"Did i overcomplicate the plot ?" - Skyfall Appreciation & Discussion

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Comments

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    The funniest scene in SF: when Bond reaches M's hearing, points his gun at Mallory (a man who doesn't trust Bond); Bond winks at him, then re-aims at the fire extinguisher... gets me every time!!
  • Posts: 19,339
    That is a great moment...its the moment Bond and Mallory 'click' and have mutual respect for each other.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    agreed @barryt007; great scene!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.

    Yeah. Still, a disaster for MI6. That and the C situation in Spectre.

    The beauty of that is Silva's actions against MI6 and London paved the way for C and his anti-terror program in SP. Mendes and co. bridged the gap well there, and they could've even taken it further, with C giving a presentation to Mallory, the PM and some other officials pitching the Nine Eyes plan with a reference to Silva. It's no secret why Blofeld would back a man like Silva and give him the tools to make a mess of London; it offered the perfect justification for his puppet agent to set about initiating his global surveillance protocol.

    Absolutely. For my money, Silva was not an actual member of Spectre. They just heard about his campaign against MI6 and financed him, leading to Nine Eyes. Clever stuff, though I wish they had been just a little bit more clear about the subject in Spectre, otherwise one might get the impression Silva was just another Blofeld employee, which weakens his character, in my view.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I think the idea that ESB took advantage of someone who had an axe to grind with Dench's M would be much better, SPECTRE financed Silva but he isn't an agent of theirs.

    Using Silva who has a personal grudge to upset the apple cart is much better idea. Eluding he's full blown SPECTRE is just ridiculous but what do I know.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    Going by the content of the films, Silva worked for the highest BEE-duh, and to serve his own purposes of course.
    The toxicology report showed him as wearing the SPECTRE ring, so he was a member.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    That just makes it worst, which is why I suggested he should have been a hired hand and not a member.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.

    Yeah. Still, a disaster for MI6. That and the C situation in Spectre.

    The beauty of that is Silva's actions against MI6 and London paved the way for C and his anti-terror program in SP. Mendes and co. bridged the gap well there, and they could've even taken it further, with C giving a presentation to Mallory, the PM and some other officials pitching the Nine Eyes plan with a reference to Silva. It's no secret why Blofeld would back a man like Silva and give him the tools to make a mess of London; it offered the perfect justification for his puppet agent to set about initiating his global surveillance protocol.

    Absolutely. For my money, Silva was not an actual member of Spectre. They just heard about his campaign against MI6 and financed him, leading to Nine Eyes. Clever stuff, though I wish they had been just a little bit more clear about the subject in Spectre, otherwise one might get the impression Silva was just another Blofeld employee, which weakens his character, in my view.

    That's essentially how I've viewed it.
    Going by the content of the films, Silva worked for the highest BEE-duh, and to serve his own purposes of course.
    The toxicology report showed him as wearing the SPECTRE ring, so he was a member.

    Well, either Silva was an agent and had a ring, meaning he was under Blofeld's orders, or he shook the hands with men who had the rings (as a "thanks for the resources" gesture in a secret meeting) and went on as a mere associate of fortune.

    If the latter, the character's relative independence is retained, which people seemed to want. If it's the former, then there is at least the interesting irony of the man who teased Bond about serving and bending his knee to keepers being a loyal dog of another kind.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    To me it just is. And Silva used SPECTRE for his own nasty purposes. Doesn't detract a bit.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The list was never recovered. Obviously. It's data - it's not like Silva just handed it back and everything Was fine.

    You're right, the list couldn't be "recovered". I was thinking along the lines of the fact MI6 got ahold of Silva's servers in the island, but clearly there's no reason to think the list wasn't backed up online in a million other online locations. However, are we meant to think the list was never stopped from spreading? I'm not so sure about that. My impression is the film wants us to think the list crisis was averted.

    You assume that the relevant intelligence services contacted the agents in danger of exposure and pulled them out of the field before things got awry. It would set back the agency's terrorist operations immensely, but it would be a better result than having dozens of agents turn up dead after their deep cover was blown.

    Yeah. Still, a disaster for MI6. That and the C situation in Spectre.

    The beauty of that is Silva's actions against MI6 and London paved the way for C and his anti-terror program in SP. Mendes and co. bridged the gap well there, and they could've even taken it further, with C giving a presentation to Mallory, the PM and some other officials pitching the Nine Eyes plan with a reference to Silva. It's no secret why Blofeld would back a man like Silva and give him the tools to make a mess of London; it offered the perfect justification for his puppet agent to set about initiating his global surveillance protocol.

    Absolutely. For my money, Silva was not an actual member of Spectre. They just heard about his campaign against MI6 and financed him, leading to Nine Eyes. Clever stuff, though I wish they had been just a little bit more clear about the subject in Spectre, otherwise one might get the impression Silva was just another Blofeld employee, which weakens his character, in my view.

    That's essentially how I've viewed it.
    Going by the content of the films, Silva worked for the highest BEE-duh, and to serve his own purposes of course.
    The toxicology report showed him as wearing the SPECTRE ring, so he was a member.

    Well, either Silva was an agent and had a ring, meaning he was under Blofeld's orders, or he shook the hands with men who had the rings (as a "thanks for the resources" gesture in a secret meeting) and went on as a mere associate of fortune.

    Let's face it, the latter is not the best explanation, but I'll take it. The whole explanation about the ring was poorly handled in Spectre, anyway.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    To me it just is. And Silva used SPECTRE for his own nasty purposes. Doesn't detract a bit.

    I'm not bothered by it either way. But cool to wonder about. I need to wrestle Sam down for an interview and make him spill his guts.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    If SPECTRE and anything from B24 is back for B25 I hope for some explainations.

    The ring was ridiculous (but fun) in TB (still way too obvious) but was totally insane in SP ... and I still don't get the octopus thing when the organization's name is SPECTRE (and we saw a ghost logo on the old rings ... which makes sense).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    If SPECTRE and anything from B24 is back for B25 I hope for some explainations.

    The ring was ridiculous (but fun) in TB (still way too obvious) but was totally insane in SP ... and I still don't get the octopus thing when the organization's name is SPECTRE (and we saw a ghost logo on the old rings ... which makes sense).

    Never got the hoopla over the rings, but that's besides the point. I think the early ring designs made it pretty ambiguous about if it's supposed to be a ghost or octopus, especially the TB design which has 8 legs (or tentacles on it). The FRWL ring is the only one that could actually be confused for a ghost, but you can still see the tentacle aspects of the design quite clearly. Both figures make sense for the organization, with their haunting presence acting unnoticed like a ghost, and their control over so many aspects of a globalized word, like they've wrapped their tentacles around the earth. But amongst fans and scholars, I think the decision is set on the octopus anyway.

    http://img07.deviantart.net/ec64/i/2015/097/9/f/spectre_logo_evolution_by_jarvisrama99-d8ou4m7.png

    I think SP actually has the best design in regards to how it looks, as it is the most ambiguous between a ghost and an octopus. The eyes on the old rings make them feel more animalistic than spiritual, but the clean and minimalist modern ring is much more mysterious and could be either figure because of its more restrained design. It's also plain enough not to put a scent on the organization if it was found.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    M's comment about the ejector seat was worth the price of the DVD.

    Indeed it was. Very funny.

    I found it so... obvious, generic even. It sounded less like an organic line of dialogue and more like "[insert ejector seat comment here]".
  • Posts: 1,162
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.

    You should really do literary studies.
    They also love to see things that aren't there.
    Really do you indeed believe that the same people who - two times in a row (!) - didn't give a toss about making up only slightly coherent and logical stories would really go to the lenghts necessary to work up all the things you imagine?
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,582
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.

    You should really do literary studies.
    They also love to see things that aren't there.
    Really do you indeed believe that the same people who - two times in a row (!) - didn't give a toss about making up only slightly coherent and logical stories would really go to the lenghts necessary to work up all the things you imagine?


    You ought to read more Jung. Fleming did. And it explains a lot.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    TripAces wrote: »
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.

    You should really do literary studies.
    They also love to see things that aren't there.
    Really do you indeed believe that the same people who - two times in a row (!) - didn't give a toss about making up only slightly coherent and logical stories would really go to the lenghts necessary to work up all the things you imagine?


    You ought to read more Jung. Fleming did. And it explains a lot.

    Might be a bit too heavy in content for someone who can't read simple themes in films. Perhaps we should recommend See Spot Run as a practice text to lead up to Jung.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,509
    I wouldn't bother with this one gentlemen-- some boys live in the bubble of their own genius.
  • Posts: 1,162
    TripAces wrote: »
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.

    You should really do literary studies.
    They also love to see things that aren't there.
    Really do you indeed believe that the same people who - two times in a row (!) - didn't give a toss about making up only slightly coherent and logical stories would really go to the lenghts necessary to work up all the things you imagine?


    You ought to read more Jung. Fleming did. And it explains a lot.

    I have read Jung and when it comes to SF it explains nothing
  • Posts: 1,162
    TripAces wrote: »
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Thank you for this explanation - I am really struck by this and to me it's like Apple having a fish as their company logo. I see and understand what you meant - but I would have rather gone using a ghost again ... especially in the title sequence. The TB logo remains my favourite

    @SeanCraig, as I said, I think SP balances well between octopus and ghost insignia, and makes it a part of the titles and themes of the film so for me, what you want is already there. Like how TB had the octopus imagery and the briefing that showed us the tentacles of control SPECTRE had while also having Bond tease Largo about a "specter" at his shoulder, SP has the same duality between ghost and octopus imagery, and more of it.

    The opening titles of SP do have images of octopi, but you can also see sections where the tentacles of the octopus featured are misty/foggy, like a ghost's, as they travel through the design to make that specter connection; on top of that there's skull imagery to again convey a sense of ghostly presence from beyond the grave. Kleinman was no doubt conscious of the themes of the film and how the minimalist design of the SPECTRE logo could be either an octopus or ghost, and so he created a title design that catered to both insignias as we've never seen before (in such quantity).

    In the film itself we see the tentacles of SPECTRE in Rome as the members share the massive worldwide hold the organization has and how it has been able to manipulate things to make Nine Eyes a reality, connecting the image of an octopus to the real actions of the group. On top of this, however, Bond is significantly and symbolically built up as a messenger of death from the very beginning in his Day of the Dead garb, connecting his mission to kill Sciarra and get his ring to the very meaning Mexicans hold in the day itself, where their loved ones return to the earth in a spiritual form, much like M did to give Bond the mission on her recorded video. Furthering the ghost imagery and themes, Blofeld is built as an opposing force to Bond who is an actual ghost from his past in a figurative and literal sense, because Bond thought Franz died long ago and seeing him alive in front of him is like seeing a corpse reanimate himself. This imagery is aided by the fact that Blofeld's SPECTRE has been haunting Bond for years through Quantum, again giving them a ghost-like appeal in addition to their octopus connections.

    In this way, images connoting spirits, ghosts, hauntings and life from beyond the grave all come together to service the specter side of the organization in SP, as do many that service the idea of SPECTRE being a metaphorical octopus. Because of this, the film is for my money the best when it comes to realizing that duality of SPECTRE, backed up by the more minimalist design for the organization that more effectively represents both a ghost or octopus without the design favoring one or the other. It's a balance that to this point has never been so well struck in the series, as the group has more widely been synonymous with the octopus and the films themselves do little to address this in the way that SP quite beautifully layers its imagery and themes that serve the larger story and the very duality SPECTRE itself holds in tandem.

    You should really do literary studies.
    They also love to see things that aren't there.
    Really do you indeed believe that the same people who - two times in a row (!) - didn't give a toss about making up only slightly coherent and logical stories would really go to the lenghts necessary to work up all the things you imagine?


    You ought to read more Jung. Fleming did. And it explains a lot.

    Might be a bit too heavy in content for someone who can't read simple themes in films. Perhaps we should recommend See Spot Run as a practice text to lead up to Jung.

    Just the same themes you find in abundance in masterpieces like General Hospital
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    I wouldn't bother with this one gentlemen-- some boys live in the bubble of their own genius.

    Don't hate me just because I'm gifted.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    This guy's reminding me of Stewie from Family Guy, except he's never funny, and always annoying...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    peter wrote: »
    This guy's reminding me of Stewie from Family Guy, except he's never funny, and always annoying...

    @peter, he's got the being a whiny baby bit down pat, though.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    This guy's reminding me of Stewie from Family Guy, except he's never funny, and always annoying...

    As so many things discussed here humor is a matter of taste and style. Not that I would expect either one by someone, who watches family guy.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bwp55.jpg
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 -- you know what they say about people who have to extol their virtues onto others...
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited October 2017 Posts: 4,582
    "Somehow I really find it amusing how you Skyfall fans keep clinging on your delusions ( especially by considering anyone, who doesn't share your opinions simply not being able to get that intellectual wonder that Skyfall supposedly is)."

    @noSolaceleft

    I never said that. Most of what I am writing on SF is done with a wink and a smile.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited October 2017 Posts: 4,582
    "Like what? Taking the head of a major world-leading country's head of the foreign intelligence agency into a deathtrap with no backup or even proper weaponry? Yes, that explains a lot how masterfully it was thought of."

    @ClarkDevlin

    1. It was a deathtrap for Silva, because he is not an agent that works well in the field. He has distaste for it, said it himself. It shows during his bungled attempt to assassinate M during the hearing. Bond wanted the advantage...and he had it, really.

    2. Remember, M went along with this plan to get Silva in territory he does not like. And the plan all but worked, except for a stray bullet.

    3. The use of "breadcrumbs" to lead Silva was all that could be communicated. Anything else had the potential of being intercepted. So, yes: no backup, no communications.

    4. Bond's mistake was in not realizing his arsenal at Skyfall had been auctioned off. No biggie. Some times the "old ways" are the best.
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