Spectre Composer Is Thomas Newman

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I wonder what a modern Serra Bond score would sound like today. I'd take it over another criminally dull Newman score.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 17,753
    Since the release of SF and SP I've tried my best to like these two scores, listening to them regularly. Possibly even more than some of the Barry scores during the last few years. The conclusion I've made about them, is that I feel they are too forgettable. Only a few tracks has stuck from all this listening, while the rest... Well, there is something about the way they sound, which I just don't feel comfortable about. They sound a bit "cold" - in lack of a better word. Cold in a way that I find the two scores more suitable to a tech-y spy thriller with a different character than Bond. Had these two scores been made for a Bourne-like franchise, I probably wouldn't mind it, but with Bond and all the history with Barry's music, George Martin's music, and all those memorable efforts in the music department, I would rather had scores that would have one foot - if only a toe in the past, bringing out the music which make Bond rather different than your random spy film.

    I hope we get a score for Bond 25 that bring back that certain classy, bombastic and fun Barry-esque sound. That might be too much to ask for, but one can hope!
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    They reflect the personality of the composer. Moderately talented, dull, vain and anally retentive.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    Eric Serra is a great musician, something he has already effectively demonstrated in many of his Luc Besson collaborations, such as Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and of course The Fifth Element. He simply shouldn't have been picked for GE, a franchise film with an authentic, rich and well-known musical tradition. Serra isn't the guy to deliver a little Barry combined with something original, something that belongs in the 90s as well as in the 60s, something that surprises us as well as meets our expectations. Serra does what Serra wants and if Serra has to do what we want, he can't commit or deliver. Arnold knew exactly what Bond fans want out of a Bond score and so he did his very best to bring the perfect cocktail of old and new, of Barry and Arnold, of Bond and beyond to TND. Serra, however, was never going to not be Serra.

    Furthermore, Serra was part of that French "Cinéma du look" movement, breaking with tradition as if it were a mission statement. When producers fell in love with his Léon score and asked him to basically repeat that effort for the new computer focused and therefore tech savvy, digital era Bond film, why would he pull out some OHMSS Barry? The first Bond of the 90s, the first Bond in fact after an impossibly long hiatus, could do with a radical change in tone, or so they thought. Turns out they were wrong and Bond films, even in the 90s, still needed some YOLT and OHMSS to work best. But that doesn't necessarily mean Serra is to blame.

    I urge people to take a plunge into some of his most successful scores (Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and The Fifth Element) and then try to understand what he was going for with GE. Even then, whether you like the score in a vacuum or not, I honestly think it works fantastically well for the movie. Yes, the tank chase music he had planned was fortunately pulled from the soundmix and The Experience Of Love probably wasn't the best way to close the film. However, GE is one of the few genuine thrillers in the Bond series, with some exceptionally cold and tense scenes (the Severnaya takeover, getting out the train, setting timers for the London destruction, ...) and in many cases, Serra's metallic, pulsating and dark tunes add tremendously to the feeling. In the absence of opulent orchestras as used by Barry, Kamen, Arnold and others, some of GE's tenser moments also feel sharper, edgier, more serious and indeed more naturalistic at times. And that's precisely what I've always associated GE with: more grounded in reality than any other Bond film. Serra has something to do with that, believe it or not.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Although Serra's Experience Of Love is hands down the worst track ever written for a Bond film its over the end credits and I can ignore it. Overall his GE score is very unique and although not very Bondian in the classical sense it does work very well in the majority of scenes (obviously not including the DB5/Ferrari chase there) and for the film it is paired with - clearly it would be totally wrong for something like OP but with the griminess of Russia it works. Although its still quite low down in my rankings I can't have the contempt for Serra that I do for Newman's SP effort.

    Started a weekend Rogerthon (thats watching all of Rog's films in a row not some sordid sexual practice by the way) and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.

    And in defence of Newman SF is passable and even good in places. But its his seeming disinterest for SP that rankles so much. But there again maybe he bumped into the scriptwriters one day and after a chat decided 'Well if they can get away with doing such a lackadaisical job why should I break into a sweat?'
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.

    I wasn't saying that it would save the film, but merely improve it substantially.

    Question: Does it cost them anything extra if they were to use Arnold's old scores (over Newman's)? I'm sure Barry got a decent sized check when they used his material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry and/ or Norman always get checks when the Bond theme was played? I remember hearing about the court case and all the cash which Norman was owed etc.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 17,753
    Started a weekend Rogerthon (thats watching all of Rog's films in a row not some sordid sexual practice by the way) and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.

    Martin's score for LALD is funky in a way that suits the 70's perfectly, same for Hamlisch. Although Conti's effort isn't my cup of tea, at least it's fun and entertaining. Watched LTK last night, and although that score is a bit repetitive, it didn't at any point take me out of what was happening on screen. The last two scores has, in a way.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.

    I wasn't saying that it would save the film, but merely improve it substantially.

    Question: Does it cost them anything extra if they were to use Arnold's old scores (over Newman's)? I'm sure Barry got a decent sized check when they used his material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry and/ or Norman always get checks when the Bond theme was played? I remember hearing about the court case and all the cash which Norman was owed etc.
    Yes, they would have to pay a royalty to the composer whose work they use whenever they use it. As an example, I'm sure Arnold got credit and some money for the use of his Bond theme version in SF (when the DB5 was revealed).

    I believe it's better to look forward than to the past when it comes to Bond scores (apart from the famous Bond theme of course, but even then I'm quite happy for them to sprinkle it in then and there and not overuse it). That's what keeps them creative.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.

    I wasn't saying that it would save the film, but merely improve it substantially.

    Question: Does it cost them anything extra if they were to use Arnold's old scores (over Newman's)? I'm sure Barry got a decent sized check when they used his material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry and/ or Norman always get checks when the Bond theme was played? I remember hearing about the court case and all the cash which Norman was owed etc.

    Interesting question. I remember postulating at the time that could it be that the reason that Newman didn't use a full on rendition of the Bomd theme in scenes that were crying out for it, such as the plane chase or the boat coming out from under the MI6 building as it collapses, was that it would mean EON would have to pay Norman a fee or that Newman wouldn't get paid as much for that track?

    Does anyone know how the whole royalties system works? Obviously Norman gets a credit on each film and, presumably, some money as well but does he get more for a film like LTK, for example, that flogged the Bond theme to death than he does for one like CR that used it very sparingly? Or is it just a flat fee if EON play it once or 20 times in a film?

    Perhaps Babs checked the figures and suddenly realised how much of the budget Mendes had pissed away with his childish explosion so rang Newman:

    Babs: Tom how much of the Bond theme is there in the score?
    Newman: Well at the moment I've got it going at full blast in the PTS, the car chase, the finale. After all the criticism of SF I'm really channeling my inner Barry. It's going to be a belter.
    Babs: Cut them all. Sam has just blown up $100mil in one shot. There's no money left to pay Monty.
    Newman: What? Seriously? I've been working night and day to make an absolutely brilliant score to appease the disgruntled fans. Have you heard of a bloke on the internet called @Murdock? He'll hammer me if I don't do better this time round. And there's another guy called @TheWizardOfIce; he's an absolute c..
    Babs: Tom, Tom I know. I'm sorry but Sam didn't tell me he had a put such a big chunk of money on a bonfire until today. At the end of the day no one cares about the fans. It's all about the money remember.
    Newman: But there's only 2 days to go till the premiere? What can I do?
    Babs: Look you'll just have to sort it. I've got my own problems. I've only just realised Sam shot the wrong script and we're stuck with that step brother crap we had all decided had to go.
    Newman: Well I suppose I could just copy and paste half of SF's score instead?
    Babs: Perfect. Get on with it. I've got to get on and call the poster guy and tell him to scrap his amazing classic hand drawn poster and just go with a publicity shot of Dan holding a gun instead. Sam's really dropped me in it here.
    Newman: Yeah but cheer up you did get the world record remember.
    Babs: True. Every cloud I suppose.
    Newman: But Babs you do realise that copying my SF tracks lands you with the same payment problem? And my fee as a multi Oscar nominated composer is far higher than Monty 'only wrote one track of note on his career and even that was only a success thanks to Barry's polish' Norman? Babs? Oh she already rang off.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 5,767
    @TheWizardOfIce :-)) Brilliant stuff as always, sir! Do you work on such lines, or do they just like that appear at the top of your head?



    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Eric Serra is a great musician, something he has already effectively demonstrated in many of his Luc Besson collaborations, such as Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and of course The Fifth Element. He simply shouldn't have been picked for GE, a franchise film with an authentic, rich and well-known musical tradition. Serra isn't the guy to deliver a little Barry combined with something original, something that belongs in the 90s as well as in the 60s, something that surprises us as well as meets our expectations. Serra does what Serra wants and if Serra has to do what we want, he can't commit or deliver. Arnold knew exactly what Bond fans want out of a Bond score and so he did his very best to bring the perfect cocktail of old and new, of Barry and Arnold, of Bond and beyond to TND. Serra, however, was never going to not be Serra.

    Furthermore, Serra was part of that French "Cinéma du look" movement, breaking with tradition as if it were a mission statement. When producers fell in love with his Léon score and asked him to basically repeat that effort for the new computer focused and therefore tech savvy, digital era Bond film, why would he pull out some OHMSS Barry? The first Bond of the 90s, the first Bond in fact after an impossibly long hiatus, could do with a radical change in tone, or so they thought. Turns out they were wrong and Bond films, even in the 90s, still needed some YOLT and OHMSS to work best. But that doesn't necessarily mean Serra is to blame.

    I urge people to take a plunge into some of his most successful scores (Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and The Fifth Element) and then try to understand what he was going for with GE. Even then, whether you like the score in a vacuum or not, I honestly think it works fantastically well for the movie. Yes, the tank chase music he had planned was fortunately pulled from the soundmix and The Experience Of Love probably wasn't the best way to close the film. However, GE is one of the few genuine thrillers in the Bond series, with some exceptionally cold and tense scenes (the Severnaya takeover, getting out the train, setting timers for the London destruction, ...) and in many cases, Serra's metallic, pulsating and dark tunes add tremendously to the feeling. In the absence of opulent orchestras as used by Barry, Kamen, Arnold and others, some of GE's tenser moments also feel sharper, edgier, more serious and indeed more naturalistic at times. And that's precisely what I've always associated GE with: more grounded in reality than any other Bond film. Serra has something to do with that, believe it or not.
    Very accurately put, @DarthDimi. I even would agree to GE being more grounded in reality, despite the PTS freefall defying the laws of physics.

  • edited June 2017 Posts: 5,767
    Started a weekend Rogerthon (thats watching all of Rog's films in a row not some sordid sexual practice by the way)
    How disappointing.

    and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.
    I find Kamen´s compostions sometimes hard to understand, but he´s got a wonderfully fresh and natural orchestra sound, which compesates for a lot IMO. One massive problem I have with contemporary composers is that on every blockbuster these days the orchestra sounds artificial, because the producers try to give it more boom. I blame Hans Zimmer for introducing that idea, but we´ve gone far beyond just him being to blame. David Arnold, despite all his possible faults, seems the last composer who makes the orchestra sound somehow natural even on scores where he mixes orchestra and computer sounds.
    And in defence of Newman SF is passable and even good in places. But its his seeming disinterest for SP that rankles so much. But there again maybe he bumped into the scriptwriters one day and after a chat decided 'Well if they can get away with doing such a lackadaisical job why should I break into a sweat?'
    The SF score has a lot of decent enough tracks, but a film score that´s not compiled from a number of pop songs should offer some coherence throughout, which SF´s score clearly doesn´t.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    boldfinger wrote: »
    and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.
    I find Kamen´s compostions sometimes hard to understand, but he´s got a wonderfully fresh and natural orchestra sound, which compesates for a lot IMO. One massive problem I have with contemporary composers is that on every blockbuster these days the orchestra sounds artificial, because the producers try to give it more boom. I blame Hans Zimmer for introducing that idea, but we´ve gone far beyond just him being to blame. David Arnold, despite all his possible faults, seems the last composer who makes the orchestra sound somehow natural even on scores where he mixes orchestra and computer sounds.
    As I've said before, Desplat, Djawadi & Jackman do it very well. We don't need to go to Arnold for a reference standard (and btw, I always found his 'orchestra' boomy too).
    boldfinger wrote: »
    And in defence of Newman SF is passable and even good in places. But its his seeming disinterest for SP that rankles so much. But there again maybe he bumped into the scriptwriters one day and after a chat decided 'Well if they can get away with doing such a lackadaisical job why should I break into a sweat?'
    The SF score has a lot of decent enough tracks, but a film score that´s not compiled from a number of pop songs should offer some coherence throughout, which SF´s score clearly doesn´t.
    I thought it did, purely because it came from a different composer with a different vision. All of the one off's have been quite distinctive to my ears, including Kamen.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.

    I wasn't saying that it would save the film, but merely improve it substantially.

    Question: Does it cost them anything extra if they were to use Arnold's old scores (over Newman's)? I'm sure Barry got a decent sized check when they used his material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry and/ or Norman always get checks when the Bond theme was played? I remember hearing about the court case and all the cash which Norman was owed etc.

    Interesting question. I remember postulating at the time that could it be that the reason that Newman didn't use a full on rendition of the Bomd theme in scenes that were crying out for it, such as the plane chase or the boat coming out from under the MI6 building as it collapses, was that it would mean EON would have to pay Norman a fee or that Newman wouldn't get paid as much for that track?

    Does anyone know how the whole royalties system works? Obviously Norman gets a credit on each film and, presumably, some money as well but does he get more for a film like LTK, for example, that flogged the Bond theme to death than he does for one like CR that used it very sparingly? Or is it just a flat fee if EON play it once or 20 times in a film?

    Perhaps Babs checked the figures and suddenly realised how much of the budget Mendes had pissed away with his childish explosion so rang Newman:

    Babs: Tom how much of the Bond theme is there in the score?
    Newman: Well at the moment I've got it going at full blast in the PTS, the car chase, the finale. After all the criticism of SF I'm really channeling my inner Barry. It's going to be a belter.
    Babs: Cut them all. Sam has just blown up $100mil in one shot. There's no money left to pay Monty.
    Newman: What? Seriously? I've been working night and day to make an absolutely brilliant score to appease the disgruntled fans. Have you heard of a bloke on the internet called @Murdock? He'll hammer me if I don't do better this time round. And there's another guy called @TheWizardOfIce; he's an absolute c..
    Babs: Tom, Tom I know. I'm sorry but Sam didn't tell me he had a put such a big chunk of money on a bonfire until today. At the end of the day no one cares about the fans. It's all about the money remember.
    Newman: But there's only 2 days to go till the premiere? What can I do?
    Babs: Look you'll just have to sort it. I've got my own problems. I've only just realised Sam shot the wrong script and we're stuck with that step brother crap we had all decided had to go.
    Newman: Well I suppose I could just copy and paste half of SF's score instead?
    Babs: Perfect. Get on with it. I've got to get on and call the poster guy and tell him to scrap his amazing classic hand drawn poster and just go with a publicity shot of Dan holding a gun instead. Sam's really dropped me in it here.
    Newman: Yeah but cheer up you did get the world record remember.
    Babs: True. Every cloud I suppose.
    Newman: But Babs you do realise that copying my SF tracks lands you with the same payment problem? And my fee as a multi Oscar nominated composer is far higher than Monty 'only wrote one track of note on his career and even that was only a success thanks to Barry's polish' Norman? Babs? Oh she already rang off.

    Haha, fantastic post there. I'm equally curious about the royalties system for the JB scores.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Although Serra's Experience Of Love is hands down the worst track ever written for a Bond film
    Technically The Experience of Love wasn't written for GoldenEye. It was written for Leon.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    And this track is another example of how Serra is able to write good, ambient music, albeit maybe less suited for a Bond film.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    It reminds me a lot of Kamen's work on Licence to Kill. He used accoustics in his ambient tracks as well. The scene with Bond and Pam on the boat come to mind.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    Except that Serra relies heavy on synth, which isn't bad by the way. This man composes with electronics and synthesizers. That's his comfort zone. That's where he produces great material, like The Fifth Element.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Agreed. I rather enjoyed Serra's use in synths for GoldenEye especially. I need to track down more of his work.
  • Posts: 11,425
    boldfinger wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce :-)) Brilliant stuff as always, sir! Do you work on such lines, or do they just like that appear at the top of your head?



    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Eric Serra is a great musician, something he has already effectively demonstrated in many of his Luc Besson collaborations, such as Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and of course The Fifth Element. He simply shouldn't have been picked for GE, a franchise film with an authentic, rich and well-known musical tradition. Serra isn't the guy to deliver a little Barry combined with something original, something that belongs in the 90s as well as in the 60s, something that surprises us as well as meets our expectations. Serra does what Serra wants and if Serra has to do what we want, he can't commit or deliver. Arnold knew exactly what Bond fans want out of a Bond score and so he did his very best to bring the perfect cocktail of old and new, of Barry and Arnold, of Bond and beyond to TND. Serra, however, was never going to not be Serra.

    Furthermore, Serra was part of that French "Cinéma du look" movement, breaking with tradition as if it were a mission statement. When producers fell in love with his Léon score and asked him to basically repeat that effort for the new computer focused and therefore tech savvy, digital era Bond film, why would he pull out some OHMSS Barry? The first Bond of the 90s, the first Bond in fact after an impossibly long hiatus, could do with a radical change in tone, or so they thought. Turns out they were wrong and Bond films, even in the 90s, still needed some YOLT and OHMSS to work best. But that doesn't necessarily mean Serra is to blame.

    I urge people to take a plunge into some of his most successful scores (Le Grand Blue, Nikita, Léon and The Fifth Element) and then try to understand what he was going for with GE. Even then, whether you like the score in a vacuum or not, I honestly think it works fantastically well for the movie. Yes, the tank chase music he had planned was fortunately pulled from the soundmix and The Experience Of Love probably wasn't the best way to close the film. However, GE is one of the few genuine thrillers in the Bond series, with some exceptionally cold and tense scenes (the Severnaya takeover, getting out the train, setting timers for the London destruction, ...) and in many cases, Serra's metallic, pulsating and dark tunes add tremendously to the feeling. In the absence of opulent orchestras as used by Barry, Kamen, Arnold and others, some of GE's tenser moments also feel sharper, edgier, more serious and indeed more naturalistic at times. And that's precisely what I've always associated GE with: more grounded in reality than any other Bond film. Serra has something to do with that, believe it or not.
    Very accurately put, @DarthDimi. I even would agree to GE being more grounded in reality, despite the PTS freefall defying the laws of physics.

  • Posts: 11,425
    According to Wilipedia
    bondjames wrote: »
    Just imagine how much better SP could've been if the team behind it had used Arnold's CR/QoS scores as temp music! :) Why, oh why, did those unimaginative, uninspired people use SF?!? It's just as sinful, but at least we'd get a thrilling score.
    I have imagined it with Arnold's score. It wouldn't have been much better in my view. The issues with SP are more fundamental than the score and I think many would acknowledge that.

    The reason they used SF (including many specific cues) was to tie the film emotionally to the earlier entry. To establish the connectivity which they were trying to retroactively shoehorn in, including Silva's after the fact complicity with Spectre.

    I wasn't saying that it would save the film, but merely improve it substantially.

    Question: Does it cost them anything extra if they were to use Arnold's old scores (over Newman's)? I'm sure Barry got a decent sized check when they used his material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Barry and/ or Norman always get checks when the Bond theme was played? I remember hearing about the court case and all the cash which Norman was owed etc.

    Interesting question. I remember postulating at the time that could it be that the reason that Newman didn't use a full on rendition of the Bomd theme in scenes that were crying out for it, such as the plane chase or the boat coming out from under the MI6 building as it collapses, was that it would mean EON would have to pay Norman a fee or that Newman wouldn't get paid as much for that track?

    Does anyone know how the whole royalties system works? Obviously Norman gets a credit on each film and, presumably, some money as well but does he get more for a film like LTK, for example, that flogged the Bond theme to death than he does for one like CR that used it very sparingly? Or is it just a flat fee if EON play it once or 20 times in a film?

    Perhaps Babs checked the figures and suddenly realised how much of the budget Mendes had pissed away with his childish explosion so rang Newman:

    Babs: Tom how much of the Bond theme is there in the score?
    Newman: Well at the moment I've got it going at full blast in the PTS, the car chase, the finale. After all the criticism of SF I'm really channeling my inner Barry. It's going to be a belter.
    Babs: Cut them all. Sam has just blown up $100mil in one shot. There's no money left to pay Monty.
    Newman: What? Seriously? I've been working night and day to make an absolutely brilliant score to appease the disgruntled fans. Have you heard of a bloke on the internet called @Murdock? He'll hammer me if I don't do better this time round. And there's another guy called @TheWizardOfIce; he's an absolute c..
    Babs: Tom, Tom I know. I'm sorry but Sam didn't tell me he had a put such a big chunk of money on a bonfire until today. At the end of the day no one cares about the fans. It's all about the money remember.
    Newman: But there's only 2 days to go till the premiere? What can I do?
    Babs: Look you'll just have to sort it. I've got my own problems. I've only just realised Sam shot the wrong script and we're stuck with that step brother crap we had all decided had to go.
    Newman: Well I suppose I could just copy and paste half of SF's score instead?
    Babs: Perfect. Get on with it. I've got to get on and call the poster guy and tell him to scrap his amazing classic hand drawn poster and just go with a publicity shot of Dan holding a gun instead. Sam's really dropped me in it here.
    Newman: Yeah but cheer up you did get the world record remember.
    Babs: True. Every cloud I suppose.
    Newman: But Babs you do realise that copying my SF tracks lands you with the same payment problem? And my fee as a multi Oscar nominated composer is far higher than Monty 'only wrote one track of note on his career and even that was only a success thanks to Barry's polish' Norman? Babs? Oh she already rang off.

    According to Wikipedia Norman pocketed £600k in royalties upto 1999, so hard to imagine that it was the cost that put them off using the Bond theme.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Norman
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited June 2017 Posts: 16,351
    EON should just slip Norman a million and buy the rights from him.
  • Murdock wrote: »
    EON should just slip Norman a million and buy the rights from him.

    No way Norman would ever sell the James Bond theme. Not for a measly million. They're going to produce James Bond films forever—and James Bond films will always use the James Bond theme in whatever form—which means his family line will continue to receive royalties forever. Courtesy of John Barry's brilliance.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Well in any case something has to be done. It's been so underused in the last 10 years. I'm tired of the full theme just being saved for the end credits. I'd like to see it's full fledged return in some action music again.
  • Me too. It is strange that the Bond theme stinginess only started with the Craig era. It made sense with CR, and then Arnold worked it in subtle ways throughout QoS. I'm inclined to think Newman just hasn't been very adept at wielding it and we'll hopefully see a big return of the theme with whoever takes up the baton next.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I can understand it for CR and QOS too but It's been sidelined for too long. I heard Newman was forced to use it so I guess he thought he was too good to use it. Hopefully whoever composes the next Bond film is eager to use it to it's fullest potential. I'd love something like TND's score where it's used to perfection.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I have been perfectly satisfied with the Bond theme's use in SF and SP. It made a bold entrance during the DB5 reveal in the former film (Arnold's CR rendition), and was masterfully incorporated into an original composition by Newman in the PTS of SP (probably the best track on the entire score).

    I don't need to hear it used over and over just to get a rise out of people. Less is more as far as I'm concerned. As others have noted, parts of the Bond theme show up in both QoS & SF in a number of instances. It's teased but not overused.

    Newman showed with Los Muertos Vivos Estan that he could creatively tweak it well, like Barry did so many times, and like others (Martin, Hamlisch, Conti, Kamen etc. etc.) have done previously as well. That is how I'd like to see it used going forward. Sparingly and incorporated into an original melodic composition. Serra did it superbly with the Goldeneye Overture for example.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Well we've had less for far too long It's time to bring it back in style. I'm sick of it boringly being saved for the end credits. One great use isn't enough.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    Well we've had less for far too long It's time to bring it back in style. I'm sick of it boringly being saved for the end credits. One great use isn't enough.
    Yes, and I'm ok with that, as long as it is brought back creatively and in an interesting way each time (where the original elements incorporated by the composer enhance the actual Bond theme), which as I've said before I thought every composer prior to 1997 did very well. The first time I've heard it done so effectively for a long time was during the SP PTS, and it was quite refreshing.
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