Would you accept a black Bond?

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  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,811
    Racism is prejudice plus power. You might be an intolerant person and part of a minority group but it'll be difficult to truly embed racist values if you're already a disenfranchised minority group.
    That modern disclaimer wrongly excuses and facilitates racism.

    A member of a disenfranchised minority isn't exempt from lashing out in racism. And it's actually still not acceptable or justified to be racist in that case.
  • Posts: 15,125
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.
  • Posts: 15,125
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.

    Late in their tenure. Not starting it.
  • Posts: 16,169
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.

    Late in their tenure. Not starting it.

    True. In addition, at the pace Eon is going, it could be the better part of a decade before the first post Craig Bond gets underway.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    If they decide to cast a black actor, regardless of whether they are the most suitable or not (as they did when deciding Dr Who would be a woman), then that in itself is some kind of inverted racism.

    The best person for the job will never be black, because there simply aren't enough black actors to compete with the plethora of suitable white candidates.

    That isn't racism, that's the truth of the matter. Everyone bangs on about Idris Elba, but I bet none of those who are gasping for him to be Bond actually went to see his last two movies at the cinema.


    Lol.

    Considering black actors = racist

    Utterly segregating black actors from a role = not racism

    Me thinks you've misread the definition, sir.

    Misread the definition of what?
  • Posts: 15,125
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.

    Late in their tenure. Not starting it.

    True. In addition, at the pace Eon is going, it could be the better part of a decade before the first post Craig Bond gets underway.

    One of the reasons why I suspect the next Bond actor will be someone nobody has heard of now.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.

    Late in their tenure. Not starting it.

    True. In addition, at the pace Eon is going, it could be the better part of a decade before the first post Craig Bond gets underway.

    One of the reasons why I suspect the next Bond actor will be someone nobody has heard of now.


    Maybe it's me? ;)
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Had a quick look at it. There are so many wrong things with it: "only" seven years difference between Craig's age when cast and Elba's age (a detail, right?), false equivalence with Connery's age when he did NSNA...
    He's certainly older than is ideal for a new Bond, but they have a point about a 50+ year actor playing the part as well.

    That’s was a very aggravating article to read
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 1,661
    Just seen Elba in Bastille Day. I agree with Anthony Horowitz - Elba is too street to be Bond. Actually I'd be more negative than that - I think he'd be too thuggish. Based on his performance in Bastille Day, I don't think he has the class to pull off Bond. Sure, you might argue Craig's Bond isn't that classy but Elba wouldn't be any different.

    I also didn't rate his acting that highly. Nothing to rave about. I'll be happy to mention any scene from the film just to prove I have seen it (just in case anyone thinks I havent't seen the film!).

    I think he'd be an awful Bond, as bad as Cavill. If he can pull of some classy acting, actually convince us he'd a sophisticated spy, who knows. He did play Nelson Mandela so that proves he's got acting range, but this guy is not as charming as Connery, or Moore or Brosnan. Sorry, he's too ordinary in acting style. Fair enough, he was playing an American CIA type character but I just don't get the appeal of the guy. He's like a straight to video action hero type of guy. The appeal of Elba is like the appeal of Donald Trump - you either get it or you don't. And I don't. Being as brutally honest as I can be - you need a classier actor to be Bond (accepting that Craig doesn't muster much class, but hey it's all personal opinions!) I guess the classy Bond ended with Brosnan and it's never coming back. I'm not sure Barbara Broccoli really 'gets' James Bond but that's a debate for another thread!

    I think all the fuss about Elba being the man to take over is a load of hot air! Perhaps people will forget about him and find some other Bond hopeful to get obsessed about. :P



  • Posts: 2,491
    I don't like that there are so many fans that are against Elba as Bond being so vocal.

    In my mind there's absolutely 0 chance that Elba will be the next Bond. This is just a silly rumour.

    Just google "(actor name) wants to be new Bond" and you'll find tons of those articles. And not one stupid rumour got the same exposure this one got.

    Why? Cause people knew they were just that. Silly rumours.

    But now....people give this massive attention. And massive attention brings casual people that will say "eh, don't care, why not" . And more people saying "eh, why not" will bring attention to Broccoli who'll think "hey, at least there are some people fine with the idea of a black Bond.

    And maybe the 8th Bond or something in the future will be black.

    Also...LMFAO, all those 'if you don't like Elba you're racist" arguments. That's like the dumbest argument you can make.

    "I don't think Tom Cruise should be Bond" - Eh, fine I get you.

    "I don't think Michael Caine should be Bond" - Yeah, makes sense I guess.

    "I don't think Idris Elba should be Bond" - WTF YOU MUST BE RACIST THAT'S THE ONLY THING I SEE FROM THIS ARGUMENT YOU ARE CLEARLY BIGOT !!!!!!!!!

    The same people that like Elba to be Bond would say "hell no" to the idea of...idk, let's say the next Batman to be portrayed by an actor with down syndrome. Or a guy with long hair. Or a person in a wheel chair. Or a an actor with speech impediment.

    Not wanting someone of a certain group to play something he's not doesn't mean you hate what he is.

    I don't want Bond to be played by a guy that's 150 cm tall, but that doesn't mean that I hate short people. It means that Bond is not short.

    There's absolutely 0 arguments you can make for Bond being portrayed by a black person, and any discussion about this is wrong. Some things are not for discussion. Stop paying attention to the rumours.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    3S1GT0f.jpg
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    =))
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,811
    Craig Bond: "I never laughed."
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    For me it's a no. Not a black Bond (the only choice for many) or an Asian Bond or Hispanic/Latino whatever ethnic background you care to mention Bond. I think if a black Bond was cast it would only be to pander to a certain section of society (probably ones that aren't that keen on watching Bond anyway!), I would have to weigh up how I felt at the time, but would probably not go see it.
    And I have to say that I just don't see Elba as Bond at all, and am slightly non-plussed when I read that people think he would make a good Bond. Oh well, each to their own.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    dragonsky wrote: »
    I don't like that there are so many fans that are against Elba as Bond being so vocal.

    In my mind there's absolutely 0 chance that Elba will be the next Bond. This is just a silly rumour.

    Just google "(actor name) wants to be new Bond" and you'll find tons of those articles. And not one stupid rumour got the same exposure this one got.

    Why? Cause people knew they were just that. Silly rumours.

    But now....people give this massive attention. And massive attention brings casual people that will say "eh, don't care, why not" . And more people saying "eh, why not" will bring attention to Broccoli who'll think "hey, at least there are some people fine with the idea of a black Bond.

    And maybe the 8th Bond or something in the future will be black.

    Also...LMFAO, all those 'if you don't like Elba you're racist" arguments. That's like the dumbest argument you can make.

    "I don't think Tom Cruise should be Bond" - Eh, fine I get you.

    "I don't think Michael Caine should be Bond" - Yeah, makes sense I guess.

    "I don't think Idris Elba should be Bond" - WTF YOU MUST BE RACIST THAT'S THE ONLY THING I SEE FROM THIS ARGUMENT YOU ARE CLEARLY BIGOT !!!!!!!!!

    The same people that like Elba to be Bond would say "hell no" to the idea of...idk, let's say the next Batman to be portrayed by an actor with down syndrome. Or a guy with long hair. Or a person in a wheel chair. Or a an actor with speech impediment.

    Not wanting someone of a certain group to play something he's not doesn't mean you hate what he is.

    I don't want Bond to be played by a guy that's 150 cm tall, but that doesn't mean that I hate short people. It means that Bond is not short.

    There's absolutely 0 arguments you can make for Bond being portrayed by a black person, and any discussion about this is wrong. Some things are not for discussion. Stop paying attention to the rumours.

    "Hear, Hear"
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 11,425
    I suppose there is a precedent at Eon in changing the race of established characters.

    640?cb=20171023014229
    640?cb=20161208163535

    I can't really see the issue if both Moneypenny and Felix were black in Bond becoming black.

    I'm not saying the next Bond actor should be black, but ethnic actors shouldn't be discounted from the conversation merely because their skin colour is different from the other guys who played the role.

    I think the general assumption from people is that Idris is the right guy for the part. Obviously, everything is subjective but there is general consensus that if there is going to be an ethnic actor playing the part, there is a perfect option awaiting.
    doubleoego wrote: »
    You do realise it's not only white people that go to Eton. My brother and cousin (both black) went to Harrow school and whereas my brother went to South Africa for 6th form/college, my cousin went to Eton. Yes, such educational institutions are predominantly white but they're not exclusively white.

    Thank you for proving my point and disproving Katie Hopkins.

    We live in a modern Britain where class and wealth are not defined by the colour of your skin. If we are like Katie Hopkins and believe that we need to hold on to old ideas of Britain as an imperialistic and fundamentally white power, then we're destined to be as toxic as she is.

    Agree with everything you've said above. And specifically the point about this not being a campaign to have a black Bond for the sake of it, but rather that the casting should be about the best actor for the role, regardless of race.

    The reason a lot of people have bigged up Elba is not for the sake of having a black actor but because when you consider him in the role a lot of people feel it would have been a good fit. He's too old now though and it will never happen.

    The comment from Anthony Horrowtitz repeated above about Elba being 'too street' is garbage. Fleming doubtless made similarly snobbish comments about Connery, who was a tough working class Scot - pretty much the opposite of Fleming's character on the page. Then Fleming saw Connery on screen, discovered women thought he was hot stuff and saw the money starting to flow into his bank account. Any one who thinks Elba doesn't have the gravitas should watch him in the Wire.

    Any way, the role brings with it a lot of gravitas - a decent actor rise to the challenge and fleshes out the role as required. And it's not as if casting a black Bond would be reinventing the literary character for the first time. When EON cast Connery in 1962 they did exactly the same thing. And it changed the character to such an extent that Fleming felt he had to give the literary character a Scottish ancestry. So those banging on about the literary character need to grow up and accept film Bond has been calling the shots on that front for decades.


  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    mattjoes wrote: »
    3S1GT0f.jpg

    Lol this is great. :))
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, a good joke.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 1,661
    Idris Elba played Nelson Mandela and got good review for it. Let's imagine the previous Bond actors playing Nelson Mandela. It wouldn't work, it would be silly. Sean Connery is Nelson Mandela? LOL

    If a white actor shouldn't play a black person, why should a black actor play a white person? Okay, the natural reply is "Nelson Mandela was a real person, Bond isn't. Bond is make-believe so he can look and behave how the writers/producers/directors see fit. If a modern Bond is an Idris Elba type of Bond then that's how it is."

    Okay, you could argue there is some logic in that counter-argument, but the natural response to that point of view is: "why change Bond? You're just changing Bond, his appearance, his cultural origin, his middle to upper class persona, to suit some politically correct agenda."

    It's what happened with Doctor Who. I saw the new showrunner of Doctor Who saying in an interview: "it was time for a female Doctor. Jodie Whittaker was the only choice."

    He could have been more honest (!) and said "the show's rating have declined under the last actor, Peter Capaldi, and if they don't improve the BBC might cancel the show. A woman Doctor is a gimmick to attract more attention to the show and hopefully improve the ratings. Plus, we'd like to pull in more female viewers."

    My guess is that's the real reason they've cast a woman as the new Doctor.

    But back to Elba... imagine he got the part. My guess is he will play it similar-ish to Daniel Craig's Bond? I could be wrong, it's just my guess. Based on his performance in Bastille Day he's not going to be a sophisticated Bond. You can argue Craig isn't a sophisticated type Bond (the anti-Craig brigade would think so and provide evidence, the pro-Craig lot would disagree) but it's reasonable to say Craig's Bond isn't quite as smooth as Connery/Moore or Brosnan's Bond. People accept Craig is a blunter, semi-realistic Bourne-ish type Bond. My prediction is Elba would channel some of Craig's blunt Bond into his performance. You can see the blunt style in his Bastille Day performance. Elba is not a Connery or Moore suave kinda actor. They don't exist anymore and times have moved on. My guess is the suave Bond is regarded as old fashioned in the 21st century internet, social media era. I dunno, post-Brosnan perhaps George Clooney was the last actor to give off the kind of old school suave vibe but he's American so he was never in the race for Bond.

    Elba is going to play to his strengths and it's going to be a bit more of a street type Bond. The producers wouldn't try to force him to be like Connery or Moore. They didn't do that with Craig so it's reasonable to assume Elba or another black actor won't play Bond like Cubby's Bond - white, semi-posh, sophisticated hero. The blunt Bond, brought in by Craig, is here to stay and it will be reshaped by the next actor and I can't see the original film version of Bond ever returning. The proof is the clamour for Elba as Bond. There's the proof that people don't want a Sean Connery/Roger Moore or other previous actor type Bond. They want someone more relatable or blunt or 'street'. They want their ethnicity represented in the Bond franchise.

    Anthony Horowitz had to apologize for calling Elba too 'street' for Bond but I think he was 100 percent correct in his analysis. He caved in under the weight of social media. He didn't want to come over as racist so he had to say sorry, but I don't believe it is racist to say Elba is too 'street' for Bond when it seems patently obvious Elba does not embody the white Fleming type Bond nor the Cubby Broccoli/Saltzman Bond. It's doubtful another black actor does because the whole concept of Bond (be it Fleming or C Broccoli's Bond) is kind of outdated in the 21st century. After DAD B Brococli and Wilson felt they had to change Bond to keep up with the Bourne franchise and tv's Jack Bauer. When an actor is mentioned to play Bond and you scan the comments section for the reaction, people aren't wanting a Connery or Moore or other previous Bond, they're suggesting their own reinvented version of Bond - hence the appeal of Idris Elba or whoever else is popular at the time. Tom Hardy should be Bond, some say! Why? Cos he's... er famous, that's why.

    See what I mean, we all do this. We take the concept of Bond and find some popular guy we like and just go "he should be Bond!" Okay, people here don't do that much but the rest of the internet is full of "I want my popular actor to be Bond!" comments. I doubt there is any historical context, any great understanding of who the cinematic James Bond is, it's just "I want random hot actor to play Bond cos he was good on that tv show or film." My guess is the interest or demand for a black actor is no different.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 11,425
    I call BS - again - on this 'too street' line.

    Connery was too street as well. Terence Young took him under his wing and turned him into screen Bond. It's called directing, costume, make up, lighting, script. Movie making in other words.

    Look at Richard Burton - a working class Welsh lad who grew up giving it to the local girls behind the pub - but that's not what came across on screen.

    Elba won't be Bond so this is all completely moot, but until each actor actually gets to 'wear the tux' and 'be Bond' you can't ever really tell how good they will be.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I call BS - again - on this 'too street' line.

    Connery was too street as well. Terence Young took him under his wing and turned him into screen Bond. It's called directing, costume, make up, lighting, script. Movie making in other words.

    Look at Richard Burton - a working class Welsh lad who grew up giving it to the local girls behind the pub - but that's not what came across on screen.

    Elba won't be Bond so this is all completely moot, but until each actor actually gets to 'wear the tux' and 'be Bond' you can't ever really tell how good they will be.
    I agree with you. Elba has definitely shown me that he can do smooth, suave and relatively refined. Not in Bastille Day perhaps, but that wasn't what Sean Briar was about. As you wrote, both Connery and Burton cleaned up nicely too under the right direction.

    Playing Bond is a privilege (due to the fame, fortune and recognition) and also a burden (due to the typecasting that can occur). Either way, it's a career defining role. Each actor who has had this opportunity has stepped up and delivered and I expect Bond #007 to do the same, no matter whether he's black, white, or some other ethnicity.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 4,409
    There’s a pretty humorous take on the matter in the Guardian
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2018/aug/16/far-righters-james-bond-not-on-your-team-idris-elba

    Essentially the point seems to be that the outry over a ‘black Bond’ stems from far-righters seeing Bond as their ‘own’ and wanting to protect it.

    I think that is the essence of the point. James Bond is a pretend person. Even when he’s played by a white man, you are still watching an actor playing a pretend person. There isn't really anything to 'protect', it's fictional and if the producers hire a black actor, it's because he was right actor to play a fictional character.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    Getafix wrote: »
    I suppose there is a precedent at Eon in changing the race of established characters.

    640?cb=20171023014229
    640?cb=20161208163535

    I can't really see the issue if both Moneypenny and Felix were black in Bond becoming black.

    I'm not saying the next Bond actor should be black, but ethnic actors shouldn't be discounted from the conversation merely because their skin colour is different from the other guys who played the role.

    I think the general assumption from people is that Idris is the right guy for the part. Obviously, everything is subjective but there is general consensus that if there is going to be an ethnic actor playing the part, there is a perfect option awaiting.
    doubleoego wrote: »
    You do realise it's not only white people that go to Eton. My brother and cousin (both black) went to Harrow school and whereas my brother went to South Africa for 6th form/college, my cousin went to Eton. Yes, such educational institutions are predominantly white but they're not exclusively white.

    Thank you for proving my point and disproving Katie Hopkins.

    We live in a modern Britain where class and wealth are not defined by the colour of your skin. If we are like Katie Hopkins and believe that we need to hold on to old ideas of Britain as an imperialistic and fundamentally white power, then we're destined to be as toxic as she is.

    Agree with everything you've said above. And specifically the point about this not being a campaign to have a black Bond for the sake of it, but rather that the casting should be about the best actor for the role, regardless of race.

    The reason a lot of people have bigged up Elba is not for the sake of having a black actor but because when you consider him in the role a lot of people feel it would have been a good fit. He's too old now though and it will never happen.

    The comment from Anthony Horrowtitz repeated above about Elba being 'too street' is garbage. Fleming doubtless made similarly snobbish comments about Connery, who was a tough working class Scot - pretty much the opposite of Fleming's character on the page. Then Fleming saw Connery on screen, discovered women thought he was hot stuff and saw the money starting to flow into his bank account. Any one who thinks Elba doesn't have the gravitas should watch him in the Wire.

    Any way, the role brings with it a lot of gravitas - a decent actor rise to the challenge and fleshes out the role as required. And it's not as if casting a black Bond would be reinventing the literary character for the first time. When EON cast Connery in 1962 they did exactly the same thing. And it changed the character to such an extent that Fleming felt he had to give the literary character a Scottish ancestry. So those banging on about the literary character need to grow up and accept film Bond has been calling the shots on that front for decades.



    That is also a very good point. The fact that Fleming actually changed Bond's ancestry because of Connery speaks volumes. He was more than willing to change and adapt the character himself.

    Heck, I would even believe that if Fleming was alive today writing on his 70th something Bond novel, he would probably be willing to implement some seriously drastic changes to shake up the Bond universe. Even he would accept that the character has to adapt with modern society.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 4,617
    Our culture is all over the place at the moment re the role of race and ethnicity within acting. See below and imagine the outcry from the Black community if, for example, Rick Astley was cast in a musical version of the life of Nelson Mandela. In some ways, it seems to be a "one way street".......

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/aug/04/beverley-knight-defends-her-casting-as-emmeline-pankhurst
  • Posts: 4,409
    patb wrote: »
    Our culture is all over the place at the moment re the role of race and ethnicity within acting. See below and imagine the outcry from the Black community if, for example, Rick Astley was cast in a musical version of the life of Nelson Mandela. In some ways, it seems to be a "one way street".......

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/aug/04/beverley-knight-defends-her-casting-as-emmeline-pankhurst

    And your point is?

    A historically oppressed minority finally get opportunities and white people start moaning. What's new?
  • Posts: 727
    I will never get comparing a real person to a fictonal character. Are these 'arguments' made in good faith?

    Also, why would anyone base Elba's theoretical performance as Bond on a single performance in Bastille day? Seems like a weird box to put your rationale around.

    Elba has already been through this. There was outrage back in 10 when he was cast as a Norse God.

    But how can he play a Norse God? Isn't he too street to pull off an ancient Noble God who is as white as they come? He proved them all wrong of course.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    No. I also wouldn't want male Danger Girls, a white Shaft, a white Blade
    patb wrote: »
    Our culture is all over the place at the moment re the role of race and ethnicity within acting. See below and imagine the outcry from the Black community if, for example, Rick Astley was cast in a musical version of the life of Nelson Mandela. In some ways, it seems to be a "one way street".......

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/aug/04/beverley-knight-defends-her-casting-as-emmeline-pankhurst

    And your point is?

    A historically oppressed minority finally get opportunities and white people start moaning. What's new?

    The new cologne, Eu de Double Standard.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Thinking about it, a black Doctor in Dr Who would have made more sense than a female one. An alien changing colour when "regenerating" is overall a smaller change than a complete sex change. And like I said a Black Jason Bourne would work too, given that the name itself is a pseudonym and could be taken by another agent.
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