It Seems There Are More QoS Appreciators Than Thought Before

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    But you said 'practical limitations like budget' - and I'm not sure that QOS's budget led to any actual 'limitations'. Which is in contrast with SF, where the lower budget did lead to some creative manoeuvering. Bognor, etc. Not that you'd know it from watching the film.
  • edited June 2023 Posts: 4,273
    Venutius wrote: »
    But you said 'practical limitations like budget' - and I'm not sure that QOS's budget led to any actual 'limitations'. Which is in contrast with SF, where the lower budget did lead to some creative manoeuvering. Bognor, etc. Not that you'd know it from watching the film.

    Ah sorry, that may have just been the way I worded that specific post. I was being very general about why creative concepts in films (such as editing or cinematography styles) can come about. No, I think you're right, QOS's budget wasn't the overlying problem. If anything the scale of the film, Forster's lack of experience on such projects, and the very tight schedules probably contributed to some of the editing problems. From what I can tell that is (so take with a grain of salt).

    I will say that I actually enjoyed QOS a lot more this time round than previous viewings. The film has its strengths despite my criticisms and actually I don't think it's a million miles away from SF in certain respects. I think both are arguably the most similar films of the Craig era.
  • edited June 2023 Posts: 1,282
    Venutius wrote: »
    But you said 'practical limitations like budget' - and I'm not sure that QOS's budget led to any actual 'limitations'. Which is in contrast with SF, where the lower budget did lead to some creative manoeuvering. Bognor, etc. Not that you'd know it from watching the film.

    I think what the producers and studios need to understand is that you can have a low budget film and make lots more in return. They just need to focus on well done characters and story. They could spend well on cinematography and scoring.

    People like CR not because of the building falling down. They liked it because it was down to earth and Eva Green played Vesper so well. Each of the characters from that film including Mathis, M, and Felix were easy to become engaged with especially in their last films respectively.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,077
    Venutius wrote: »
    Interesting video with some great points..


    Interesting idea that QOS's editing was designed to obscure just how violent the film is and so keep a PG13 rating, because the quick cuts meant that some of the explicit brutality wouldn't register immediately. Don't think I've heard that suggested before. Don't think I agree with him, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.
    Wow, he's really not impressed with SP, though, eh! :-O

    Yeah, he's theory is certainly interesting.

    You should watch his SP review. Boy does he tear it a new one! Mendes's ears must have been burning as he reeled that off...😄
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I remember being nervous before Skyfall was released when I heard about it having a "smaller" budget than QOS, then after seeing it being astounded at the grand scale Skyfall had.
    Shows you what an extraordinary cinematographer and brilliant creatives can do when given time to plan the film
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Yes, absolutely, no one would ever know that SF had all those budgetary issues.
  • Please please please don't make another GE...the movie was ok but it just watered down 007 from the gritti LTK.

    Even during production was filming the satellite fight, Martin Campbell sighed to himself wondering how many times one man can save the world.
  • Please please please don't make another GE...the movie was ok but it just watered down 007 from the gritti LTK.

    Even during production was filming the satellite fight, Martin Campbell sighed to himself wondering how many times one man can save the world.

    What’s wrong with Goldeneye? It’s one of the best Bond films in the series certainly for my money. If anything, Bond 26 should look AT Goldeneye for influence when drastically reinventing Bond again.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ah sorry, that may have just been the way I worded that specific post. I was being very general about why creative concepts in films (such as editing or cinematography styles) can come about.
    Yeah, sorry, 007HallY - my fault for being too literal! Glad you got more out of QOS on your last viewing. Always great to see it get more appreciation.
    You should watch his SP review. Boy does he tear it a new one! Mendes's ears must have been burning as he reeled that off...😄
    Brilliant, I'm definitely going to track it down - the way he savaged it in his incidental asides was pretty damn funny, so a full-length kicking should be a good laugh! :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    Please please please don't make another GE...the movie was ok but it just watered down 007 from the gritti LTK.

    Even during production was filming the satellite fight, Martin Campbell sighed to himself wondering how many times one man can save the world.

    We'd be very lucky to get films that are as consistently good as GoldenEye is.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I love GE, it was the first Bond film that felt fresh and new, as much I love TLD and Dalton as Bond, the series needed a refresh.

    I rewatched QOS the other night, one thing I hope they use going forward is Bond being a solo character. I love in QOS he's using his wits and making discoveries on his own, it pulls you into the story
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 698
    I would like a re-edit of QOS. As much as I enjoy the movie, the hyper-active editing firmly puts it into a 2000s action movie context.

    My feelings on it are a bit more general than that "QOS is actually great" video. I like it because it's stylish, believable, and doesn't waste the audience's time. Also because it's the only Bond movie that has a sense of paranoia and unpredictability to it.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    edited June 2023 Posts: 7,056
    Although it sits at the bottom of the EON films for me, I've always enjoyed QoS. These days though, I find myself enjoying it more. The plot is really cool in how it combines the subjects of natural resources, coups d'état and government corruption. The bad guy is compelling to watch in how slimy and demented he is. I like how the resourceful the girl is, as well as coldly professional at times, while still having a heart, not unlike Bond. The locations and music are great, and I appreciate the stark aesthetic of the film. There is a Bondian essence to the film, but it's filtered through a unique, modern, unconventional (for Bond) prism. This is not something I would want to see become a habit, but it works as a one-off.

    (Edit: The colorful supporting characters introduced in this film are also a plus-- Beam, Elvis, the cab driver...)

    For me, one of the downsides of the movie are the quick cuts and tight shots in some of the action scenes, which, while perhaps intended to get me involved in the action, end up just getting in the way of it. I think a faster cutting style than something like Skyfall would have been fine, but this is too fast at times, especially with some of the tight shots they used. It's just grating. The other big downside --and way more significant than the action scenes-- is that Craig is way too muted and serious as Bond, even considering the emotional circumstances the character finds himself in in this film. His worst performance by far, and interestingly, I was just reading the other day that Craig himself wasn't too happy with that performance. I think humor and charm were sorely lacking in his acting. There is humor in the film, but Craig himself remains way too stern-faced in the funny moments, only showing the slightest hint of fun, but certainly not enough. It's my least favorite performance by any Bond actor in the EON films plus NSNA. The guy's a compelling presence, so it still holds together, but it's leagues away from his best work as Bond.


    Can someone fix the word "appreciaters" in the thread title?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Genuinely not saying it to be contrary, but I love Craig's performance in QOS. Just as much as the film and its direction, Bond himself is the 'bullet from the gun' - he's focused, driven and relentless. He's not going to be stopped and Craig conveys that brilliantly - he's on fire, throughout. Every choice he makes is exactly what was needed: the voice, the tone, the facial expressions, the body language. Perfectly judged. IMO, obvs.
    I love the dark and deadpan gallows and black humour in QOS, too. I thought they'd gauged the humour exactly right for CraigBond and that Dan delivered it perfectly. Some brilliant lines, too: 'You shot him at point blank range and threw him off a roof' - 'I did my best not to.' Classic.
    It's true that Craig said afterwards that he wanted to have some fun with the role in future films and Marc Forster said that if he'd accepted BB's offer to direct DC's third film he'd've wanted it to be lighter and have more typical Bond gags, but I wanted more films like QOS. Still do, tbh.
  • Venutius wrote: »
    Genuinely not saying it to be contrary, but I love Craig's performance in QOS. Just as much as the film and its direction, Bond himself is the 'bullet from the gun' - he's focused, driven and relentless. He's not going to be stopped and Craig conveys that brilliantly - he's on fire, throughout. Every choice he makes is exactly what was needed: the voice, the tone, the facial expressions, the body language. Perfectly judged. IMO, obvs.
    I love the dark and deadpan gallows and black humour in QOS, too. I thought they'd gauged the humour exactly right for CraigBond and that Dan delivered it perfectly. Some brilliant lines, too: 'You shot him at point blank range and threw him off a roof' - 'I did my best not to.' Classic.
    It's true that Craig said afterwards that he wanted to have some fun with the role in future films and Marc Forster said that if he'd accepted BB's offer to direct DC's third film he'd've wanted it to be lighter and have more typical Bond gags, but I wanted more films like QOS. Still do, tbh.

    Yes, Forster said he would have had more Bond tropes including more women which just doesn't quite fit Craig Bond.

    In fact, Strawberry Fields was cast and written in by Forster according to a Q & A panel.

    I liked how Bond's psyche is well displayed in this film.

    Notice how the rain in London at the guy's apartment being searched are in black. It's like the camera is crying. The fire from the hotel during the fight at the end is rage. The cold snow in Kazaan outside Yusef's apartment with M are a firm acceptance at the cold world Bond lives in with his warm duties to M.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Yes, it's not a coincidence that the last scene is Bond walking away into the dark and cold, with Vesper's necklace left behind in the snow.
    Interesting about Forster's comment re. the tropes. One of QOS's strengths is that it didn't just trot them out like a dot-to-dot, it gave some of them a remix and dropped others. Although I know some fans felt the opposite and said that by stirring up the formula a bit it made QOS not even feel like a Bond film. I think that perception's probably fading now, but you used to hear that a lot at the time.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,007
    The environment definitely offers a look into Bond's mind and the overall tone and atmosphere. It's another aspect I love. There are also small moments that give a hint at what's to come next in the action department, like how Mitchell knocks into that woman with the grocery pulley system, sending it violently crashing to the ground, much like the two men will find themselves fighting via ropes and pulleys mere moments later.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited June 2023 Posts: 698
    The only major false note that QOS hits for me is Mathis's death. It doesn't affect the story in any way, it's just stuck in there for a shock moment- there was a big gasp from the audience when Bond popped the trunk, but that was it. If they'd kept him alive as Bonds occasional ally he would've worked perfectly in the Kincaid role at the end of SF.

    Kincaid feels like he's supposed to be a legacy character or someone that we already know (I know they wanted Connery in the role) but we've never seen him before, so the dramatic reveal comes off as odd and unnecessary. Mathis was already a father figure to Bond, so the theme of Bond "saving" his adoptive parents at the end SF would have worked better with Mathis there.

    And obviously it would have made more sense if M had survived, too, seeing as how MI6 had no problem welcoming him back after he kidnapped her.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Mathis was a great character, perfectly realised by Giancarlo Giannini, that's for sure. I can't think of anyone who'd've played him better.
  • slide_99 wrote: »
    The only major false note that QOS hits for me is Mathis's death. It doesn't affect the story in any way, it's just stuck in there for a shock moment- there was a big gasp from the audience when Bond popped the trunk, but that was it. If they'd kept him alive as Bonds occasional ally he would've worked perfectly in the Kincaid role at the end of SF.

    Kincaid feels like he's supposed to be a legacy character or someone that we already know (I know they wanted Connery in the role) but we've never seen him before, so the dramatic reveal comes off as odd and unnecessary. Mathis was already a father figure to Bond, so the theme of Bond "saving" his adoptive parents at the end SF would have worked better with Mathis there.

    And obviously it would have made more sense if M had survived, too, seeing as how MI6 had no problem welcoming him back after he kidnapped her.

    Wow! That would have had sooo much more credibility in SF
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited June 2023 Posts: 1,036
    So ‘Popcorn In Bed’ has a ton of followers on YouTube, and they’re watching the Craig Bonds right now. Of course they had “heard” QOS was the weakest, but they both came out really liking it. They found the criticisms quite surprising. And then there’s hundreds of comments singing praise for QOS. Great to see!

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Yes, great to hear. The amount of casuals I've heard just trot out the received media line on QOS as if it's fact is laughable, so it's good to see genuine reactions from people who aren't swayed by the late 00s verdicts. I think this'll happen more and more as newer fans watch QOS without the baggage of the original critical kickings.
  • Posts: 15,218
    So ‘Popcorn In Bed’ has a ton of followers on YouTube, and they’re watching the Craig Bonds right now. Of course they had “heard” QOS was the weakest, but they both came out really liking it. They found the criticisms quite surprising. And then there’s hundreds of comments singing praise for QOS. Great to see!


    Gonna watch it when I can.

    Delenda Carthago: I want a series of graphic novels set between QOS and SF where Bond deals with Quantum.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    So ‘Popcorn In Bed’ has a ton of followers on YouTube, and they’re watching the Craig Bonds right now. Of course they had “heard” QOS was the weakest, but they both came out really liking it. They found the criticisms quite surprising. And then there’s hundreds of comments singing praise for QOS. Great to see!


    Gonna watch it when I can.

    Delenda Carthago: I want a series of graphic novels set between QOS and SF where Bond deals with Quantum.

    This was a refreshingly good review!

    Notice their reactions when Bond and Camille are inside of the burning hotel about to take themselves out. Very natural!

    They enjoyed the convos that made the dramatic scenes of QoS.

    And check out the discussions section! It's so packed with positive comments on the film! Keep folks engaged.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited June 2023 Posts: 1,036
    I do think the late 00’s critical “disappointment/mixed bag” feeling will eventually fade as new generations discover the film.

    Also would like to point out that these women got the plot and all its nuances immediately. Both the Vesper and water plots were recognized and understood. So when people say it’s confusing or doesn’t make sense I really do wonder what they’re talking about. There are FAR more convoluted Bond films out there.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,007
    I do think the late 00’s critical “disappointment/mixed bag” feeling will eventually fade as new generations discover the film.

    Also would like to point out that these women got the plot and all its nuances immediately. Both the Vesper and water plots were recognized and understood. So when people say it’s confusing or doesn’t make sense I really do wonder what they’re talking about. There are FAR more convoluted Bond films out there.

    Folks who say that either didn't give it a fair go in order to understand the plot or were too perplexed when they didn't see any space lasers or missiles being launched from carriers. I personally appreciated the twist of the villain's plot here, something way more geopolitical than I was expecting, rather than "bad guy wants to destroy the world or hold it for ransom".
  • Posts: 15,218
    Let's stop a moment here and appreciate the villain's scheme: it's not entirely original (Chinatown and Once Upon a Time in the West have similar ones, not to mention Jean de Floret), but it's entirely plausible and realistic as well as suitably large scale. And in a spy thriller/action movie, far more inventive as a MacGuffin than gold, petrol, diamonds, drugs or another doomsday device.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,356
    I think water is a refreshing break from the usual diamonds and oil.

    That being said, I think they could have done more with it, like some sort of water-based torture for Bond. Or even showing Camille taking the dams out.

    Still holding out for an Icebreaker-inspired torture scene someday.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Also worth remembering that there'd been some behind-the-scenes international concern in the mid-00s that control of water supplies could be a big geopolitical issue in future. 'We look at what people are afraid of and project that five minutes into the future', as MGW says. EON were evidently ahead of some of the audience with QOS. It's great to see new viewers catching on, though - and, no, I never had a problem understanding that was happening either.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 698
    Another plus for QOS is that it's the only Bond film that shows Felix operating outside of Bond's immediate influence. It's fun seeing him suffering through his job as a CIA agent, putting up with Beam and doing things he doesn't want to do while Bond is tearing things up on his own. Bond would be like Felix, begrudgingly taking orders from superiors he hates, if he wasn't more independent, and Felix would be like Bond if he only were a little less cynical. It's a good contrast.
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