Was Karl Stromberg under-utilised in The Spy Who Loved Me?

Dragonpol

I've long thought about this. As one of the Bond books notes, Stromberg seems to just sit around and push buttons all day long. If not doing that, he's issuing orders to his minions. He is an interesting villain - but his strangeness is underplayed. Christopher Wood's novel fillis in the details in Flemingesque style but he leaves this detail out of the film story. A little more motivation could have been shown - his webbed hands could have been made more of a plot-point than they were and his strange conception and upbringing too, but again all of this was passed up on in favour of the star villain attraction - Jaws. Kingsley Amis noted that he was the best thing in both film and book and boy was he right! One of the few cases where a henchman overshadows the main villain of the piece, I fear.

What are our thoughts on this one?

Hugo Drax was a much more interesting character and his actions, motivation and backstory were better explained in MR than Stromberg's were in TSWLM. Stromberg comes across as an oceanic nutter and little else, but then the film was more obsessed with action, stunts and spectacle and little else - a criticism that could be levelled against all of the Lewis Gilbert Bond films - but most especially this one. I've never understood all the love for this comic book Bond film, really.

Ludovico

Stromberg is just... there really. I always thought he was a poor man's Blofeld mixed with a poor man's Goldfinger. He may have needed more screentime, maybe there was nowhere to go with the character. I think one of the flaws of TSWLM (I understand its appeal but personally I am not a fan) is that the antagonism between Bond and Stromberg is never developed. He is as generic as generic can be. Oh and he is lecherous towards Anya... But nothing is done with it. What if he had wanted to destroy the world but keep her alive as a sex slave out of some sick infatuation? That would have been interesting.

Samuel001

I agree with the thoughts so far that he isn't up to much. So very, bland really. You can tell he was Blofeld but changed just by watching the film. Just one of the many problems I have with The Spy Who Loved Me.

thelivingroyale

I like Stromberg, his speech to Bond about the sea is one of my favourite villian speeches and he had some great moments throughout the film.

I think TSWLM gets lots of unfair flack on here, which I was surprised at when I joined because it's one of the really popular, iconic films like GF.

chrisisall

I like TSWLM a lot, but as Bond-Lite- less filling but tastes great. ;)
As an adult comic book version of Bond, it's the best. Better than GF or YOLT IMO. I liked Stromberg a lot as well.
But I WOULD have liked the movie to be as serious as Chris Wood's novelization, though!

echo

Samuel001 wrote:

You can tell he was Blofeld but changed just by watching the film.[/i].

Yes. When he was still Blofeld, I wonder how his first encounter with Bond would have been handled.

ElliotCarver

Him being Blofeld could actually have benefited the movie, and actually make it so that Moore had some sort of personal conquest in the movie. I'd imagine the first scene with them would have at least touched upon Tracy, which could be something different for Moore. Saying all that, I actually like Stromberg.

Dragonpol

I like very much the idea of Stromberg being an ersatz Blofeld - this was originally the plan - to have SPECTRE return under new leadership, but the McClory litigations prevented this from happening post-1975. You can still see elements of Blofeld/Dr. No there. Stromberg's webbed hands show up much better on DVD UE than they ever did on my old video versions!

Baltimore_007

Jurgens worked fine enough as he was, I wouldn't in a million years of wanted him to resemble Blofeld in that release. But it's true Stromberg does spend a lot of the time sitting around giving orders, but remember he was on Atlantis for a lot of the time and didn't have far to stretch his legs, unless he wanted to go on shore. Jurgens is a good actor, or was, especially in The Enemy Below for example, but I feel was wasted in Spy. He's not nearly menacing enough, has little to do, and was overall disappointing. Not a character that stays long in the memory, and of course, got on the wrong end of Moore, in one of the latter's more 'ruthless moments'

Dragonpol

I'm hoping to an article/review of The Spy Who Loved Me from a revisionist point of view and I hope to incorporate all of these elements into it and more.

Dragonpol

I've been thinking this one over again in my brainbox and I thought I'd bump it as I enjoy esoterica like this. I have changed tack with the article to make it more about the science fiction and religious origins of the original villain Karl Stromberg. i hope to cover some new ground with this particul;ar article as well as on this thread...

identigraph

While not the best villan he is bonkers in a very understated way which is quite effective, he probably would have benefited from a bit more screen time.

TheWizardOfIce

Dragonpol wrote:

I like very much the idea of Stromberg being an ersatz Blofeld - this was originally the plan - to have SPECTRE return under new leadership, but the McClory litigations prevented this from happening post-1975. You can still see elements of Blofeld/Dr. No there. Stromberg's webbed hands show up much better on DVD UE than they ever did on my old video versions!

I actually never realised he had webbed hands until I read the Wood novelisation. I can see them now on bluray but back in the day on ITV it was impossible to make out.

By the way does anyone understand why when Naomi says 'Mr Stromberg prefers not to shake hands' the first thing Bond does is offer his hand? Why is he trying deliberately to wind him up, or worse humiliate a man who is sensitive about his 'disability'?

If Stromberg had been blind would Bond have gone in and silently moved all his furniture around? I really don't get his motivation here.

WillyGalore

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

I like very much the idea of Stromberg being an ersatz Blofeld - this was originally the plan - to have SPECTRE return under new leadership, but the McClory litigations prevented this from happening post-1975. You can still see elements of Blofeld/Dr. No there. Stromberg's webbed hands show up much better on DVD UE than they ever did on my old video versions!

I actually never realised he had webbed hands until I read the Wood novelisation. I can see them now on bluray but back in the day on ITV it was impossible to make out.

By the way does anyone understand why when Naomi says 'Mr Stromberg prefers not to shake hands' the first thing Bond does is offer his hand? Why is he trying deliberately to wind him up, or worse humiliate a man who is sensitive about his 'disability'?

If Stromberg had been blind would Bond have gone in and silently moved all his furniture around? I really don't get his motivation here.

:))

identigraph

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

I like very much the idea of Stromberg being an ersatz Blofeld - this was originally the plan - to have SPECTRE return under new leadership, but the McClory litigations prevented this from happening post-1975. You can still see elements of Blofeld/Dr. No there. Stromberg's webbed hands show up much better on DVD UE than they ever did on my old video versions!

I actually never realised he had webbed hands until I read the Wood novelisation. I can see them now on bluray but back in the day on ITV it was impossible to make out.

By the way does anyone understand why when Naomi says 'Mr Stromberg prefers not to shake hands' the first thing Bond does is offer his hand? Why is he trying deliberately to wind him up, or worse humiliate a man who is sensitive about his 'disability'?

If Stromberg had been blind would Bond have gone in and silently moved all his furniture around? I really don't get his motivation here.

Because Bond is just a bit of a git really!

pachazo

I am fine with Stromberg just the way he is. Jaws really is the star villain of the film so it's ok that Stromberg is just there to give him orders. Jurgens did well with the role and injected enough personality into the character for me to be satisfied with it all.

Baltimore_007

Jurgen's Stromberg was one of the most forgettable and banal main adversaries of all the James Bond franchise. The Spy Who Loved Me is an overall fine adventure (it has Barbara Bach) and Moore turns in a more serious approach than usual, there are lots of exotic locations and fun to be had, but Jurgens was one of the biggest frustrations of that years release. Did he ever leave Atlantis or set foot on solid ground ? From what I can recall from a last viewing, No ? Seemed to sit around too much and giving orders, rather than getting things done for himself. He does provide Moore with one of his most ruthless moments towards the end however, so it wasn't bad all the way through, but if you want to see the actor in question in a decent performance, you'd do worse than check out The Enemy Below, but for his one and only James Bond appearance - it didn't live long in the memory. About as forgettable and one-dimensional as Julian Glover's Kristatos a few short years after this release. If he had left the sanctuary of Atlantis and been a little more ubiquitous in his appearances, it could of worked so much better, but for an actor of such caliber - it was retrospectively disappointing

0013

Stromberg is an average villain, not the best but neither the worst. And TSWLM has so many strong points that the lack of a great villain doesn't sank the movie, in my opinion.
He has some cool lines, and over-the-top plan, a beautiful assistant Naomi and a great cruel death by Bond. Kristatos, Carver, Whitaker and Graves are worse than him.

NapoleonPlural

Really they should have cast someone with a fishy, slimy countenance maybe Peter Cushing, I don't know. I guess Jurgens did have some menace about him, but he seemed to play the role too broadly, like hey, he's just a Bond villain so it writes itself. Maybe Jurgens does have a walrus way about him, but his accent seems rather American, which takes the otherwordly chill out of him.

Dr_Yes

I just watched TSWLM again the other day. I agree that the Stromberg character is underdeveloped. One thing that struck me was how brief and nearly pointless the initial meeting between Bond and Stromberg is. There's a little speech about exploring the undersea world and the display of a scale model for a future underwater city. Then that's it. Meeting's over. At least in YOLT there was some rationale for Bond going undercover to meet Osato other than just to say hello. And while I'm at it, if that undersea kingdom hasn't been created yet, why jump the gun and start WW3? Moreover, doesn't Stromberg realize that radioactivity from nuclear war will destroy sealife too? Drax's scheme in MR was also outlandish yet more logical.

chrisisall

Dr_Yes wrote:

Drax's scheme in MR was also outlandish yet more logical.

If we're going there, then Blofeld's scheme in DAF made even MORE sense...

StirredNotShaken

People go to bash Stromberg and praise Drax, but at least Stromberg had, in Curd Jurgens, an actor who could, I don't know, act?

Dr_Yes

StirredNotShaken wrote:

People go to bash Stromberg and praise Drax, but at least Stromberg had, in Curd Jurgens, an actor who could, I don't know, act?

I don't fault Jurgens; it's the script. That Stromberg is as interesting as he is comes down to Jurgens's superior screen presence compared to the bland Michel Lonsdale.

Baltimore_007

Drax's plan was to obliterate the earth and start a new life in space, Stromberg had the same idea, but a life at sea. I think the Drax' plan was more feasible, and at least the Lonsdale character was by far a much more memorable name - a character with substance - that wasn't so one-dimensional as to what Jurgens could put together

I think the Stromberg character is perhaps TSWLM's biggest setback. It works for exotic locations, lovely women, suspense and other standout characters, and Moore does a fine job of things, but the main villain seems to weigh things down a little. Waste of a fine actor with so much potential

NapoleonPlural

There's another silly, short scene in TSWLM, it's when Anya is briefed by Gogol about 1) One of our subs is missing and 2) Oh, your lovers died. Okay, meeting's over, I've got to catch the last 20 minutes of the golf open. It's the way it's officially wrapped up, a meeting of international importance, in just 2 mins or so.

Ludovico

pachazo wrote:

I am fine with Stromberg just the way he is. Jaws really is the star villain of the film so it's ok that Stromberg is just there to give him orders. Jurgens did well with the role and injected enough personality into the character for me to be satisfied with it all.

interesting. It is,true that Jaws is the one who has more screen presence and whose antagonism with Bond is most developed. In a way, the henchman is the main villain.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

pachazo wrote:

I am fine with Stromberg just the way he is. Jaws really is the star villain of the film so it's ok that Stromberg is just there to give him orders. Jurgens did well with the role and injected enough personality into the character for me to be satisfied with it all.

interesting. It is,true that Jaws is the one who has more screen presence and whose antagonism with Bond is most developed. In a way, the henchman is the main villain.

Yes, some very interesting observations there, a bit like Colonel Rosa Klebb and 'Red' Grant, I suppose.

Tracy

Jurgens guest starred on the classic german cop show Derrick , playing a con man selling apartments or something.....he also plays the uncle of the young girl , sadly no subs but interesting to watch ;)

Dragonpol

As I'm researching on the character of Karl Stromberg again I thought that I would revive this thread to see if we can come up with any fresh insights on him and Curt Jurgens in The Spy Who Loved Me (1977), in this the 40th anniversary month of the film that helped ensure the continuation of the Bond series.

mattjoes

Stromberg is my least favorite villain of the Moore era, and probably one of my least favorite in the entire series. A fairly bland character.

ForYourEyesOnly

He's saved by some good lines. Underdeveloped, but not one of the worst.