Spectre Composer Is Thomas Newman

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  • edited June 2017 Posts: 6,844
    bondjames wrote: »
    I have been perfectly satisfied with the Bond theme's use in SF and SP. It made a bold entrance during the DB5 reveal in the former film (Arnold's CR rendition), and was masterfully incorporated into an original composition by Newman in the PTS of SP (probably the best track on the entire score).

    I haven't been, I'm afraid. The Aston Martin reveal in Skyfall is perhaps my very least favorite scene in the film and deploying that incredible CR version of the James Bond over it just further exacerbates the fan-wankery and bad comedy of the scene, in my opinion.

    "Los Muertos Vivos Estan" is good. There are also a couple nice Thunderballesque brass touches in "She's Mine" and (much more briefly) in "Westminster Bridge."

    But by and large, Newman has not been using the James Bond theme to its best potential in action sequences or during moments that would really call for it. When we have heard the Bond theme in action sequences it has been subdued, slow-burning, just another part of the background, played overly melodically to the point of nearly disappearing completely.

    And when we have gotten those big brassy statements of the Bond theme in Newman's work, they have, very unfortunately, been played for laughs. As in the aforementioned DB5 reveal scene—or even during Skyfall's climax when the Aston is destroyed. As much as I like "She's Mine" on its own, in the film the music says "Oh no they did-n't just mess with the Aston Martin, now Bond's pissed, time for some angry James Bond theme, y'all!"

    How about playing the James Bond theme, loud and brassy and proud, when Bond does something truly worthy of the James Bond theme? That's how they did it in the old days, circa '62-'02 (even '06/'08).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    How about playing the James Bond theme, loud and brassy and proud, when Bond does something truly worthy of the James Bond theme? That's how they did it in the old days, circa '62-'02 (even '06/'08).
    I was under the impression that is what he did in the SP PTS and very well. That was a Grade A Bond moment. How many of these do you want in a film?

    I found it had degenerated into a serious cliche during the Brozza era (that bloody tie straightening underwater in TWINE comes to mind), and I don't ever want to go back to that again. Given how some (myself included) have reacted negatively to the manner in which the old tropes have returned in SP, I'm not sure if it will necessarily work well unless the theme is massaged and tweaked into something more original when used.

    Some of examples of Barry's genius in tweaking the theme are during the ride to Osato's in the back of the car (Japanese flavour) in YOLT, or the way he gave it an apropos howling nature during the hovercraft sequence in DAF. Even Martin gave it a funk nature for LALD. That's the kind of creativity I want to see more of if they're going to use it more.
    I haven't been, I'm afraid. The Aston Martin reveal in Skyfall is perhaps my very least favorite scene in the film and deploying that incredible CR version of the James Bond over it just further exacerbates the fan-wankery and bad comedy of the scene, in my opinion.
    That was a throwback scene with a throwback car. It made sense to use a more classic, old school composition. They perhaps used Arnold's version (as opposed to Barry's) for cost reasons. Not sure. I thought the composition was perfect for the reveal of a 60's vehicle.

    I loved the music when the car was blown up in SF btw.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    How about playing the James Bond theme, loud and brassy and proud, when Bond does something truly worthy of the James Bond theme? That's how they did it in the old days, circa '62-'02 (even '06/'08).

    Think you've answered your own question there mate. Trouble is the action in the last two films has been so mediocre it doesn't warrant the Bond theme at full blast. Newman could well be chomping at the bit to unleash it but then he looks at whats on screen and thinks 'Hardly TWSLM ski jump is it? I'm not even going to bother.'
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 6,844
    bondjames wrote: »
    How about playing the James Bond theme, loud and brassy and proud, when Bond does something truly worthy of the James Bond theme? That's how they did it in the old days, circa '62-'02 (even '06/'08).
    I was under the impression that is what he did in the SP PTS and very well. That was a Grade A Bond moment.

    I found it had degenerated into a serious cliche during the Brozza era (that bloody tie straightening underwater in TWINE comes to mind), and I don't ever want to go back to that again. Given how some (myself included) have reacted negatively to how some of the old tropes have returned in SP, I'm not sure if it will necessarily work well unless it's massaged and tweaked into something more original when used.

    Some of examples of Barry's genius in tweaking the theme are during the ride to Osato's in the back of the car (Japanese flavour) in YOLT, and the way he gave it an apropos howling nature during the hovercraft sequence in DAF. Even Martin gave it a funk nature for LALD. That's the kind of creativity I want to see more of if they're going to use it more.

    All great examples of tweaking the Bond theme (and I actually particularly like the playful and chipper tweak Arnold gives the theme when Bond bypasses a bridge by submerging right under it in TWINE), but I'm referring in particular to the action scenes, the stunts, the BIG moments when you really want to let that brass rip.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I haven't been, I'm afraid. The Aston Martin reveal in Skyfall is perhaps my very least favorite scene in the film and deploying that incredible CR version of the James Bond over it just further exacerbates the fan-wankery and bad comedy of the scene, in my opinion.
    That was a throwback scene with a throwback car. It made sense to use a more classic, old school composition. They perhaps used Arnold's version (as opposed to Barry's) for cost reasons. Not sure. I thought the composition was perfect for the reveal of a 60's vehicle.

    I loved the music when the car was blown up in SF btw.

    My issue with the scene goes much deeper than the music choice. It was an out of place moment in the film, played purely for laughs, and totally out of character with Craig's Bond and out of tone with the film. It shouldn't have been there in the first place, and in my opinion playing that old school, ultra-cool composition against that jokey scene actually makes light of the music, almost turning the Bond theme itself into a joke the audience is supposed to wink at. (I understand others probably see it differently though.)

    How about playing the James Bond theme, loud and brassy and proud, when Bond does something truly worthy of the James Bond theme? That's how they did it in the old days, circa '62-'02 (even '06/'08).

    Think you've answered your own question there mate. Trouble is the action in the last two films has been so mediocre it doesn't warrant the Bond theme at full blast. Newman could well be chomping at the bit to unleash it but then he looks at whats on screen and thinks 'Hardly TWSLM ski jump is it? I'm not even going to bother.'

    Ha! Point taken. (Waltz must have been in the same camp.) Still, there were clear opportunities. For instance, during the conclusion of Spectre, when Bond commandeers that boat out of the collapsing MI6 building and onto the Thames. Perfect opportunity to let rip the James Bond theme, right? Out of certain danger and into the clear and onto the chase, right? Instead we get more of the droning "Moors" theme. Why? I just don't get who made these choices and why.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I think in each film, the Bond theme should be played two or three times in full-blown fashion, and the rest of the time it should only be integrated subtly into parts of the score, even transformed and played with a bit. Octopussy comes to mind as a film that makes good use of the Bond theme: gunbarrel aside, it is played about three times in a straightforward version (marketplace chase, train chase and palace fight) and then used in more subtle ways (Bond Look Alike and the music at Checkpoint Charlie are some cues that use the chromatic vamp of the theme, but lay a different melody on top of it).

    Something else to take into account is that the Bond theme has the John Barry sound in its DNA, so Barry could afford to rely less on it in some films and still have the music sound Bondian. The Cable Car music in Moonraker comes to mind. Listen to the melody played by the muted trumpets (G-C-F-Ab-F'-E'). The last four notes are an obvious reference to the B section of the Bond theme (E-G-D#-D). A composer whose sound is not all that similar to Barry's, not all that Bondian in a traditional fashion, would probably do better in integrating the theme a bit more straightforwardly than someone with a more innately Bondian sound. Although I'm not his biggest fan, I must say, in my opinion, David Arnold has a Barryesque sound, which is why scores such as Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace sound Bondian, while not using the Bond theme too much. Thomas Newman lends a different touch to his scores, which is why I would've welcomed a more prominent, in-your-face use of the Bond theme. I was very happy when Bond managed to pull the helicopter up in the Spectre PTS, and the Bond theme played for a few seconds in all its brassy glory. Wish there was a bit more of that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    All great examples of tweaking the Bond theme (and I actually particularly like the playful and chipper tweak Arnold gives the theme when Bond bypasses a bridge by submerging right under it in TWINE), but I'm referring in particular to the action scenes, the stunts, the BIG moments when you really want to let that brass rip.
    I have an uncomfortable feeling that you're referring to the tie straightening incident that I mentioned in my earlier post. That scene, and the incorporation of the Bond theme during it, was more offensive to my ears than anything Newman did during the DB5 reveal in SF. I thought the SF scene was a respectful nod to the past (including Bond theme in its more original style, even if reimagined by Arnold) and that's why it got cheers every time I saw the film in the theatre.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Both are great moments.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    When I first saw the trailer for Skyfall and heard the electronic version of the Bond theme at the end I was hoping we'd get something like this.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117
    and I actually particularly like the playful and chipper tweak Arnold gives the theme when Bond bypasses a bridge by submerging right under it in TWINE

    Sorry but I'm afraid that musical flourish combined with the underwater tie tweak is one of the nadirs of the series.
    For instance, during the conclusion of Spectre, when Bond commandeers that boat out of the collapsing MI6 building and onto the Thames. Perfect opportunity to let rip the James Bond theme, right? Out of certain danger and into the clear and onto the chase, right? Instead we get more of the droning "Moors" theme. Why? I just don't get who made these choices and why.

    Absolutely. But when it comes to asking 'Who made these choices and why?' with SP the list is longer than War & Peace.

    SP actually reminded me of Man of Steel. I'd have forgiven a lot if at the end of the film, when Superman is buried under rubble and looks dead, the classic John Williams theme had started up and Supes had flown out to kick ass. Similarly with SP a full blast burst of the Bond theme at the climax might have made a big difference.

    It's all particularly curious given how much they let Mendes flog the fan wankery into the ground with stuff like the DB5. They are not afraid of straying into Brozza cliche territory with that particular dead horse but the Bond theme at full pelt seems totally verboten for some reason. Can it really be that they are too stingy to pay Monty his money for using it?
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I think in each film, the Bond theme should be played two or three times in full-blown fashion, and the rest of the time it should only be integrated subtly into parts of the score, even transformed and played with a bit. Octopussy comes to mind as a film that makes good use of the Bond theme: gunbarrel aside, it is played about three times in a straightforward version (marketplace chase, train chase and palace fight) and then used in more subtle ways (Bond Look Alike and the music at Checkpoint Charlie are some cues that use the chromatic vamp of the theme, but lay a different melody on top of it).

    Something else to take into account is that the Bond theme has the John Barry sound in its DNA, so Barry could afford to rely less on it in some films and still have the music sound Bondian. The Cable Car music in Moonraker comes to mind. Listen to the melody played by the muted trumpets (G-C-F-Ab-F'-E'). The last four notes are an obvious reference to the B section of the Bond theme (E-G-D#-D). A composer whose sound is not all that similar to Barry's, not all that Bondian in a traditional fashion, would probably do better in integrating the theme a bit more straightforwardly than someone with a more innately Bondian sound. Although I'm not his biggest fan, I must say, in my opinion, David Arnold has a Barryesque sound, which is why scores such as Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace sound Bondian, while not using the Bond theme too much. Thomas Newman lends a different touch to his scores, which is why I would've welcomed a more prominent, in-your-face use of the Bond theme. I was very happy when Bond managed to pull the helicopter up in the Spectre PTS, and the Bond theme played for a few seconds in all its brassy glory. Wish there was a bit more of that.

    Very astute post Sir.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    I love your insistence that SF and SP are like chalk and cheese. The old tropery was already very much in evidence in SF. That's been Mendes biggest contribution to the series - a massive step backwards. My overwhelming impression after SF was that the clean slate of CR and QOS had been suddenly recluttered with all the tired old nods and winks. What you see as disappointing in SP was there in bucket loads with SF IMO.

    Any way. I agree there's no need for the theme to be used incessantly. I don't have an issue with it not being in every action cue.

    Having said that would be nice if the composer felt free to use it if an occasion presents itself. And I don't necessarily mean some fancy new reworking (of which we've had plenty) but a more trad application.

    It does feel like not using it or not using it overtly has become the new norm. To the extent that you really notice when it's not used at an obvious moment.

    One thing I actually used to like about how Barry used the Bond theme was that it wasn't necessarily about a 'big' Bond moment. I can't remember which film now, perhaps FRWL, where Barry uses it as Bond checks his hotel room for bugs. The way he uses it the theme is more about character than action.
  • Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.
    I find Kamen´s compostions sometimes hard to understand, but he´s got a wonderfully fresh and natural orchestra sound, which compesates for a lot IMO. One massive problem I have with contemporary composers is that on every blockbuster these days the orchestra sounds artificial, because the producers try to give it more boom. I blame Hans Zimmer for introducing that idea, but we´ve gone far beyond just him being to blame. David Arnold, despite all his possible faults, seems the last composer who makes the orchestra sound somehow natural even on scores where he mixes orchestra and computer sounds.
    As I've said before, Desplat, Djawadi & Jackman do it very well. We don't need to go to Arnold for a reference standard (and btw, I always found his 'orchestra' boomy too).
    We seem to differ in perception there, as I regard Djwadi and Jackman as prime examples for over-compressed and too bass-heavy orchestra sound.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    I love your insistence that SF and SP are like chalk and cheese. The old tropery was already very much in evidence in SF. That's been Mendes biggest contribution to the series - a massive step backwards. My overwhelming impression after SF was that the clean slate of CR and QOS had been suddenly recluttered with all the tired old nods and winks. What you see as disappointing in SP was there in bucket loads with SF IMO.

    Any way. I agree there's no need for the theme to be used incessantly. I don't have an issue with it not being in every action cue.

    Having said that would be nice if the composer felt free to use it if an occasion presents itself. And I don't necessarily mean some fancy new reworking (of which we've had plenty) but a more trad application.

    It does feel like not using it or not using it overtly has become the new norm. To the extent that you really notice when it's not used at an obvious moment.

    Agreed that both Mendes films hammer the old cliches - apart from the Bond theme for some reason.

    Also agreed that now they seem terrified to use it at all and seem to have bought into the notion that you can only use it during a big Bond moment but they dont want to use it there because thats too obvious. However they havent got anyone with Barry's ability to slip in in elsewhere so consequently we hardly get it at all.
    Getafix wrote: »
    One thing I actually used to like about how Barry used the Bond theme was that it wasn't necessarily about a 'big' Bond moment. I can't remember which film now, perhaps FRWL, where Barry uses it as Bond checks his hotel room for bugs. The way he uses it the theme is more about character than action.

    Lets be honest its use in the checking the bugs scene in FRWL is terrible. The theme at full pelt while Bond nonchalantly walks round his room sounds ludicrous. Calvindyson gets it pretty much nailed in his review.

    But I take your point. I like how Barry uses it in TMWTGG when they find Scaramanga on the wrong side of the river. It's as if it to say 'Brace yourself folks this aint over yet. Here comes something special.' Of course that groundwork was destroyed by the slide whistle a few seconds later but nonetheless.

    I also like when Bond is pushed out of the plane in MR and drives the Merc onto the rails in OP and Barry uses it. It's like a motif for 'well here's a situation so ludicrous that only Bond could end up there so lets see how he gets out of it'. That particular arrangement by Barry also has a 'business as usual' kind of vibe rather than the 'big stunt payoff' a la TSWLM, particularly in MR when there's a shot of Rog looking nonchalant as f**k as he glances down at the pilot with the parachute and then just gets on with it.

    Also we havent had the original version from DN since OHMSS now. Why is that? Its still by far the best. There were Barry's various arrangements (but pretty much the same) used from the TMWTGG GB onwards until he retired, Martin, Hamlisch, Conti, Kamen and Serra all did their own and now we're stuck with the Arnold version from CR for all eternity it seems. I presume its for reasons as boring as denying Monty his money. If another composer does an arrangement then perhaps the fee is somewhat split between him and Monty and given they are paying the composer a flat fee for the score it means they only need to pay Monty his reduced share and make a small saving? I'm purely speculating of course but it wouldnt surprise me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I love your insistence that SF and SP are like chalk and cheese. The old tropery was already very much in evidence in SF. That's been Mendes biggest contribution to the series - a massive step backwards. My overwhelming impression after SF was that the clean slate of CR and QOS had been suddenly recluttered with all the tired old nods and winks. What you see as disappointing in SP was there in bucket loads with SF IMO.
    I'm a little confused. I was under the impression that I spent the last couple of posts defending Newman's work in both SF '&' SP. This is the music thread.

    Are you referring to my preference for the 2012 film itself over the 2015 effort? If so, that has nothing to do with the tropes. It has to do with the visuals, the performances and the characterizations, all of which I prefer by some considerable margin in SF. Furthermore, what action there is (limited) is executed exceptionally well in SF. I truly enjoy the PTS sequence (it's visceral, non linear and exciting) and the Home Alone denouement. I can't say the same for any action sequence in SP (save for perhaps the Hinx fight, and even that was somewhat of a rehash of encounters I preferred in earlier films).
    Getafix wrote: »
    Any way. I agree there's no need for the theme to be used incessantly. I don't have an issue with it not being in every action cue.

    Having said that would be nice if the composer felt free to use it if an occasion presents itself. And I don't necessarily mean some fancy new reworking (of which we've had plenty) but a more trad application.

    It does feel like not using it or not using it overtly has become the new norm. To the extent that you really notice when it's not used at an obvious moment.

    One thing I actually used to like about how Barry used the Bond theme was that it wasn't necessarily about a 'big' Bond moment. I can't remember which film now, perhaps FRWL, where Barry uses it as Bond checks his hotel room for bugs. The way he uses it the theme is more about character than action.
    I agree with you in principle, but would like an imaginative reworking of it when it's used (we get the original version during the GB after all, as long that comes back permanently).

    I'm not too keen on the use of the theme in FRWL tbh. That's a film where I thought it was a bit overbearing. I much prefer TB/YOLT/DAF, where Barry finesses & tweaks it rather than blares it out.
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    and George Martin deserves a lot of credit as being the first man to take over from Barry. He makes it quite different but at the same time its still clearly a Bond soundtrack. I would say the same for Hamlisch too who gives TSWLM the epic feel it needs. Conti is of its time and at least he came up with some decent cues although Kamen I just find tiresomely repetitive. But all of those guys you at least felt were actually trying.
    I find Kamen´s compostions sometimes hard to understand, but he´s got a wonderfully fresh and natural orchestra sound, which compesates for a lot IMO. One massive problem I have with contemporary composers is that on every blockbuster these days the orchestra sounds artificial, because the producers try to give it more boom. I blame Hans Zimmer for introducing that idea, but we´ve gone far beyond just him being to blame. David Arnold, despite all his possible faults, seems the last composer who makes the orchestra sound somehow natural even on scores where he mixes orchestra and computer sounds.
    As I've said before, Desplat, Djawadi & Jackman do it very well. We don't need to go to Arnold for a reference standard (and btw, I always found his 'orchestra' boomy too).
    We seem to differ in perception there, as I regard Djwadi and Jackman as prime examples for over-compressed and too bass-heavy orchestra sound.
    I know where you're coming from re: Djawadi and Jackman, particularly on their respective GoT & Marvel efforts. However, both have the capacity to deliver much more subdued orchestral work as well. Check out the track Valentine from Kingsman. That is as Barry'esque & polished as they come. I'm afraid that outside of a few tracks (mainly on QoS), I've always found Arnold to be heavy handed, and that is one of the primary reasons I don't want him back on Bond. I hear a world of difference between his work and Barry's. I'd liken it to my feelings on Brosnan vs. Moore as Bond. One is the original and the other is a clumsy imitator. I'd much rather hear/see a new approach (a'la Craig) than a rehash.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    @bondjames your words, not mine:
    I found it had degenerated into a serious cliche during the Brozza era (that bloody tie straightening underwater in TWINE comes to mind), and I don't ever want to go back to that again. Given how some (myself included) have reacted negatively to the manner in which the old tropes have returned in SP, I'm not sure if it will necessarily work well unless the theme is massaged and tweaked into something more original when used.

    This was what I was responding to in terms of your apparent view that SF and SP are chalk and cheese when it comes to rehashing the old cliches. It was clear to me within half an hour that SF was off the meter in terms of going back to the stale tropes approach to Bond film making. It was no surprise to me that SP too the route it did.

    Re the music, I thought you'd been criticising the score for SP, but perhaps I just misinterpreted what you'd written.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @Getafix, I think most will agree that it is SP which seemed like the more formulaic effort of the two Mendes entries. It certainly did to me. The damn watch gadget, the car gadget, Craig trying to pull a Moore/Connery (some may like his attempts at insouciance but it fell flat for me. He should stick to hurt/gritty/moody as far as I'm concerned), the throwaway scenes (couch) and horrid witticisms etc. etc. Combine that with action sequences which recall earlier, better scenes (FYEO PTS, TSWLM Lotus chase, FRWL/LALD/TSWLM train fight). It was all so predictable.

    SF may have plagiarized elements of TWINE, but at least from where I sat, it seemed quite fresh in 2012, and still does. We didn't get a traditional Bond girl (rather, we got a Bond 'dame'), no GB, limited Bond theme (which some have been banging on about on this thread), and no 'lair' ending (rather, it's at Bond's ancestral home). The fact that the film has limited jet setting as well (most of it takes place in London) was a nice change. Ultimately though, the performances and characterizations are great and that is what resonated with me.

    What also impressed me about that film (as an anniversary entry) is that nearly every scene is a reimagination of a previous one in a prior film. It's done so well that it's not directly obvious (well, perhaps it is to some) unlike in DAD (the prior anniversary effort). I have to hand it to Mendes - he did a great job with that. Even the bulldozer sequence in the PTS is a riff with a twist on the one in CR, as an example.

    I certainly much prefer the SF score to SP's, because the latter borrows heavily from the former. Although, as I mentioned (perhaps on another thread), that likely was intentional, so that EoN could emotionally link the two stories (including the stupid retro-Silva Spectre angle). I really don't mind the SP score, unlike others. Newman is quite good with the slow stuff and the ambient music. It's in the action scoring that he fails, but then again, I've always felt that Arnold wasn't great there either.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    You claim SF is fresh and then point out it's a rehash on so many levels.

    Purvis and Wade obviously recycle heavily from their dire TWINE plot, but SF 'borrows' even more heavily from TMWTGG.

    Any way, rehashing old plots is not the worst crime. Bond has often done that. SF's main crime for me is that I find it dull and messy.

    SF is also riddled with stale cheese from start to finish. The lacklustre PTS, with the Brosnanesque cuff-popping, M not trusting Bond (for the zillionth time), CGI monsters, lame jokes from onlookers on the tube (this is where the bad Roger Moore tribute stuff set in), awful use of the DB5 (as if Mendes wasn't aware it had appeared in practically every movie for the past 20 years), and poorly directed, lacklustre action from start to finish. Even Mendes doesn't rate the SF PTS and its relentless, strangely tensionless mediocrity. Any way, I could go on and on but the hallmarks of Mendes Bond are there right from the start. SP was exactly what I expected it to be, which is probably why I enjoyed it more than a lot on here appear to have done. I went in with low expectations, which Mendes met.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    You claim SF is original and then point out it's a rehash on so many levels.
    Yes, but the rehash was deliberate and inventively delivered, at least in my mind. Mendes was doing it as an homage on account of the anniversary aspect. Plus, as I've said, the performances, visuals and characterizations resonated for me and this helped me to overlook the plot holes which upset others . We don't have a useless character like Scott's wasting time in SF, for instance.
    Getafix wrote: »
    SP was exactly what I expected it to be, which is probably why I enjoyed it more than a lot on here appear to have done. I went in with low expectations, which Mendes met.
    That may be the key point. My expectations were quite high for 3 years, but I'll admit they were deflated terribly by Craig's (misinterpreted) wrist cutter comments and Smith's tripe. Even then the film failed to meet my lowly expectations.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I realise my take on SF was pretty unusual at the time, although I do know people who were equally unimpressed back in 2012. As with TB I fail to see SF's commercial success as necessarily an indication of its quality.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Me neither. I don't equate commercial success with quality. I would have been happier if it had made less money, and then perhaps Mendes and the entire crew would have been more on their game for the successor film rather than demonstrating hubris (Guinness World Record explosion & Kubrick attempts).

    Irrespective, he's done, and hopefully Newman and Arnold are as well (as far as I'm concerned). I really want a new take on the whole thing for B25.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Have been saying this for ages. Was never massively impressed by Arnold, but after Newman I would have preferred him to remain.
  • Posts: 5,767
    Getafix wrote: »
    I love your insistence that SF and SP are like chalk and cheese. The old tropery was already very much in evidence in SF. That's been Mendes biggest contribution to the series - a massive step backwards. My overwhelming impression after SF was that the clean slate of CR and QOS had been suddenly recluttered with all the tired old nods and winks. What you see as disappointing in SP was there in bucket loads with SF IMO.

    Any way. I agree there's no need for the theme to be used incessantly. I don't have an issue with it not being in every action cue.

    Having said that would be nice if the composer felt free to use it if an occasion presents itself. And I don't necessarily mean some fancy new reworking (of which we've had plenty) but a more trad application.

    It does feel like not using it or not using it overtly has become the new norm. To the extent that you really notice when it's not used at an obvious moment.

    Agreed that both Mendes films hammer the old cliches - apart from the Bond theme for some reason.

    Also agreed that now they seem terrified to use it at all and seem to have bought into the notion that you can only use it during a big Bond moment but they dont want to use it there because thats too obvious. However they havent got anyone with Barry's ability to slip in in elsewhere so consequently we hardly get it at all.
    After CR and QoS, all the general public complained about the new Bond film style, while many hardcore fans didn´t bother much because they thought it´s gonna turn anyhow, because CR and QoS were about Bond´s early adventures and showed him becoming the agent everyone knows and loves, and then Eon instead of building on the re-boot actually continued with the most untraditional elements, inserting old elements in a very clumsy way, making the result even more clumsy. It´s like Ridley Scott with Alien: Covenant. I thought it would make sense for the studios also to give the people what they want? Then why are they acting in such insane ways?

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Murdock wrote: »
    I wonder what a modern Serra Bond score would sound like today. I'd take it over another criminally dull Newman score.

    I wouldn't.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 5,767
    I´m too lazy now to research deeper. The last thing I heard from Serra was music from 2006´ Arthur é les Minimoys, which didn´t sound anything like Leon/GE/5thElement. I think hardly any synths, instead lots of orchestra. But I´m not sure.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    He did the Lucy score.
  • suavejmf wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I wonder what a modern Serra Bond score would sound like today. I'd take it over another criminally dull Newman score.

    I wouldn't.

    You would take two hours of this:



    Over Serra's modern sound?



    Why don't we make things easy and just helicopter David Arnold in for the job?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Why don't we make things easy and just helicopter David Arnold in for the job?
    If that's the alternative I'd rather we keep things difficult ;)
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Why don't we make things easy and just helicopter David Arnold in for the job?
    If that's the alternative I'd rather we keep things difficult ;)

    A third helping of Newman would indeed be a whole lot of difficult on my ears. ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    A third helping of Newman would require me to get anger management and therapy.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 17,753


    That was a nice track. Haven't seen the film or heard the soundtrack, but I like this one.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2017 Posts: 24,169
    PRAISE FOR THE SPECTRE SCORE

    Since SP's release, I have made it no secret nor a matter of shame that I love this film and in fact rank it as Craig's second best right behind the perfect CR. SP isn't faultless and when carefully dissected reveals a few weak spots which are hard to ignore in any detailed assessment. But overall I find it to be an almost dreamy adventure, a surreal sort of experience like a nightmare of Bond rather than a factual part of the loose CR-QOS-SF canon, despite the unification effort imposed on the gallery of Craig's Bond villains. And I cannot help but enjoying SP tremendously, looking past the flaws with considerable ease. The film has a powerful mood, my kind of thing, which I especially enjoy in the sweaty and drunk atmosphere of "l'Américain" and in the beautiful and slightly futuristic lair Blofeld occupies in the middle of the desert. This film looks very good and is well shot. I have a lot of love for the character of Madeline Swann too. Léa Seydoux looks great and acts her role well. She may in fact be my favourite Bond girl of the Craig era, ranking slightly above Vesper; and yes I know that's blasphemous.

    Another element of this film I cannot but praise, is Thomas Newman's score. Unlike what its haters claim, it is not a carbon copy of his SF score. A minor few cues are brought back, yes, but this score is fuller, richer and in my opinion a genuinely fascinating achievement. Newman channels John Barry in many of the romantic scenes, first with Sciarra's widow, then with Madeline on the train. The strings, harps and flutes ooze sex and warmth in a composition which I can only describe as truly beautiful. There are moments of effective chills too, horror almost, for example when Blofeld first addresses Bond during the Spectre meeting. In the action scenes, Newman delivers pulse, rhythm and depth, toying with the Bond Theme every now and then, in a fashion I find tremendously effective. Another stand-out moment for me would be the instrumental rendition of the theme song while Bond and Madeline are making love on the train, first full of orchestral splendour, then quieted down and overtaken by a soft piano at sunrise. In between the scenes described above, Newman mixes electronics with ethnic sounds, but always adequately adjusted to the setting. The music enhances the pressure and tension and adds to the drama in the film. I furthermore really love the moments when Newman uses those guitar riffs to create a ticking clock sort of tension.

    Sam Smith's theme song was pissed on by many, but I think it's a beautiful composition, expertly synced with Kleinman's impressive main titles which, by the way, I love to look at, what with the unsettling octopus effects and all. I have but a minor complaint, and that would be Smith's feminine singing. Don't write yourself a song you can't handle...

    I really hope people can give this score an honest reconsideration sometime and appreciate it for what it is. Sadly, John Barry isn't going to return and though I think the world of Arnold's CR and QOS scores, I don't think Newman has to hide in shame. SP greatly benefits from the moody, sometimes dreamy, often exciting and tension building score Newman delivers. I'm in fact on the verge of wanting him back for the next Bond though I sincerely doubt he would return in the absence of Mendes. Either way, Newman brings a different style to the game but then the power of the Bond films is their capacity for changing style now and then and staying fresh and relevant. The SP score, which I think is far better than the similarly misunderstood SF score, blends in nicely with the film Mendes and Craig set out to make.

    Personally, I think SP is a far better Bond film than SF, though the rest of world clearly disagrees. So be it, but I'm not going to let the majority vote damage my enjoyment when watching this film. And turning the volume up to get the full Newman experience, I'm never not having a great time with this film. I wish I knew more about music, technically, so that I could more ably describe how I felt about the SP score. But the above comes from the heart; it's the love a fan has for something he will sporadically defend against the harsh criticism it seems destined to endure. Overtime I believe Newman's scores will retrieve some fan love, like how Goldenthal's scores for Schumacher's Batman films have been redeemed over the years, much more in fact than the films they were used in.

    I hate to disappoint people but I love SP and the score of SP, and I shan't apologise for that. This isn't me trying to be difficult or swimming upstream for the sake of it. I simply recall sitting in the theatre in 2015, feeling satisfied in ways I hadn't felt since CR. And the music plays a big part in that.
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