Never Say Never Again..."Yes, But My Martini's Still Dry"

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  • edited May 2011 Posts: 139
    After reading all the above reviews, written by people far better at it than me, I'm left without much to add.
    Quoting saunders: even a below par unofficial Connery Bond is far better than one less Bond film
    in the universe

    Think you summed it up perfectly, sir.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Quoting SirHenryLeeChaChing: Eric Serra's failure to capture how a Bond movie should be scored.

    Simply not true. Serra's GE score is much, much more Bond-esque and Barryesque than any of Arnold's scores.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited May 2011 Posts: 7,132
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: Simply not true. Serra's GE score is much, much more Bond-esque and Barryesque
    than any of Arnold's scores.
    In any case Serra brings a fresh approach while Arnold is merely imitating Barry most of the time.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Quoting GoldenGun: In any case Serra brings a fresh approach while Arnold is merely imitating Barry most of the time
    I must say the musical complexity of Serra's GE score is much closer to Barry than Arnold's basic Barry imitation. Serra made a very good score for GE. Whether you love or hate it is up to you. But the bottom line remains that Serra made a score that's musically greater than anything Arnold's made from TND to QOS. Hate Chopin or Brahms all you like, you cannot deny that their music is musically excellent. Same thing for Serra. Musically speaking, his score is nearly as excellent as Barry, and lightyears ahead of all the Arnold scores.
  • Quoting DaltonCraig007: Simply not true. Serra's GE score is much, much more Bond-esque and Barryesque than any of Arnold's scores.

    :-)) It's just amazing how unaware some native English speakers are when they write things. First things first, the definition of the suffix "esque" is- "In the style of; resembling".

    DC, you're a younger guy and I don't want to hammer you over a simple mistake in definition, so please let me share some of my knowledge and experience with you. Your phrases "Bondesque" and "Barryesque" are much more applicable to Arnold than Serra. First of all, Serra's score sounds unlike any other Bond soundtrack, most especially those of John Barry. If you want to compare the complexities and say that Serra's sound is more so than Arnold's, by all means do so if you feel that is true. But by the definition of "esque", your statement regarding Serra is simply not true. The "James Bond Sound" consists of loud brass, lush sweeping strings, etc, it is a recognizable style which is exactly the kind of sound Arnold is going for. If you subscribe to GG's statement that Arnold is aping Barry's Bond sound, which I believe in many areas is indeed true, then that is much closer to the definition of "esque" because at least he is trying to make Bond-like music. His soundtracks sound A LOT more like Barry than Serra ever did in style. Serra's approach is very atonal sounding and much different, and I think he fails to capture anything of Barry's Bond sound. It sounds like a typical bad French movie soundtrack. Same for Legrand's NSNA, neither simply do not fit a Bond movie, and to be frank I also think none of the other "one off" composers of previous Bond films really got it either. But you know what, at least I could hear an attempt and appreciate some of what they were trying to bring to the table as a result. When I hear such Arnold compositions such as "Surrender" and "Vesper's Theme", I'm hearing two songs right there that sound like they belong in a Bond movie and something Barry would have approved of, which are two more songs than I hear on the entire GE soundtrack save the title theme, in which I can tell that Bono and The Edge have a clue what Bond music should sound like. I honestly think Legrand and Serra gave little to no thought of the musical legacy Barry left.

    For those who don't know me and are new, I've been a Bond fan for 42 years now. A musician for 35 years, a touring one at times, and a composer as well. I feel I'm more than qualified to speak on both subjects, and I would rather say nothing than bash and repeat myself over and over and over and argue ad nauseum with someone who has a differing opinion. I've seen the NSNA movie and heard the soundtrack enough times over the past 28 years, and heard the GE soundtrack enough times over the past 16 years to know my definition of "atrocious" when I see and hear it, and that what I think of NSNA save Brandauer and Carrera and what I think of the Goldeneye soundtrack as well. I don't care what any Arnold bashers think or say, he isn't Barry and no one is, and he has his faults but I'm mostly happy with his efforts and if he does the Olympics (I am glad for him and hope it goes well) then I rather hear another imitator than the garbage Legrand and Serra wrote any day of the century.

    Sir Henry




  • Posts: 638
    Welcome Sir HenryLeeChaChing
  • edited May 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Quoting SirHenryLeeChaChing: I don't care what any Arnold bashers think or say, he isn't Barry and no one is,
    and he has his faults but I'm mostly happy with his efforts and if he does the
    Olympics (I am glad for him and hope it goes well) then I rather hear another
    imitator than the garbage Legrand and Serra wrote any day of the century.
    Good to hear someone defend Arnold, who I think gets a lot of unjust criticism round these parts. Welcome indeed.


    Regarding NSNA, that has to be one of the very few Bond films I'm not particularly bothered about watching. I remember seeing a fair chunk of it on tv a few years ago and finding it very dull. Maybe I should give it a re-watch but I really can't be bothered to be honest. The fan reviews on the internet haven't exactly been encouraging and the film just looks rather cheap judging from the bits I've seen.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    The problem with the music in the Bonds is that, more than any other ingrediant in the films (such as actors, directors etc) John Barry completely defined the sound of Bond. Anything else either sounds like an immitation or it has to be so redically different that it removes itself from the 'sound' of the series altogether.

    Connery was the definitive actor to play Bond but the role was always there for further interpretations. Young defined the look of the Bonds, the style, the editing, but there was always room for further directors to add their influence.

    John Barry was such a brilliant artist, his music so compelling, his theme songs so mesmerising, that it really would take someone truly special to capture the real sound of Bond, yet be sufficiently different to avoid comparison or accusations of mimicry.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Quoting SirHenryLeeChaChing: and heard the GE soundtrack enough times over the past 16 years to know my definition of "atrocious"
    Again that is not true. Hate the GE soundtrack all you like, it is factually a great score, musically speaking. If you prefer to have poor soundtracks musically with Arnold instead of great soundtracks like Serra, it's your call. I think having a musically complex score like GE is much closer to Barry than have someone like Arnold dumbing down the 'Barry sound' because he simply doesn't have enough musical knowledge. Honestly the best soundtrack from Arnold, musically speaking, was QOS. And it's less much, much worst than GE. He seemed to atlast, after 5 Bond scores, having learnt from basic musical knowledge. Which is very sad, as Arnold has been a composer for more than a decade now. Serra should have continued on, end of. Hiring Arnold was a huge step down from the knowledgable Eric Serra. That's like if they hired Zac Efron after Timothy Dalton. One of them is a great actor (or composer), and the other is simply not as talented, in the sense he just seems to have only the basic knowledge of acting (or composing music). No point in arguing, as Serra, once again, is factually a greater composer than Arnold. So if you insist on hiring less competent people, your call.

    So, the bottom line is that you prefer a poor score musically speaking because it sounds like Barry's Bond sound, instead of a much greater score musically speaking but that doesn't sound like the familiar Bond sound.

    In other words, you prefer a poorly talented actor because he looks like the traditional James Bond, instead of a much more talented actor but who doesn't look like the Bond image.

    That is a very poor and limited way of thinking, IMO.
  • Posts: 1,497
    Quoting SirHenryLeeChaChing: Same for Legrand's NSNA, neither simply do not fit a Bond movie, and to be frank
    I also think none of the other "one off" composers of previous Bond films really
    got it either.
    I thought Hamlisch did a fine job with TSWLM--it captures the Moore Bond era perfectly. Conti even did a decent job for the second half of FYEO: I was hearing more of the lush orchestration there. I'm no expert, but my ears liked what they heard during those parts (though I still despise the disco funk in the beginning chase). As far as Legrand, his score was for the most part understated that it didn't distract me, but I suppose you could argue, it didn't add anything either--which is what Bond scores do so well. I heard there was talk of completely re-doing the NSNA score in the 90's but this didn't pan out...
    Quoting BAIN123: The fan reviews on the internet haven't exactly been encouraging
    Did you not see the subject of this thread? Give it a chance mate; I did and I was pleasantly surprised. Sure, it wasn't the greatest Bond in the world, but I went into it with an open mind, not holding the non-EON aspect or even the dated qualities against it, but instead looking for the qualities I do like in a Bond film. I'm sure you'll find some enjoyable things in it as I did!


  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Sir Henry and DC, I want to come down from the middle. Objective conclusions cannot be drawn regarding musical preferences, no matter how educated in the matter you are. One may feel more suited to break down a composition into parts and "test" them with respect to many existing theories, but ultimately it is not an exact science.

    That said, I don't think it's worth the trouble anyway. I'm fairly convinced myself of the qualities of Serra's score for GE, but I understand why some people hate it. By the same token I like some of Arnold's stuff and I'm willing to defend it vigorously should anyone feel the need to bash and trash it, but again, I'm not surprised that some folks are - to say the least - offended by Arnold's scores.

    I'm not a musician, nor am I trained in understanding the arts of composing the way some folks are. My opinion therefore doesn't command obedience but neither does the opinion of the educated musicians. I am thankful for one thing though, and that's the fact that I can sit through a Bond film and worry about other things than the music. No matter how upset I am over some of Arnold's choices for TWINE or DAD for example, they're still the least of my concerns when watching those two.

    And now, let us all play along and continue this discussion on thread. I want to nevertheless thank you both for a most entertaining and interesting debate. ;;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2011 Posts: 15,718
    @DarthDimi I'm not saying that you can't hate Serra's score. I am merely saying that the GE soundtrack is factually much greater, musically speaking than any of Arnold's scores.

    Let's put it this way : One can prefer Zac Efron as an actor than Marlon Brando. But to say the former is more talented than the latter is fundamentally wrong.

    There is a difference between not liking/hating a score and denying it's musical greatness.

    Sir Henry is of course entitled to his opinion about not liking GE's soundtrack. But when he says Serra's score is musically poor, it is very wrong.

    No-one is forced to like good scores, but denying them of their musical greatness is another thing entirely. And it is wrong.
  • Posts: 172
    @ DarthDimi:i think we need new thread just for Bond soundtrack or other musical item
  • Posts: 5,767
    Like GE, NSNA has a score that would be able to become something of a Bond sound if it would be repeated in a row of films. Those one-off scores which obviously don´t remind of Barry have exactly that problem (maybe others too), namely that by being one-off departures they inevitably compete with Barry´s works. The scores for TSHLM or FYEO are not so discernible from Barry for a layman, so they don´t face the same challenge.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Quoting boldfinger: Like GE, NSNA has a score that would be able to become something of a Bond sound if it would be repeated in a row of films.
    I seriously doubt that if Serra had returned for TND, he'd make the sound as GE. The beauty of GE is that the score fits perfectly the movie. I think Serra would have made an entirely different sound for TND. A more 'traditional' orchestral score? Judging from his work in Adèle Blanc-Sec, he would certainly have rivalized Barry without dumbing down/simply imitating his sound.
  • Posts: 5,767
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: I seriously doubt that if Serra had returned for TND, he'd make the sound as GE. The beauty of GE is that the score fits perfectly the movie. I think Serra would have made an entirely different sound for TND. A more 'traditional' orchestral score?
    Perhaps. But at the time his score for Leon The Professional had a lot of similarities with the GE score.
  • Posts: 825
    Well I liked Never Say Never Again. It was rival to the Eon 13th Bondmovie Octupussy. I loved it. But it a shame I can't get the DVD in Australia. Bond did mobile but a Yamera motorcycle with Gadgets & he drove his beloved Bentley which he was seen in From Russia with Love. I know it was made for Sean Connery. Not anyone else. I sure of that. 1983 in that year wasn't Spectular of the 2 Bond movies but Late Christopher Reeves third Superman movie,Clint Eastwood reprise his Dirty Harry Movie which he directed Sudden Impact. Robert Vaught & David McCallum starred the last time in The return of the Man From Uncle. With Avengers Patrick McNee as thier Uncle Superior.
  • Posts: 76
    A true Bond Flick.
    Bassinger is a Bond Girl.
    Kind of modern Remake of THUNDERBALL 1965.
    One of the Best BOND themes..
    built by the Folks who Brought you BRASSIL 66 SERGIO MENDES......
    If you are OLD enough to remember that.
  • Posts: 638

    One of the Best BOND themes..
    built by the Folks who Brought you BRASSIL 66 SERGIO MENDES......
    Yes, I rather like the theme as well. A bit of trivia, Lani Hall who sang the theme song was married to Herb Alpert, who did the theme music to the other non-EON Bond film, CR67.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 12,837
    just watched never say never again, i basically found an old DVD of it and decided that since everybody says it was awful and seems to totally disregard its existence that i would watch it too see if it was all that bad.

    i really enjoyed it. the main thing i liked was that it pointed out that 007 was aging and out of shape rather than just having him be superman. whereas octopussy, released at the same time, just carried on as usual despite moores age (i liked moores bond but he should've called it quits after moonraker). There were some great action scenes like the motorbike chase, the videogame scene was cool, the fight at the spa was intresting because again it showed how bond was aging and getting weaker (plus he won by throwing piss in the baddies face, i found that hilarious).

    edward fox was cool as M and the whole "im the new M and i dont like bond" thing was done here way before goldeneye.

    one more thing, everybody likes to point out that octopussy squashed NSNA at the box office, but really it only beat it by a little bit.
  • Monsieur_AubergineMonsieur_Aubergine Top of the Eiffel Tower with a fly in my soup!
    edited October 2011 Posts: 642
    The Piss in the face is hilarious.

    I find NSNA a bit of a curio. I sit there enjoying it but the main let down for me is the hugely evident hash of direction which is strange given the director Kershner (empire strikes back!!)

    I also can't forgive the black masking tape across the chase cars grill - if you can't afford to secure the permissions, do something else don't just patch over it - kinda sums up the film in general.

    Saying that though I do enjoy it and especially the scenes in the dance studio! "4-5-6-7 down" lucky floor. :-)

    Brandauer is also menacing and quirky and raises the film from poor to average.

    Connery is more lean than 12 years previous...if only he had had a better swansong from the official series.
  • Better than most of RM efforts; apart from LALD and Octopussy.

    And of course, Onatoop's first incarnation.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    edited October 2011 Posts: 7,854
    We didn't need 2 Thunderballs, honestly. M was good, and a black Felix Leiter was okay (it's being done far better, now), but 2 Thunderballs were unnecessary.
  • Posts: 161
    It has some fun parts, but most of it really doesn't work. I'll take even the lesser Bonds such as TWINE and DAD over this any day.
  • The only good part was Barbara Carrera, who is a severely underrated Bond girl.
  • Posts: 1,310
    Was it THAT bad? No, it wasn't. Was it THAT good? No, it wasn't.

    I find Never Say Never Again a very mixed bag. Barbara Carrera was a great villainess, Klaus Maria Brandaur makes a good villain and truth be told I think Sean Connery looked healthier here than he did in Diamonds Are Forever...he even seems to be having a bit of fun, too. However, the film is far too long and really drags in the last 30 minutes or so. Kim Basinger is only so-so as the lead (Claudine Auger was far better), and Michel Legrand's score is (generally) one of the worst I have ever heard for any motion picture. The other thing is that NSNA seems to be more of a spoof than legit knockoff; it is even sillier than the Moore films (Rowan Atkinson's character, the Q scene, Edward Fox's extreme overacting, Bond winking at the camera at the end....etc.) It would be at the bottom of my Bond lists for me, I'd give Never Say Never Again a 5.5/10...but then again it would beat both Die Another Day and The Man with the Golden Gun.

    PS. I don't classify NSNA as a true James Bond film. I do own the film on DVD, but it is not kept with the official Bond films I own...also, when asked to give my ranking of the films, I never include NSNA...but perhaps I should never say never....again. :-W
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Yes a mixed bag. Connery looked good. Barbara Carrera was great fun, and Brandaur was a good villain. Yet ... well, I didn't want to see another Thunderall, either. I still don't consider NSNA as a true James Bond film.
  • As I'm reminded by others, NSNA is an official Bond film (i.e. the producers legally secured the film rights), it's just not part of the Eon series. By that standard, the 1967 Casino Royale is also an "official" Bond film.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,582
    I always preferred NSNA to Octopussy (not by a lot, though). I guess it's just seeing Bond older and less physical which kind of 'humanizes' him, if you get what I mean. Interesting take on Thunderball. Just a fun romp, and I never get sick of it. Also, it's good to see Bond on a bike for once.
  • edited October 2011 Posts: 152
    I think that if this movie had a John Barry score, it would easily be ranked in the top 15 range, but the movie's awful score alone brings it down to the 20-23 range.
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