"Did i overcomplicate the plot ?" - Skyfall Appreciation & Discussion

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  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    Sorry about that Felix, but you were just about to say 007....

    But yet Bond has now revealed he is 007 in front of Largo’s man...

    So... uhm... why did he punch Felix in the gut again???


    This is exactly one of those examples I talked about a few posts before. Something illogical or wrong which would easily be salvageable by adding or taking a line.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    and I agree, @noSolaceleft -- however, this scene doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the film, nor am I wrong for placing the film quite high on my list, even though it does have leaps of logic throughout.

    But as a whole, it's a damn fine film.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    My apologies @noSolaceleft, I should have been more specific: you asked someone to write down everything they thought was logical in SF, and you promised to write back why that person was wrong...

    It still sticks: film’s subjective. @TripAces, or whomever, see things in SF that you don’t like. They’re not wrong. As your perceptions on the film aren’t wrong either.

    In art, people like what they like, warts and all, and, as I said, no film is flawless. Not one.

    But you insist that your opinion on a film, something that is SO subjective, that YOUR opinion is right and absolute. How utterly ridiculous!

    And if you’re correct about, say, a plot hole? Then what’s the endgame here? That because you KNOW that there is a plot hole, or a leap in logic, that now all should disregard the feelings they have for this film??

    Is it logical for Bond to slug Felix in the gut, tell him to be quiet, and then announce, in front of Largo’s man “sorry about that Felix but you were just about to say 007”... No, that’s not logical. But I still love TB.

    In the end, I love debate, arguing points, but when discussing film I’m well aware that my perception may not be seen by all, that my overall enjoyment of a film is subjective, like all art.

    The last thing I would ask anyone to do is write me why they think something works for them, just so I can tell them they’re wrong. Especially when discussing something that, like it , or not, is subjective.

    I have written several times before that anyone can love Skyfall as much as he or she wants, but that he or she shouldn't kid themselves that the movie makes any sense. What angers me is that so many times Skyfalls defenders act from a position of smugness, constantly hinting that those who don't like Skyfall are just not able to understand it. Also that gentleman insisted that those who say that Skyfall lacks logic just weren't capable to wrap their mind around it so I offered to prove him wrong anytime he would be brave enough to face the truth. Fair enough, if you ask me.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I think it's futile, especially if the endgame is to ever prove that someone is wrong for seeing what they see in a work of film...

    I just read a very heart-felt and well-written testament from @thelivingroyale about why Dalton is his favourite Bond (in the controversial thread). I personally have trouble with Dalton as Bond-- I can still appreciate him, I still think I understand where he was coming from (absolutely the right direction, IMHO), I just find that he didn't execute as well as some of the other Bonds.

    That's my personal opinion. I could then jump all over The Living Royale and bash him and ask him to write down all the reasons why he thinks Tim works for Bond. And I could reply to this, shooting down all of his opinions. It would be easy to do-- not because he's wrong and I'm right. It's because Tim's performance is subjective, like any performance in any film (or TV show, or play).

    And, in the end, @thelivingroyale was so articulate, that, like all things subjective, he has given me pause and makes me consider his thoughts (man, I SHOULD watch TLD again... and maybe the next time I see it, the good the man did in his performance will outweigh as what I see are his weaknesses).

    Once again, I'm a firm believer in debating and arguing; however, to be insulting towards another, insisting they're wrong in what they see in a subjective piece of art, and asking for them to write down all the things they see work in a film, just so you can say "wrong" is more goading than it is discussing, arguing, debating.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I thought this was an appreciation thread?

    Seriously I gave up on slagging off SP but nearly 5 years later @Getafix is still banging on about how much he hates SF.

    Seriously I've never seen someone devote so much energy to something they hate.

    Time for @Getafix and Skyfall to get a room.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    And what would the offspring look like @Shardlake ??
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    These discussions are meant to be fun. They should be fun. The more I defend SF, the more I actually love it, because I dig back up the things that I appreciate in the film, like this line, which key to the plot:

    "It's amazing the panic you can cause with a single computer." - Severine

    And BTW: Marlohe is one of the hottest Bond girls of all time. We can all agree on that one, right? ;-)
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    I'll pick one from DAD for example... Bond not sensing how much did his gun weigh after pulling it out from underneath his pillow, carrying it all the way through the whole greenhouse without even checking it, cocking it, see how many rounds he has in the magazine... That bothered me like hell.
    I had that natural take on it, that Bond would notice the difference for rounds removed by the weight or checking the checking the chamber.

    The film didn't stop to explain, but the Raymond Benson novelization puts sense to it: Frost messed with the firing pin, making the pistol non-functioning but otherwise appearing intact, same weight when held.

    So it's a case of either going with what appears on screen (OO7's P99 doesn't fire when he needs it, Frost claims responsibility). Or rejecting it on what's unexplained and didn't convince the viewer. This also applies to the flipping boat in QUANTUM OF SOLACE: folks claim it incossigle (my Benny Hill reference). Still, it's on screen and undeniable that the chasing boat is suddenly drawn backward and flips. That's separate from a desired underwater shot or filler footage to explain or convince. But bottom line: is NOT incossigle. In fact, it's reality for the film as presented.

    These things generally follow a standard approach. Don't like the film, many things or most anything is open to question. Like the film, no problem.
    1218_tmp_8c5a3c9d19901a6002b9a42135f02bc88129list2.jpg
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @TripAces, she is one of my all time favourites, and I, like others have already said, wished she had more screen time.

    However, I think the shorter screen time, in general, makes her that much more effective: live the audience wanting more. I think Severine clearly got this point across.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    peter wrote: »
    And what would the offspring look like @Shardlake ??

    It doesn't bear thinking about.

    I'm sure if Dalton would have been in SF he'd of loved it.

    At least Craig didn't appear in such a jarring car crash as LTK.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I thought this was an appreciation thread?

    Seriously I gave up on slagging off SP but nearly 5 years later @Getafix is still banging on about how much he hates SF.

    Seriously I've never seen someone devote so much energy to something they hate.

    Time for @Getafix and Skyfall to get a room.

    It was,but we have been told,rightfully so in my opinion,to change those threads to 'appreciation and discussion'...so its a good/bad discussion now on all my threads .
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @barryt007 -- he's the perfect politician and the Great Compromiser!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @mattjoes, first I've ever heard that Bond does it on purpose. But why would he miss the shot to let Silva win? What's gained? I'm sure the last thought on Bond's mind was not angering him, as he was cracking sarcastic jokes with him moments before.

    I went back to Mendes' commentary on the scene.
    Sam Mendes wrote:
    And of course, Bond-- you think is back to how he was in the firing range, at the beginning when his hand is shaking, but it turns out he is pretending. He deliberately misses, and of course, the line that he delivers after Silva kills Sévérine in the most callous way is designed to relax him for a second before he pounces.
    That's all I've got, but I think in another scene, Mendes goes into further detail, stating that Bond does that so that Silva gets to knock the glass. Hope I'm not misremembering or inventing things; I'll have to see if I can find the exact moment. Anyway, I can't say much else except that the idea would be that if Bond shot the glass, he'd win the game and Silva would be left with nothing to shoot at but Sévérine.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @mattjoes , I did always see the scene as such-- a ruse, Bond buying time, having Silva believe (and the audience too) that Bond was broken...
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    peter wrote: »
    @mattjoes , I did always see the scene as such-- a ruse, Bond buying time, having Silva believe (and the audience too) that Bond was broken...

    Yeah, same with the comment on Scotch. A distraction.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,509
    And that’s why, when Bond strikes, it’s that much more effective; if we, the audience, knew he was “faking” to trap Silva, his escape from the situation would have led to a “meh” type shrug... Instead we see his flinch and his gun-hand shake, and we are immediately brought back to his firing range test— Silva was right, Bond is broken (that was a great “plant”, by the writers, with an amazing payoff later in the film).

    And then Bond jumps into action.

    And it’s awesome.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    peter wrote: »
    And that’s why, when Bond strikes, it’s that much more effective; if we, the audience, knew he was “faking” to trap Silva, his escape from the situation would have led to a “meh” type shrug... Instead we see his flinch and his gun-hand shake, and we are immediately brought back to his firing range test— Silva was right, Bond is broken (that was a great “plant”, by the writers, with an amazing payoff later in the film).

    And then Bond jumps into action.

    And it’s awesome.

    Yes
  • Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I thought this was an appreciation thread?

    Seriously I gave up on slagging off SP but nearly 5 years later @Getafix is still banging on about how much he hates SF.

    Seriously I've never seen someone devote so much energy to something they hate.

    Time for @Getafix and Skyfall to get a room.

    You've been saying that 5 years
  • Posts: 19,339
    peter wrote: »
    @barryt007 -- he's the perfect politician and the Great Compromiser!

    Always good Sir,always ;)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I love TB...but...

    PPl complain about plot holes in SF???

    In TB, a routine training test flight, with actual live bombs on board??? Logic-out-window
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    peter wrote: »
    I love TB...but...

    PPl complain about plot holes in SF???

    In TB, a routine training test flight, with actual live bombs on board??? Logic-out-window

    TB is thoroughly flawed. I still love it. LOL
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Plot holes and plot armour have long been a part of Bond. The plot of SF is far from believable but it shouldn't be anything hard to swallow given some of the past stories we've encountered in Bond.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    exactly @TripAces and @ForYourEyesOnly, I still love TB, and that was my point a few days ago when there was a barrage of fire directed at SF (a film I also love for many reasons outside of, or despite, the usual types of plotholes we find in Bond films (and, as added emphasis, I repeat, no film is flawless!)).
  • Posts: 1,916
    peter wrote: »
    I love TB...but...

    PPl complain about plot holes in SF???

    In TB, a routine training test flight, with actual live bombs on board??? Logic-out-window

    But just weeks after TB premiered, an actual USAF B-52 carrying 4 H-bombs crashed over Spain, so it's not that unrealistic.

    Still makes more sense than an underground train crashing at the exact time of an escape.
  • Posts: 1,162
    I really don't get why you people are debating in absolutes. Of course there's no movie without some plot holes or illogicalities. The problem (I and others) have with SF is that it features one after another. I still have no idea how it was even possible to create such a mess. I'm not sure if I could do it even if I got extra paid for it!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I'd love to read some of your writing @noSolaceleft. Would you care to PM me? I truly am interested.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    I really don't get why you people are debating in absolutes. Of course there's no movie without some plot holes or illogicalities. The problem (I and others) have with SF is that it features one after another. I still have no idea how it was even possible to create such a mess. I'm not sure if I could do it even if I got extra paid for it!

    But to many of us, it wasn't a mess at all. It's a "matter of perspective."

    BT3366 wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I love TB...but...

    PPl complain about plot holes in SF???

    In TB, a routine training test flight, with actual live bombs on board??? Logic-out-window

    But just weeks after TB premiered, an actual USAF B-52 carrying 4 H-bombs crashed over Spain, so it's not that unrealistic.

    Still makes more sense than an underground train crashing at the exact time of an escape.

    The part that kills me about TB, but I shrug it off, is the ridiculous lengths Largo and SPECTRE went to: plastic surgery just to hijack an armed military aircraft? They already had Domino in their mitts. So all they had to do was hold her ransom and demand her brother fly the plane where they wanted. A lot less expensive. LOL
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2017 Posts: 4,043
    .

  • Posts: 1,916
    TripAces wrote: »
    I really don't get why you people are debating in absolutes. Of course there's no movie without some plot holes or illogicalities. The problem (I and others) have with SF is that it features one after another. I still have no idea how it was even possible to create such a mess. I'm not sure if I could do it even if I got extra paid for it!

    But to many of us, it wasn't a mess at all. It's a "matter of perspective."

    BT3366 wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I love TB...but...

    PPl complain about plot holes in SF???

    In TB, a routine training test flight, with actual live bombs on board??? Logic-out-window

    But just weeks after TB premiered, an actual USAF B-52 carrying 4 H-bombs crashed over Spain, so it's not that unrealistic.

    Still makes more sense than an underground train crashing at the exact time of an escape.

    The part that kills me about TB, but I shrug it off, is the ridiculous lengths Largo and SPECTRE went to: plastic surgery just to hijack an armed military aircraft? They already had Domino in their mitts. So all they had to do was hold her ransom and demand her brother fly the plane where they wanted. A lot less expensive. LOL

    I don't disagree. I guess the double thing was in fashion at the time and sounded cool. True on your ideas. NSNA had a better way of working around it also and I think in the novel I think he was just a greedy guy they bribed to crashing the plane.

    The coincidental nature of Bond just happening to be in the same health clinic where the SPECTRE plot is unfolding is my biggest hand-wringing moment, but I just go with it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Most ppl do just get on with it, don’t we? A piece of entertainment that takes us out of our ordinary lives for a couple of hours.
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