"Did i overcomplicate the plot ?" - Skyfall Appreciation & Discussion

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  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    barryt007 wrote: »
    This comment was moved from a SP thread,i don't want to de-rail it so I will put it in here,it's about a conversation re liking or disliking Silva as a villain :

    I like him actually,so camp.
    And I love the moment he points the helicopter to shoot out Bond's beloved DB5,i was shocked when I first saw that,but you can tell by Silva's face he knew exactly what that car meant to Bond.

    And then to see CraigBond pause and look up,and the brief anger and disbelief on his face is brilliant.

    Finally,add the brilliant score,specially for that moment,and its a perfect Bondian scene to me.

    Well, other than Silva being 'camp', your thoughts mirror mine.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    This comment was moved from a SP thread,i don't want to de-rail it so I will put it in here,it's about a conversation re liking or disliking Silva as a villain :

    I like him actually,so camp.
    And I love the moment he points the helicopter to shoot out Bond's beloved DB5,i was shocked when I first saw that,but you can tell by Silva's face he knew exactly what that car meant to Bond.

    And then to see CraigBond pause and look up,and the brief anger and disbelief on his face is brilliant.

    Finally,add the brilliant score,specially for that moment,and its a perfect Bondian scene to me.

    Well, other than Silva being 'camp', your thoughts mirror mine.

    Yes he is an unusual character,some see him as camp,others don't,which to me signifies how well Javier Bardem played him .

    I only see him as camp because of the way he treated Bond on the island (although I know he was trying to get a rise out of him) and his dialogue and manner/persona in general.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Flamboyant comes to mind. Silva thinks he's part of the stage show and eats the scenery in response.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Yeah, flamboyant or even theatrical, is how I see Silva. As Bond put it: "Always got to make an entrance."
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    The problem with SP is somehow some think it's a back to basis Bond film and more traditional.

    That was what it should have been, the sign off of SF was betrayed with SP.

    We got Bond being handed a new mission by his new Boss, what was expected with the next film was a Bond film where Bond goes on a mission no more personal baggage we'd done that with SF and that was as far as it should have gone.

    Though instead BB was hungry to get her Billion dollar boy back after his success with SF and Mendes was never coming back to make a traditional film.

    Yes the window dressing is there, the gadgets, the car and also introducing Bond most famous adversary ESB and his organisation but no Sammy had to make it all psychological and personal once again and actually thought the idea of having Ernst be Bond's childhood nemesis was going to be exciting. I believe he referred to this element in an Empire interview as a depth charge.

    To have this iconic character that had been made a mockery and lampooned by the Austin Powers series return. In the same way that CR had reinvented Bond for a new age is exactly what should have been done with the return of ESB and not riffing on a plot point from that very franchise to do it.

    No wonder the film is looked at as a mockery in some circles, all the hard work done by CR and for me QOS and even SF to be undone in the space of one film, I doubt I'll ever forgive it.

    We'll see if I'm still going on about it in 2020 like @Getafix still continues to assassinate Skyfall after 5 years.

    I'd hope not, it's still pretty fresh at the moment but I hope I will have let it go by then, that being said this was an era I was most happy with and this one film has left a massive stain all over it, it can't be unseen and the damage done can't really be undone.

  • Posts: 4,603
    Great post and a very well made point re the end point of SF.

    No matter what you think of it, everyone must acknowledge that it ended with a clean slate and no loose ends. The scriptwriters for the following movie had all the options open with a support team in place and Bond's emotional ghosts bannished.

    "With pleasure, M, with pleasure."

    I really upbeat way to end the movie. Lets move on and look forward to future adventures. Given that, its all the more unbelievable that they decided to go back instead of forward.

    "I doubt I'll ever forgive it."

    I won't.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    The only way we can truly move forward is when the Craig era ends imho. They can attempt to ignore SP for B25, although I doubt they will. Even in the off-chance that they do however, the baggage and shadow will follow the actor, due to the direct continuity timeline of his tenure. Consequently, it's most likely that those who liked (or can tolerate) the last film will probably enjoy the next entry, and those who didn't (like myself) will perhaps have to wait for B26 to really get passionate about things again. Having said that, I'm sure B25 will be an improvement of sorts for many of us.

    I've always felt that SF should have been a closure to the Craig era. It truly seemed like the end of reboots and the start of something new. I sincerely hope they end B25 on a similar note.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The problem with SP is somehow some think it's a back to basis Bond film and more traditional.

    That was what it should have been, the sign off of SF was betrayed with SP.

    We got Bond being handed a new mission by his new Boss, what was expected with the next film was a Bond film where Bond goes on a mission no more personal baggage we'd done that with SF and that was as far as it should have gone.

    Though instead BB was hungry to get her Billion dollar boy back after his success with SF and Mendes was never coming back to make a traditional film.

    Yes the window dressing is there, the gadgets, the car and also introducing Bond most famous adversary ESB and his organisation but no Sammy had to make it all psychological and personal once again and actually thought the idea of having Ernst be Bond's childhood nemesis was going to be exciting. I believe he referred to this element in an Empire interview as a depth charge.

    To have this iconic character that had been made a mockery and lampooned by the Austin Powers series return. In the same way that CR had reinvented Bond for a new age is exactly what should have been done with the return of ESB and not riffing on a plot point from that very franchise to do it.

    No wonder the film is looked at as a mockery in some circles, all the hard work done by CR and for me QOS and even SF to be undone in the space of one film, I doubt I'll ever forgive it.

    We'll see if I'm still going on about it in 2020 like @Getafix still continues to assassinate Skyfall after 5 years.

    I'd hope not, it's still pretty fresh at the moment but I hope I will have let it go by then, that being said this was an era I was most happy with and this one film has left a massive stain all over it, it can't be unseen and the damage done can't really be undone.

    SP being more different than traditional was always going to be a good thing for me, as tradition in this series doesn't hold up well or give the films enough identity. That SP takes some iconography but still makes it feel like a Craig film (real relationships, character development, earnestness, grit and rawness) is a plus for me and doesn't make it stick out too badly from the other 3 despite it at times not focusing enough on what the Craig era does best.

    As for @Getafix, I don't see him using nearly every post I read of his to bash the film you list (mentioning criticism of Brosnan would've worked better for you), but I know someone else who does with his least favorite film. Take that as you shall...
  • Posts: 533
    Why would "M" be responsible for a list of undercover NATO posted around the world? How did an MI-6 agent get its hands on it? Why didn't NATO send an agent to find the missing list? What happened to the list by the end of the film?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Why would "M" be responsible for a list of undercover NATO posted around the world? How did an MI-6 agent get its hands on it? Why didn't NATO send an agent to find the missing list? What happened to the list by the end of the film?

    Because the film starts post-shootout with Patrice, we're not privy to why exactly some MI6 agents (and perhaps some NATO too) were stationed guarding a hard drive of that kind. Perhaps M was tipped off that a list was out in the wild around Turkey and a team was sent to secure its safety, but things went wrong and Patrice, hearing about it from his tip off from Silva, got it to embarrass M in the long run as the operation hung on her head.

    There's little reason for the film to follow up with that line of narrative later, as Silva had released a number of agents and was going to release more to the airwaves, but Bond killed him and his agents. But beyond that, the hard drive was a small pin prick for Silva to get at M and scoot her into a weak position that would see her facing inquiry, from which point he could organize an attack to get at her when she's most vulnerable. Beyond that the hard drive is useless to Silva and to the plot, as it wasn't meant to be a large part of the film, but a mere subplot where more information wasn't needed as the film went on. Perhaps the only context that would be needed would be getting a better idea of how the hard drive ended up in Turkey and how Bond found himself there.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Why would "M" be responsible for a list of undercover NATO posted around the world? How did an MI-6 agent get its hands on it? Why didn't NATO send an agent to find the missing list? What happened to the list by the end of the film?

    Mallory says the "list didn't exist in the eyes of our allies", which suggests that for MI6, it was privileged information. It's logical that they would want to have it, though, since in their line of business, they just have to know what the rest of the world is up to. As to how they got it, probably from some mysterious, anonymous source.

    NATO could've sent an agent to find the list once it's existence became public, and perhaps they did, but we don't get to see that in the film. It's logical that MI6 would send their own agent to recover it, though; it was their mess to clean up, after all.

    The list was presumably recovered when Silva was captured. After that, the threat was not the release of the list, but Silva himself, who had only used the list as a means for attacking MI6.
  • Posts: 11,425
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The problem with SP is somehow some think it's a back to basis Bond film and more traditional.

    That was what it should have been, the sign off of SF was betrayed with SP.

    We got Bond being handed a new mission by his new Boss, what was expected with the next film was a Bond film where Bond goes on a mission no more personal baggage we'd done that with SF and that was as far as it should have gone.

    Though instead BB was hungry to get her Billion dollar boy back after his success with SF and Mendes was never coming back to make a traditional film.

    Yes the window dressing is there, the gadgets, the car and also introducing Bond most famous adversary ESB and his organisation but no Sammy had to make it all psychological and personal once again and actually thought the idea of having Ernst be Bond's childhood nemesis was going to be exciting. I believe he referred to this element in an Empire interview as a depth charge.

    To have this iconic character that had been made a mockery and lampooned by the Austin Powers series return. In the same way that CR had reinvented Bond for a new age is exactly what should have been done with the return of ESB and not riffing on a plot point from that very franchise to do it.

    No wonder the film is looked at as a mockery in some circles, all the hard work done by CR and for me QOS and even SF to be undone in the space of one film, I doubt I'll ever forgive it.

    We'll see if I'm still going on about it in 2020 like @Getafix still continues to assassinate Skyfall after 5 years.

    I'd hope not, it's still pretty fresh at the moment but I hope I will have let it go by then, that being said this was an era I was most happy with and this one film has left a massive stain all over it, it can't be unseen and the damage done can't really be undone.

    Succinctly put. This entire post in a nutshell mirrors my own thoughts on the Craig era and the debacle that is SP.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Why would "M" be responsible for a list of undercover NATO posted around the world? How did an MI-6 agent get its hands on it? Why didn't NATO send an agent to find the missing list? What happened to the list by the end of the film?

    Mallory says the "list didn't exist in the eyes of our allies", which suggests that for MI6, it was privileged information. It's logical that they would want to have it, though, since in their line of business, they just have to know what the rest of the world is up to. As to how they got it, probably from some mysterious, anonymous source.

    NATO could've sent an agent to find the list once it's existence became public, and perhaps they did, but we don't get to see that in the film. It's logical that MI6 would send their own agent to recover it, though; it was their mess to clean up, after all.

    The list was presumably recovered when Silva was captured. After that, the threat was not the release of the list, but Silva himself, who had only used the list as a means for attacking MI6.

    I took it a little differently. Silva already had the list--he just needed to point and click and get it. The hiring of Patrice and the chasing after that list? That was just Silva taking delight in seeing all the running around--their knees must have been killing them. It was 100% manipulation. He hired Patrice to be chased, like a plastic rabbit at the greyhound park.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    TripAces wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Why would "M" be responsible for a list of undercover NATO posted around the world? How did an MI-6 agent get its hands on it? Why didn't NATO send an agent to find the missing list? What happened to the list by the end of the film?

    Mallory says the "list didn't exist in the eyes of our allies", which suggests that for MI6, it was privileged information. It's logical that they would want to have it, though, since in their line of business, they just have to know what the rest of the world is up to. As to how they got it, probably from some mysterious, anonymous source.

    NATO could've sent an agent to find the list once it's existence became public, and perhaps they did, but we don't get to see that in the film. It's logical that MI6 would send their own agent to recover it, though; it was their mess to clean up, after all.

    The list was presumably recovered when Silva was captured. After that, the threat was not the release of the list, but Silva himself, who had only used the list as a means for attacking MI6.

    I took it a little differently. Silva already had the list--he just needed to point and click and get it. The hiring of Patrice and the chasing after that list? That was just Silva taking delight in seeing all the running around--their knees must have been killing them. It was 100% manipulation. He hired Patrice to be chased, like a plastic rabbit at the greyhound park.

    Silva also had Patrice hired for the Shanghai assassination too, though, so it's not likely he just hired him to go nuts and didn't let him know the danger he was in. I imagine they had some sort of working relationship.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Patrice was willing to give his life to not talk so I imagine Silva injected that fear into him.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2017 Posts: 28,694
    Patrice was willing to give his life to not talk so I imagine Silva injected that fear into him.

    Or he was recommended/supplied by Blofeld. That's loyalty that could only come from SPECTRE. Or MI6. ;)
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The problem with SP is somehow some think it's a back to basis Bond film and more traditional.

    That was what it should have been, the sign off of SF was betrayed with SP.

    We got Bond being handed a new mission by his new Boss, what was expected with the next film was a Bond film where Bond goes on a mission no more personal baggage we'd done that with SF and that was as far as it should have gone.

    Though instead BB was hungry to get her Billion dollar boy back after his success with SF and Mendes was never coming back to make a traditional film.

    Yes the window dressing is there, the gadgets, the car and also introducing Bond most famous adversary ESB and his organisation but no Sammy had to make it all psychological and personal once again and actually thought the idea of having Ernst be Bond's childhood nemesis was going to be exciting. I believe he referred to this element in an Empire interview as a depth charge.

    To have this iconic character that had been made a mockery and lampooned by the Austin Powers series return. In the same way that CR had reinvented Bond for a new age is exactly what should have been done with the return of ESB and not riffing on a plot point from that very franchise to do it.

    No wonder the film is looked at as a mockery in some circles, all the hard work done by CR and for me QOS and even SF to be undone in the space of one film, I doubt I'll ever forgive it.

    We'll see if I'm still going on about it in 2020 like @Getafix still continues to assassinate Skyfall after 5 years.

    I'd hope not, it's still pretty fresh at the moment but I hope I will have let it go by then, that being said this was an era I was most happy with and this one film has left a massive stain all over it, it can't be unseen and the damage done can't really be undone.

    I have largely forgotten about SF these days. Not a film I'm ever likely to rewatch and I don't dislike it in the same way as the Brosnan films any way - just find it dull and disappointing.

    I personally find SP a more enjoyable watch.

    But from my perspective its the Mendes era that squandered the potential of the early Craig films. SP is merely a continuation of the wrong turn they took with SF IMO.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited September 2017 Posts: 13,767
    Patrice was willing to give his life to not talk so I imagine Silva injected that fear into him.
    Or he was recommended/supplied by Blofeld. That's loyalty that could only come from SPECTRE. Or MI6. ;)
    That's actually indicated on screen in SPECTRE.
    vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/jamesbond/images/8/87/Spectre.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160221061237

  • Posts: 1,916
    Getafix wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The problem with SP is somehow some think it's a back to basis Bond film and more traditional.

    That was what it should have been, the sign off of SF was betrayed with SP.

    We got Bond being handed a new mission by his new Boss, what was expected with the next film was a Bond film where Bond goes on a mission no more personal baggage we'd done that with SF and that was as far as it should have gone.

    Though instead BB was hungry to get her Billion dollar boy back after his success with SF and Mendes was never coming back to make a traditional film.

    Yes the window dressing is there, the gadgets, the car and also introducing Bond most famous adversary ESB and his organisation but no Sammy had to make it all psychological and personal once again and actually thought the idea of having Ernst be Bond's childhood nemesis was going to be exciting. I believe he referred to this element in an Empire interview as a depth charge.

    To have this iconic character that had been made a mockery and lampooned by the Austin Powers series return. In the same way that CR had reinvented Bond for a new age is exactly what should have been done with the return of ESB and not riffing on a plot point from that very franchise to do it.

    No wonder the film is looked at as a mockery in some circles, all the hard work done by CR and for me QOS and even SF to be undone in the space of one film, I doubt I'll ever forgive it.

    We'll see if I'm still going on about it in 2020 like @Getafix still continues to assassinate Skyfall after 5 years.

    I'd hope not, it's still pretty fresh at the moment but I hope I will have let it go by then, that being said this was an era I was most happy with and this one film has left a massive stain all over it, it can't be unseen and the damage done can't really be undone.

    I have largely forgotten about SF these days. Not a film I'm ever likely to rewatch and I don't dislike it in the same way as the Brosnan films any way - just find it dull and disappointing.

    I personally find SP a more enjoyable watch.

    But from my perspective its the Mendes era that squandered the potential of the early Craig films. SP is merely a continuation of the wrong turn they took with SF IMO.

    Same here. I caught about a half-hour of it on cable yesterday and noticed the fight in the Shanghai gambling den was clunky, not a patch on the Slate fight. It seemed to0 comic and wouldn't have been out of place in SP as far as lighter fare.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited September 2017 Posts: 4,583
    I thought I would place this link in this thread. I came across this story today and found it fascinating and very much linked to the themes and ideas in SF:

    politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/08/how-facebook-changed-the-spy-game-215587
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Patrice was willing to give his life to not talk so I imagine Silva injected that fear into him.
    Or he was recommended/supplied by Blofeld. That's loyalty that could only come from SPECTRE. Or MI6. ;)
    That's actually indicated on screen in SPECTRE.
    vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/jamesbond/images/8/87/Spectre.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160221061237

    @RichardTheBruce, precisely. That was part of why I assumed so, in addition to Patrice's entire mood. Like all of Blofeld's "drone" agents in Morocco, Patrice is quiet and controllable, like a robot.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Just watching SF now... so fresh... a fresh, crip Bond film. Dench is a giant in her scenes... Craig's so present; living and breathing his Bond... So beautiful to the eye...
  • Posts: 4,603
    People are still trying to pull the plot to pieces and they have every right but the audience speaks for iteslf. Most people did not care. It was ahuge success
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Yes, @patb , I'm going along for the ride, and I'm loving it... it's a great little character piece, disguised as a thriller...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    patb wrote: »
    People are still trying to pull the plot to pieces and they have every right but the audience speaks for iteslf. Most people did not care. It was ahuge success

    Because they knew they were watching a Bond film. Some still need to catch up. ;)
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.

    Yeah. Still, a disaster for MI6. That and the C situation in Spectre.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.

    Yeah. Still, a disaster for MI6. That and the C situation in Spectre.

    The beauty of that is Silva's actions against MI6 and London paved the way for C and his anti-terror program in SP. Mendes and co. bridged the gap well there, and they could've even taken it further, with C giving a presentation to Mallory, the PM and some other officials pitching the Nine Eyes plan with a reference to Silva. It's no secret why Blofeld would back a man like Silva and give him the tools to make a mess of London; it offered the perfect justification for his puppet agent to set about initiating his global surveillance protocol.
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