from the 90s up to a couple of years ago, it's hard not to think 'yep, he could still have played Indy at that age'! :) Even looking back at Skull now, he looks oddly young. It seems quite weird that there was so much talk about him being too old for it then.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,051
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I think he'd have been up for them. Might even have got him back on track when he seemed to lose his mojo for a while around the turn of the century.
    The funny thing is, when you look back at some of his movies from the 90s up to a couple of years ago, it's hard not to think 'yep, he could still have played Indy at that age'! :) Even looking back at Skull now, he looks oddly young. It seems quite weird that there was so much talk about him being too old for it then.

    Yeah. For example, in Air Force he was so heroic, one could feel Indy all over him.
  • Posts: 3,276
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Just seen Oppenheimer.
    Saw it today also...well, the most of it. I heard it was a good movie afterwards :-)
    0R1hDR9.jpg


  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I dunno how anyone can manage to sleep with the soundtrack blaring as it is haha
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I don't know about the Oppenheimer soundtrack, since I'll only watch that film in a few months from a disc, but I can fall asleep damn well while (trying to watch or) watching movies in my home theater at a noise level that my wife finds intolerable...provided I'm tired enough, and then it makes no difference how good the movie is. I don't think it ever happened to me in a movie theatre, but at home I shortened down lots of movies (including probably all James Bond films) that way, kind of falling asleep after the opening credits and waking up again during the closing credits. Probably depends on the alcohol intake before deciding to watch a movie.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    As it happens,I thought the movie was merely ok.I didn’t hate it,but I believe Ford should have quit after Last Crusade as that was the perfect send off for his character and the simple fact is that he was too old in DOD to convincingly play an action hero ( to the extent he spent the last 20 mins of the film mostly sitting down.
    That was the point. Indy is OLD now. And he was mostly sitting down because he was shot. If you don't want to see your heroes age, I get that. This movie just wasn't for you.

  • Posts: 1,970
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    Well, I won't sleep tonight.

    Hahahahaha! yeah, me too. LOL
    I went to see it; I did my part, and it's done. I loved it. All the haters can rejoice, but I got another movie I love.

    Same. I loved it and this is the final one. So who care if it didn't make much money?

    Who cares if it doesn't make money? Disney stockholders, Ford if he had any points in his contract, Bob Iger, Kathleen Kennedy, Disney employees who have just faced massive layoffs and are likely to get chopped down some more, Manigold might care as he has a Star Wars project. I believe the last person to face a declining Box Office, see Rian Johnson, was unceremoniously dumped from his trilogy.

    I must say I don't think the YouTubers you watch says much about your character. This constant need to take shots are people is really un-needed.

    Thank you.It seems there are some people here who are so in love with Indiana Jones,that they can’t face reality or tolerate any criticism.The movie is a massive box office flop.That’s not an opinion,it’s a fact.YouTubers didn’t make that up,they are reporting on it because a lot of the mainstream media ( who are shilling for Disney ) do not.

    As it happens,I thought the movie was merely ok.I didn’t hate it,but I believe Ford should have quit after Last Crusade as that was the perfect send off for his character and the simple fact is that he was too old in DOD to convincingly play an action hero ( to the extent he spent the last 20 mins of the film mostly sitting down.
    Not denying it was a flop, just saying I enjoyed it and we know it will be the last one they make.
  • Posts: 3,276
    I dunno how anyone can manage to sleep with the soundtrack blaring as it is haha
    Well, that certain subwoofer-moment took the cake!
  • Posts: 1,493
    Zekidk wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Just seen Oppenheimer.
    Saw it today also...well, the most of it. I heard it was a good movie afterwards :-)
    0R1hDR9.jpg


    You missed the best film of the year so far.
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