Skyfall Considered the Most Overated film of all.

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited March 2017 Posts: 13,978
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Connery's performance in DN and especially FRWL is the most confident and assured Bond has ever been and that opening introduction in DN ozzes charisma. You are going to try and tell me that Dalton matches up to that with his intro? Both that and Craig's intro in CR are in another league.

    Ok, look at it another way. Dalton's introduction is full of intrigue and a little action, are you going to tell me that Connery's introduction (as worshipped as it is) matches up to that of Dalton's for action and intrigue? It's all a matter of perspective, and in what category you choose to judge.

    And I do believe Dalton's Bond was charming at times. See, I would prefer an actor to reign in the charm, and keep it in check, than overdo it.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I think Dalton's intro is great and one of the finest PTS of the series but I don't think it's iconic in the way that Connery's will always be and how Craig's will be perceived in the future

    I was at one time bowled over by Dalton's Bond, I was there in 97 & 99 in his corner when it was a rather lonely place but over the years I've noticed flaws in his portrayal and unlike you Craig just convinced me from the get go and unlike you I think his SPECTRE performance is the worst of his era.

    That over confident smart arse Bond is not his strength he needs to play it with depth and mystery, his version in SPECTRE at times looked like he wasn't engaged not like he was previously.

    Possibly his injury had a part to play in this but despite him saying I think the fact he made that comment to the press about slashing his wrists would suggest that all was not well on the set of SP as I never got this attitude from him while he was promoting SF, he was overjoyed with it and didn't mind saying it.

    Even during QOS promotion he seemed proud of what he'd done it was only in retrospect that he turned on the film and started to say it had problems.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The only truly iconic intro is Connery's. That's the one everyone still remembers, and will always remember. Simple but terribly effective on account of the atmosphere, the locale, Trench & of course Bond, James Bond.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Operation: Dick Measuring is a go, then, lads?

    All 6 are great for unique reasons, let's not get snappy.

    Except for Lazenby

    I love George, and have been wholly won over for years. He was a mortal man that took on a god-like role, and didn't cock it up. Massive kudos must go to him, as few were brave enough to step up to that plate, and OHMSS is partly the classic it is because of the physicality and vulnerability he was able to transmit. He kills me and gets the tears flowing every time he holds Tracy, and that counts for a lot in my book. You're young yet, you'll grow to like him later.
    bondjames wrote: »
    The only truly iconic intro is Connery's. That's the one everyone still remembers, and will always remember. Simple but terribly effective on account of the atmosphere, the locale, Trench & of course Bond, James Bond.

    @bondjames, honestly, after hearing Sean's delivery of that line in the beginning of DN, it's hard to listen to any other actor saying it. In that one moment, the way he moved and enunciated the words were just utterly, utterly perfect. Classic or iconic doesn't begin to describe it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I agree @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. It's probably one of the top five most memorable intro scenes in any film because of how beautifully everything came together, but none of it would have meant anything without the flawless, utterly confident delivery from Connery. A star was born.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. It's probably one of the top five most memorable intro scenes in any film because of how beautifully everything came together, but none of it would have meant anything without the flawless, utterly confident delivery from Connery. A star was born.

    Yes, it's a piece of film that caught the exact moment he went from actor to icon and nothing was ever the same again.
  • Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Better than Connery in his early films or Craig during the torture scene? To quote Dalton himself "NO WAY!"
    Yes. Dalton in LTK surpasses every other actor who has played Bond, in every other film, because he nails the Fleming character 100%.

    Craig In CR and Connery in FRWL are a distant second.

    Opinions are opinions, but this one is actually wrong.

    Only in your eyes.

    We've all been wrong before. Don't you worry yourself.
    I'll try not to.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I'll stomach them all apart from Brosnan, tribute Bond acting.

    Though I can't deny his popularity. Dalton's fans have to be commended for their support of him but his acting in LTK is all over the place plus his accent.

    I much prefer him in TLD, the rogue agent is so much better essayed by Craig.

    I'm not bothered that Dalton is supposedly the most Fleming Bond both Connery and Craig knock him into a cocked hat when it comes to confidence and swagger.

    Connery's performance in DN and especially FRWL is the most confident and assured Bond has ever been and that opening introduction in DN ozzes charisma. You are going to try and tell me that Dalton matches up to that with his intro? Both that and Craig's intro in CR are in another league.
    Depends on what we are talking about here. If we are looking at performances on charisma and swagger alone, Connery wins hands down. Greatest movie entrance? Connery wins hands down.

    But an actor who makes Bond look believable, and more importantly, echoes on screen the exact same character that Fleming wrote about in the novels, Dalton wins hands down, because the Bond of the novels wasn't full of swagger and charisma. He was more introverted, had self doubts.
  • Posts: 386
    Operation: Dick Measuring is a go, then, lads?

    All 6 are great for unique reasons, let's not get snappy.

    Except for Lazenby

    I love George, and have been wholly won over for years. He was a mortal man that took on a god-like role, and didn't cock it up. Massive kudos must go to him, as few were brave enough to step up to that plate, and OHMSS is partly the classic it is because of the physicality and vulnerability he was able to transmit. He kills me and gets the tears flowing every time he holds Tracy, and that counts for a lot in my book. You're young yet, you'll grow to like him later.
    bondjames wrote: »
    The only truly iconic intro is Connery's. That's the one everyone still remembers, and will always remember. Simple but terribly effective on account of the atmosphere, the locale, Trench & of course Bond, James Bond.

    @bondjames, honestly, after hearing Sean's delivery of that line in the beginning of DN, it's hard to listen to any other actor saying it. In that one moment, the way he moved and enunciated the words were just utterly, utterly perfect. Classic or iconic doesn't begin to describe it.

    great post.

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I'll stomach them all apart from Brosnan, tribute Bond acting.

    Though I can't deny his popularity. Dalton's fans have to be commended for their support of him but his acting in LTK is all over the place plus his accent.

    I much prefer him in TLD, the rogue agent is so much better essayed by Craig.

    I'm not bothered that Dalton is supposedly the most Fleming Bond both Connery and Craig knock him into a cocked hat when it comes to confidence and swagger.

    Connery's performance in DN and especially FRWL is the most confident and assured Bond has ever been and that opening introduction in DN ozzes charisma. You are going to try and tell me that Dalton matches up to that with his intro? Both that and Craig's intro in CR are in another league.
    Depends on what we are talking about here. If we are looking at performances on charisma and swagger alone, Connery wins hands down. Greatest movie entrance? Connery wins hands down.

    But an actor who makes Bond look believable, and more importantly, echoes on screen the exact same character that Fleming wrote about in the novels, Dalton wins hands down, because the Bond of the novels wasn't full of swagger and charisma. He was more introverted, had self doubts.

    I agree, I've always thought Dalton brought that touch of Ian Flemingness better than any other actor. That's why he's my favourite as well.

    Even down to the small things, like his reaction to Saunders' murder. You can feel Dalton has read the novels. I have that feeling only with him.
  • Posts: 163
    "overrated"? It is a matter of an individual's opinion.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think Craig in CR had got that balance of confidence, swagger and violence virtually spot on in a way that Dalton didn't quite achieve (though he came close in TLD).

    Even Dalton admitted that Craig and CR took Bond further than he did.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally thought Craig looked a bit effete as he sashayed across the rooftops in the PTS. I felt this was a far cry from Connery's purposeful yet elegant stride, and a bit affected imho. That's not to take anything away from the wonderful tracking shot itself, which Mendes must be given full credit for.

    Spot on. Perhaps the tight suit made him walk like a toad?

    Still, a minor gripe in an otherwise great sequence. I much prefer this to running through walls and rolling around on the tarmac.

    Yes, the PTS in SP is wonderful. Probably the best thing Mendes has done with Bond IMO. SP is just a much more satisfying Bond experience for me than SF.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think Craig in CR had got that balance of confidence, swagger and violence virtually spot on in a way that Dalton didn't quite achieve (though he came close in TLD).

    Even Dalton admitted that Craig and CR took Bond further than he did.

    Just Dalton being polite. You have to say that kind of thing, don't you.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Nope, the whole of SF is better than the SP PTS.
    You don't say?
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Dalton will always be the third best bond actor.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally thought Craig looked a bit effete as he sashayed across the rooftops in the PTS. I felt this was a far cry from Connery's purposeful yet elegant stride, and a bit affected imho. That's not to take anything away from the wonderful tracking shot itself, which Mendes must be given full credit for.

    Spot on. Perhaps the tight suit made him walk like a toad?

    Still, a minor gripe in an otherwise great sequence. I much prefer this to running through walls and rolling around on the tarmac.

    Yes, the PTS in SP is wonderful. Probably the best thing Mendes has done with Bond IMO. SP is just a much more satisfying Bond experience for me than SF.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think Craig in CR had got that balance of confidence, swagger and violence virtually spot on in a way that Dalton didn't quite achieve (though he came close in TLD).

    Even Dalton admitted that Craig and CR took Bond further than he did.

    Just Dalton being polite. You have to say that kind of thing, don't you.

    True, but I do think Craig benifitted from Martin Campbell's direction and a creative team who were all on the same page in bringing a darker Bond to the screen (I have an inkling Glen and a lot of the team in TLD missed Roger's presence and lighter approach).
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Nope, the whole of SF is better than the SP PTS.
    You don't say?

    Question or statement?

    I was replying to Getafix.

    It was a polite way of saying "no sh*t, sherlock."
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited March 2017 Posts: 4,043
    The Bond of the novels is a different creature, I would say those that mixed the Flemingness of the novels with the movie Bond have been the most successful.

    No one's denying Dalton read all the books and was big exuding this in his interpretation but Connery and Craig echoed traits of IF Bond but Sean set the blueprint of who Bond is on the big screen.

    Confidence and Swagger is an element of that, Bond being uncertain doesn't really strike me as a good thing throughout, yes I think Craig shows Bond isn't unbreakable in his films.

    I know one thing no other actor hit the inner conflict and psychological distress of Bond than Craig did in CR. I really couldn't see Dalton doing the fight on the staircase then the moment when he medicates himself with alcohol and tends to his wounds.

    This was a moment no previous actor had tried with Bond, also Dalton would have never been able to better Craig in that moment in the shower with Vesper. Sorry but the darker more layered Bond was aced by Craig.

    An out and out IF Bond on the big screen in this day and age would be a big turn off to wider audiences.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I agree @Shardlake. Craig has a subtlety to him in (particularly in CR and QoS) that Dalton didn't have. I originally favoured Dalton but did a reassessment of Craig a few years back and his performance just seems more authentic.

    (The scene that made me change my mind wasn't CR funnily enough but QoS when he's talking to Camile in the cave).

    I'm going to go flat out and say it, the Bond of the novels is (albeit deliberately) boring. They kind of had to "sex him up" for the big screen.

    Personally, I suspect that had Dalton stuck around for GE, they would have put some levity back into the character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The Bond of the novels is a different creature, I would say those that mixed the Flemingness of the novels with the movie Bond have been the most successful.
    I completely agree. I'm not a Fleming purist, but I instinctively know when the character on screen is being interpreted in a genuine fashion. It seems real in these instances. Consistent, character wise with what has come before, even if differing due to the actor's respective specific interpretation.

    It's critical that an actor combine both the intent & spirit of Fleming's character with the swagger & style of the much loved movie iteration. That's traditionally when we end up with a great Bond film.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 3,333
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    Personally, I wouldn't judge both Dalton and Craig on equal terms due to the fact that Dalton's Bond was really a continuation of Moore's Bond, albeit a younger and sterner model. Craig had the benefit of a total reboot and as a freshman starting all over again. Two completely different takes under two completely different circumstances. Craig didn't have to deal with any of the doubletaking pigeon Moore hangover stuff and goofiness that continued over into Dalton's tenure. Craig was allowed and given a complete clean slate, whereas Dalton was denied this in his own first feature. From the getgo we know that Craig's Bond has absolutely no connection whatsoever to Brosnan's, ok, apart from the odd inclusion of Dame Judy as M again.

    There's no mistaking that Craig is great as Bond and the role seems to fit him like a second skin, but let's give Dalton a modicum of credit for having the strength, ability and balls to try and tweak Moore's Bond without totally jettisoning some of the same traits. Dalton took over from Moore with steadily declining box office receipts. Craig was fortunate to be handed a revived franchise thanks to the popularity of Brosnan, notably in the US market.

    I guess what I'm alluding to is that I don't really see Dalton playing the same role. Sure, he's playing the same character, but there's a seismic change in the writing, the style, direction, personal backstory and geopolitical landscape, that I don't believe you can compare the two on equal footing without favouring the more up to date version due to its current popularity.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    It always seemed a bit difficult imagining Moore being sent to kill someone. This is where Dalton (I think) has more credibility. Moore was good when commanding others or investigating something but not so much as an all-out killer (bar the odd moment).
  • Posts: 7,418
    Yeh, i always thought Bonds cold blooded killing of Stromberg in TSWLM rather out of sync with the lighter tone of the movie!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Yeh, i always thought Bonds cold blooded killing of Stromberg in TSWLM rather out of sync with the lighter tone of the movie!

    It wouldn't seem that way had they been able to keep Blofeld as the villain instead of Stromberg. It definitely feels like quite the personal kill in the finished film.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Yeh, i always thought Bonds cold blooded killing of Stromberg in TSWLM rather out of sync with the lighter tone of the movie!

    I think Moore was good with those scenes (his killing of Grishka in OP is a great one) but he seemed a bit long in the tooth to be credible as a "blunt instrument".
  • Posts: 7,418
    Maybe. I just think Moores Bond shooting Stromberg through the chamber under the table was enough! For Moores Bond to then stand up and shoot him twice more seemed uncomfortable. Connery, Lazenby, Dalton and Craig would have been ok with it, but not Moore, and not TSWLM!
  • Posts: 11,189
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Maybe. I just think Moores Bond shooting Stromberg through the chamber under the table was enough! For Moores Bond to then stand up and shoot him twice more seemed uncomfortable. Connery, Lazenby, Dalton and Craig would have been ok with it, but not Moore, and not TSWLM!

    I agree, it seemed almost a bit too...personal perhaps. At least when Connery did it there was a reason (i.e. avenging the killing of Dent). Actually, even when Moore does it in FYEO and OP he's avenging the deaths of his colleagues.

    I do like "you've shot your bolt Stromnberg, now it's my turn" though.
  • Posts: 7,418
    Agree on the line, a good one, but they should have ended it there!
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