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Would you accept a black Bond?

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  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    I'm not racist in the slightest, but I don't want a black Bond. Sorry.
  • timmertimmer
    edited August 2018 Posts: 4,622
    I think we will see a black Bond some day and possibly many other iterations of Bond but it won't happen until the character rights become public domain or scattered about, much like the Dracula and Sherlock Holmes characters.

    But while Eon continues to have a lockdown on the rights to a very successful franchise, it would be nuts to make any radical changes that upset core fans.
    And core fans do matter. The fan base is only so big. Not all regular moviegoees dutifully trot out to each new Bond release or buy Bond related product.
    Bond has it's own fan base, both very dedicated thru to varying levels of casual, but it's the core fanbase, the ones that spend the most money, and make the most noise, that marketers take notice of.
    Take care of the fans that are most invested and actually providing feedback pro and con, and the more casual fans will fall into place too.
    Marketers work very hard at gathering data.
    What they learn can generally be applied across the entire fan base.

    But if the Bond franchise as we know it ever wanes significantly in popularity, then all bets are off. The rights will become less valuable and radical new interpretations might be tried to generate fresh audience.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Jobo wrote:

    Depending on point of view one could say skin colour is just as "minor" a "tweak" as any of the other alterations.

    Bond is Anglo Saxon. His ancestry is white Northern European. The six Bond actors are of similar background, (I don't know about Lazenby but I assume white Australians have some European extraction). Idris Elba is of African Caribbean ancestry. The origins are different.

    As mentioned, none of the movie Bonds drove Fleming's car of choice: a Bentley; none had the cheek scar but these are cosmetic changes. The ancestry of Bond is not a cosmetic, superficial consideration. A black actor will change an established fact. We will have to come to terms with the reinvention that Bond's ancestry is *not* white Anglo Saxon. Bond's parents cannot be white if Bond is black. Ian Fleming told us Bond's father, Andrew Bond, was Scottish, born in Glencoe, Scotland. Bond's mother, Monique Delacroix, was Swiss. They were white Europeans.

    If Elba or another black actor become Bond then EON are dismissing Fleming's Bond. You can argue Roger Moore's Bond was nothing like Fleming's Bond but you can watch Moore's Bond and believe his parents were white European.

    If a black actor becomes Bond then I'd prefer if it's a full reboot of the character. The producers could say "this is a new 00 agent given the identity of James Bond." That would be a controversial route to go, but if we're told this is not Ian Fleming's James Bond, it's a new man taking on the name and persona of Bond, (perhaps the original Bond had retired or died), I think it's easier to accept a black actor as 007


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fleming actually ever made a remark concerning the race of Bond's parents. Yes, they were scottish and swiss, but do they have to be "white Anglo Saxons" specifically? Not really...

    Why would he need to specify that his parents were as white as himself? He probably didn t intend his books to be read by particularly daft readers.
    Quite. Fleming's meaning was quite clear.

  • jobojobo
    edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Jobo wrote:

    Depending on point of view one could say skin colour is just as "minor" a "tweak" as any of the other alterations.

    Bond is Anglo Saxon. His ancestry is white Northern European. The six Bond actors are of similar background, (I don't know about Lazenby but I assume white Australians have some European extraction). Idris Elba is of African Caribbean ancestry. The origins are different.

    As mentioned, none of the movie Bonds drove Fleming's car of choice: a Bentley; none had the cheek scar but these are cosmetic changes. The ancestry of Bond is not a cosmetic, superficial consideration. A black actor will change an established fact. We will have to come to terms with the reinvention that Bond's ancestry is *not* white Anglo Saxon. Bond's parents cannot be white if Bond is black. Ian Fleming told us Bond's father, Andrew Bond, was Scottish, born in Glencoe, Scotland. Bond's mother, Monique Delacroix, was Swiss. They were white Europeans.

    If Elba or another black actor become Bond then EON are dismissing Fleming's Bond. You can argue Roger Moore's Bond was nothing like Fleming's Bond but you can watch Moore's Bond and believe his parents were white European.

    If a black actor becomes Bond then I'd prefer if it's a full reboot of the character. The producers could say "this is a new 00 agent given the identity of James Bond." That would be a controversial route to go, but if we're told this is not Ian Fleming's James Bond, it's a new man taking on the name and persona of Bond, (perhaps the original Bond had retired or died), I think it's easier to accept a black actor as 007.




    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fleming actually ever made a remark concerning the race of Bond's parents. Yes, they were scottish and swiss, but do they have to be "white Anglo Saxons" specifically? Not really...

    Why would he need to specify that his parents were as white as himself? He probably didn t intend his books to be read by particularly daft readers.


    Come on! What is daft is to immediately assume if you are scottish or swiss you have to be white! Congratulations on that part...

    The point here is not weather Fleming intended Bond to be white or not. Nobody denies that. (Duh...)
    The point is that no, it doesn't effect Bond's heritage as one of scottish decent if he was black, as stated by one member previously. You don't have to rewrite his entire history to make him black.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Have you even read the Fleming books?
  • jobojobo
    edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Have you even read the Fleming books?

    I obviously have, which you would have known had you read my previous comments...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jobo wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Have you even read the Fleming books?

    I obviously have, which you would have known had you read my previous comments...

    And where did you get the feeling Bond may not have been white? Was it in LALD? Or perhaps YOLT?
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Have you even read the Fleming books?

    I obviously have, which you would have known had you read my previous comments...

    And where did you get the feeling Bond may not have been white? Was it in LALD? Or perhaps YOLT?


    You don't get the point at all, do you? Well... I am not surprised... ;)
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    Posts: 4,412
    But isn't James bond a fictional character? Aren't the stories and films just 'make believe'? Why do people think that casting an actor of a different race is such an affront to their fundamental beliefs? When I watch a Bond film, I know I'm watching a filmed story with actors. I don't actually think Daniel Craig is called James Bond.

    It's art. A film is an artistic expression of a story. It's less about the form itself and how the story is told, opposed to the themes and ideas that interest me. If Bond had been played by an ethnic actor in the Craig films it wouldn't have impacted the ideas and issues explored. Nor would the actual execution have differed

    Any talk of the 'franchise' and preserving the way the series has always been is just subtle dog-whistle racism.

    Talk of keeping Bond white boils down to people associating the character to their ethnonationalist views. Bond is a symbol of Britain and is, therefore, white. If you attack the sanctity of the character's skin colour, you encroach on people's national identity.

    The discussion as to whether a black actor plays James Bond is a superficial debate about a much bigger issue.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Surely the question is more about why should James Bond be black rather than why he shouldn't be black.

    Mr. Bond was envisaged and imagined as a white man by his creator, and he has been white for the past 65 years.

    Nobody has given a valid or convincing reason why he should be anything other than what he was originally intended to be. His being white isn't infringing on minority rights in any way shape or form as far as I can tell. So his complexion and skin tone shouldn't be seen as an affront to minority sensibilities.

    Will a black actor necessarily be better at playing James Bond? Do they bring something so immeasurably amazing to the role that they must be cast in lieu of a white man? I don't see any evidence of that - yet. So this is all rather pointless imho.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,359
    Well said @bondjames.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Thanks @Murdock.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Excellent post @bondjames, couldn't agree more.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    Absolutely right, @bondjames

    I always found the dismissal of such a preference for Bond to stay white as racist to be highly lazy and ignorant.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Was watching LALD yesterday and I was reminded that McCartney's theme song had some reggae influence to it, which in turn reminded me that Bob Marley, for all intents and purposes a black man is half white and more specifically half Scottish.

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I don't know why I'm surprised this thread has been revived. But for me it is no issue at all. I'm happy with Bond being black or any other ethnicity that fits with him being British. I guess him being British (not the actor, the character) in the films is key for me. It certainly was at the core of the novels.

    For what it's worth, I'd have enjoyed Idris very much as Bond; yes, I do think so. But he is too old for the role now. Skin color has no bearing on who plays Bond in the films for me.
  • Benjamin_Weekly69Benjamin_Weekly69 London
    edited August 2018 Posts: 727
    "They can take liberties with the Fleming source material as freely as they want. But Lord help them if they change the complexity of Bond's parents. Who are very important in the novels by the way. They are featured attractions and their ethnicity is particularly important in every book.."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jobo wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Have you even read the Fleming books?

    I obviously have, which you would have known had you read my previous comments...

    And where did you get the feeling Bond may not have been white? Was it in LALD? Or perhaps YOLT?


    You don't get the point at all, do you? Well... I am not surprised... ;)

    I know you went back and edited your initial post, the way you often do.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Benjamin_Weekly69 wrote: »
    "They can take liberties with the Fleming source material as freely as they want. But Lord help them if they change the complexity of Bond's parents. Who are very important in the novels by the way. They are featured attractions and their ethnicity is particularly important in every book.."


    Good one! ;))
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited August 2018 Posts: 3,333
    I’ve made no secret that I’m against this act of cultural appropriation. Bond has had over 50 incredible successful years in the movies of being a mix of Caucasian European heritage, longer if we include the books, so to suddenly shift it to a person of African heritage would be just another example of cultural appropriation. The movies, though played by different actors over the years, have always maintained the image and illusion that it was the same man with the same prefix that we were watching. This has been helped, in no small part, by each of the actors baring a credible similarity to each other. The spell, magic, whatever term you want to use, would be broken if it were to suddenly change.

    As others have asked the same question, why does a change of ethnicity immediately equate to a black actor playing Bond, so I’ll ask the question again? Why not an Indian or a Chinese actor, or even a person of Turkish persuasion? Are these people not British with a longstanding presence in our community as well? If we’re going to open the door to changing Bond’s ethnicity then I want to see it open to all men of colour, not just actors that have an African ancestoral background that are good at self-promotion.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    It doesn't matter. Just keep him British. And that can be any color. :)
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,232
    bondsum wrote: »
    I’ve made no secret that I’m against this act of cultural appropriation. Bond has had over 50 incredible successful years in the movies of being a mix of Caucasian European heritage, longer if we include the books, so to suddenly shift it to a person of African heritage would be just another example of cultural appropriation. The movies, though played by different actors over the years, have always maintained the image and illusion that it was the same man with the same prefix that we were watching. This has been helped, in no small part, by each of the actors baring a credible similarity to each other. The spell, magic, whatever term you want to use, would be broken if it were to suddenly change.

    As others have asked the same question, why does a change of ethnicity immediately equate to a black actor playing Bond, so I’ll ask the question again? Why not an Indian or a Chinese actor, or even a person of Turkish persuasion? Are these people not British with a longstanding presence in our community as well? If we’re going to open the door to changing Bond’s ethnicity then I want to see it open to all men of colour, not just actors that have an African ancestoral background that are good at self-promotion.

    And many actors of Turkish or Jewish origins, heck, some Asians as well, could easily pass as white. They'd talk of the first Muslim or Jewish Bond, but otherwise the character on the screen would be no different.

    Although I understand a Muslim Bond would create all sorts of controversies, but not from the fans.
  • fanbond123fanbond123
    edited August 2018 Posts: 1,661
    The huge box office success of Black Panther may convince EON to 'risk' a black actor. Daniel Craig was a 'risk' - arguably not the tall, dark and handsome look we associate with Bond, an actor not known for playing heroes - no-one knew if he would be accepted by the mainstream audience. The risk paid off. The majority of fans accepted him in the role.

    Black Panther has grossed 1.3 billion worldwide. If EON and MGM believe there is untapped box office potential in casting a black actor as Bond, I think they'll do it. It's similar to what's happened with Doctor Who. The new Doctor is a woman, actress Jodie Whittaker. First time a woman has been cast in the role.

    I think you can argue Doctor Who is the British tv equivalent of James Bond. It's been running since 1963, the role gets recast, and the show maintains a loyal fanbase. Bond and the Doctor are two icons of British 20th century pop culture. If the female Doctor is a success then a black James Bond can be a success?

    I'm sure some Doctor Who fans will hate the new female Doctor and will never accept it, the same is likely to be true if Bond becomes black, but I'm guessing the larger fanbase won't care that much. Bond, like Doctor Who, has to move with the times. I'm not a huge fan of a female Doctor nor a black Bond, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending/wishing things remain the same is counter-productive. Life moves on. You just gotta accept it. ;)

  • pking_3pking_3 Punting under the Bridge of Sighs
    Posts: 33
    If life moved on and a black (or any non-white-male actor) was cast...I'd try it out as a fan. My enjoyment of Bond doesn't hinge primarily on Fleming's archetype being preserved. That said, I'd be skeptical, and it would impinge my hopes and expectations.

    In other words, I do think an Elba Bond flick could work--but I'd have to forego what I know about the original character and not try to imagine why this edition of Bond got excited by the unusual exoticness of black women in Fleming's Live and Let Die, and so on.

    Still...I think most of the "support" for such casting choices come from those who want to be noticed for their "enlightenment" (heh) or if you find that word choice problematic, non-racism. A clue is if you engage in a "why?" conversation and discover that they want to race to characterize those who want CaucasiBond as some deviation of a "Nazi" etc.

    Instead of pondering the laziness and transparency of targeting characters for redefinition following a political agenda...meaning if you want to see a Bond (or Superhero, or martial arts, or zombie, or golf, or romcom) story with a (insert-your-pet-demographic-here) lead...I get it. So go do that...but don't prefer changing James Bond instead of building any new and more authentic story/character? Black Panther works well because he was created as T'Challa, and is not a redefinition of Steve Rogers.


  • fanbond123fanbond123
    edited August 2018 Posts: 1,661
    Outspoken British journalist/annoying reality tv personality Katie Hopkins gives her opinion on Idris Elba as Bond:


    "Many people love you, almost more than you do yourself."

    Are you suggesting much of Elba's desire to play Bond is a manifestation of some deep rooted narcissism? He craves the attention? Surely not! :P



  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    She's not wrong.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    The huge box office success of Black Panther may convince EON to 'risk' a black actor. Daniel Craig was a 'risk' - arguably not the tall, dark and handsome look we associate with Bond, an actor not known for playing heroes - no-one knew if he would be accepted by the mainstream audience. The risk paid off. The majority of fans accepted him in the role.

    Black Panther has grossed 1.3 billion worldwide. If EON and MGM believe there is untapped box office potential in casting a black actor as Bond, I think they'll do it. It's similar to what's happened with Doctor Who. The new Doctor is a woman, actress Jodie Whittaker. First time a woman has been cast in the role.

    I think you can argue Doctor Who is the British tv equivalent of James Bond. It's been running since 1963, the role gets recast, and the show maintains a loyal fanbase. Bond and the Doctor are two icons of British 20th century pop culture. If the female Doctor is a success then a black James Bond can be a success?

    I'm sure some Doctor Who fans will hate the new female Doctor and will never accept it, the same is likely to be true if Bond becomes black, but I'm guessing the larger fanbase won't care that much. Bond, like Doctor Who, has to move with the times. I'm not a huge fan of a female Doctor nor a black Bond, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending/wishing things remain the same is counter-productive. Life moves on. You just gotta accept it. ;)


    Yes, Bond changes with time. One just has to accept that. Most people would agree that a completely faitful adaptation of Moonraker or LALD would be completely unthinkable today. Maybe one small group of hard core fans would appreciate it (me included), but the large majority would say "this is not Bond! Where are the elaborate action scenes, the cars, the gadgets, the jokes (etc)"? "No formula"?? By and large the franchise has left Fleming's original creation behind long ago. And lets face it, wether you like it or not, this is one of the main reasons the franchise still exists.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Outspoken British journalist/annoying reality tv personality Katie Hopkins gives her opinion on Idris Elba as Bond:


    "Many people love you, almost more than you do yourself."

    Are you suggesting much of Elba's desire to play Bond is a manifestation of some deep rooted narcissism? He craves the attention? Surely not! :P



    You forgot to put vile and downright nasty, annoying doesn't quite cut it with Hopkins, possibly not a good example to quote unless of course you swing in her direction that is.

    some deep rooted narcissism, craves the attention.

    She could be describing herself with that comment.
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    edited August 2018 Posts: 4,412
    Shardlake wrote: »
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    Outspoken British journalist/annoying reality tv personality Katie Hopkins gives her opinion on Idris Elba as Bond:


    "Many people love you, almost more than you do yourself."

    Are you suggesting much of Elba's desire to play Bond is a manifestation of some deep rooted narcissism? He craves the attention? Surely not! :P



    You forgot to put vile and downright nasty, annoying doesn't quite cut it with Hopkins, possibly not a good example to quote unless of course you swing in her direction that is.

    some deep rooted narcissism, craves the attention.

    She could be describing herself with that comment.

    I'm not a snowflake liberal, but if people are going to actively quote someone as repugnant as Katie Hopkins on this forum, then I'll happily quit and not come back.

    Her views and opinions are harmful and really shouldn't be endorsed.

    If you do agree with her political philosophy, then I don't condemn you. But I don't think a James Bond forum is an appropriate place to be putting her videos to support your opinion. It's quite literally the wrong forum.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,821
    Wasn't it that Hopkins woman who was on that TV show, talking about judging children by their birth names, like names with geographical connections, while she herself has a kid called India?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Hopkins is racist and repugnant; vile. Why put her forth as anything worth quoting on here? Honestly.

    I understand wanting Bond to be British. But sure, any skin color is fine with me.
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