Skyfall Considered the Most Overated film of all.

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  • Posts: 15,117
    FoxRox wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    It is praised by critics, and even then still in the shadow of GF. And the start of FRWL has to be slow. It is one of its strengths, makes it a true thriller.

    A "true thriller" doesn't have to start slow, just saying.

    It does not have to start fast either. The slow moments of FRWL are parts of its strengths.

    Anyway. Back on topic, is SF overrated? Maybe, like many quality movies recently released. But the most overrated movie of all time? Certainly not. Mendes' American Beauty is far more overrated.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote:
    FoxRox wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    It is praised by critics, and even then still in the shadow of GF. And the start of FRWL has to be slow. It is one of its strengths, makes it a true thriller.

    A "true thriller" doesn't have to start slow, just saying.

    It does not have to start fast either. The slow moments of FRWL are parts of its strengths.

    Anyway. Back on topic, is SF overrated? Maybe, like many quality movies recently released. But the most overrated movie of all time? Certainly not. Mendes' American Beauty is far more overrated.

    May be Mendes is a little bit overrated?

    I actually thought American Beauty was pretty good. And his little known Away We Go is quite entertaining. But apart from that I haven't been that impressed. I thought Road to Perdition was soulless.
  • Posts: 15,117
    American Beauty is not a bad movie, but it is very overrated and maybe the.most undeserving movie to ever win an.Oscar. it is a good student project lifted up by great actors, filled with unsubtle dialogues that are statement more than actual... Dialogues. Road to.Perdition was far superior, with an actual story to tell rather than a moral sermon about the artificial paradises of modern life and consumerism.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote:
    American Beauty is not a bad movie, but it is very overrated and maybe the.most undeserving movie to ever win an.Oscar. it is a good student project lifted up by great actors, filled with unsubtle dialogues that are statement more than actual... Dialogues. Road to.Perdition was far superior, with an actual story to tell rather than a moral sermon about the artificial paradises of modern life and consumerism.

    A bit harsh I think. The Insider from the same year was a better movie. But I think American Beauty was as deserving as most others. I mean, who really thinks The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King deserved a best picture Oscar? It's a total bore fest. The King's Speech was another dubious winner IMO. A perfectly solid movie, but nothing spectacular at all. The Social Network is superior on practically every level, but lost out to the Brit period drama plodder.
  • Posts: 908
    Getafix wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    GF is certainly in my top 5 but it is somewhat dated shall I say (compared to some of the later entries though its nothing). Connery and Blackman are both great, the first half hour is classic Bond, but to be honest Goldfinger has never really wowed me as a main villain. I actually prefer the silent but deadly Oddjob.

    I think it's the caricature gangsters that stick out for me. That whole "EXCEPT CRIME" speech feels pretty cheesy by today's standards.

    Also lets not forget the wonderful performance by Tilly Masterson:

    "Let me go, you're breaking my back" :))

    I prefer Skyfall by a small margin.

    Respect for having GF in your top 5. I think part of the point about the villains is that Oddjob and Goldfinger compliment each other. I actually love Gert Frobe's performance (even if he was dubbed) and Harold Sakata is brilliantly used. And it's all underpinned by some of the best Ken Adam sets and amazing Barryness. Connery is simply pitch perfect throughout and as you say @BAIN, the pairing with Blackman is inspired. I actually feel sorry for those who think it's overrated.
    Oh, and the REAL DB5...

    Frankly, the list of amazing elements is endless. And the film is still greater than the sum of its parts.

    Pffft. Spare me your condescension. Or, perhaps I should say, I feel sorry for those too obtuse to see through all the unthinking hype that attends GF.

    Loath GF and its likes all that you want, but at the end of the day it is because of films like GF and TSWLM that we still have Bond movies in the 21st-century.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Very true. In many ways the series has survived off of past glories. As the years have gone by we have got ever diminishing returns, but you still hold out for the occassional gem.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Most people, also here, love their GF. Not overrated.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Getafix wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    American Beauty is not a bad movie, but it is very overrated and maybe the.most undeserving movie to ever win an.Oscar. it is a good student project lifted up by great actors, filled with unsubtle dialogues that are statement more than actual... Dialogues. Road to.Perdition was far superior, with an actual story to tell rather than a moral sermon about the artificial paradises of modern life and consumerism.

    A bit harsh I think. The Insider from the same year was a better movie. But I think American Beauty was as deserving as most others. I mean, who really thinks The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King deserved a best picture Oscar? It's a total bore fest. The King's Speech was another dubious winner IMO. A perfectly solid movie, but nothing spectacular at all. The Social Network is superior on practically every level, but lost out to the Brit period drama plodder.

    Okay, maybe I was a bit harsh, but I still think it was a student movie that was praised for its moral(istic) message more than its intrinsic artistic values. And I loved the LOTR trilogy, but yes, other than technical achievements I don't think they deserved all the Oscars they got.

    Anyway, back on topic, overrated movies are relative and many movies are at the time of their release or soon after overrated due to circumstances. Is SF overrated? Probably. But is it THE most overrated movie of all time? There are many, many more deserving contenders.

    Thinking about it, Titanic is not in the list of this critic, which makes it very suspect in my eyes. If there is an overrated movie in the history of cinema, it is this one.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    But I don't think Titanic was overrated by critics. And who really talks about it now any way? Hardly anyone. It was a big event movie that made tons of cash. I think the critics probably treated it as the mediocre (if visually spectacular) film that it is. I think people knew what they were getting and with Cameron it's all about a big thrill ride. He delivered, but as a piece of film making, it's pretty cheesie. The Oscar acclaim was probably a bit OTT though.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    GF is certainly in my top 5 but it is somewhat dated shall I say (compared to some of the later entries though its nothing). Connery and Blackman are both great, the first half hour is classic Bond, but to be honest Goldfinger has never really wowed me as a main villain. I actually prefer the silent but deadly Oddjob.

    I think it's the caricature gangsters that stick out for me. That whole "EXCEPT CRIME" speech feels pretty cheesy by today's standards.

    Also lets not forget the wonderful performance by Tilly Masterson:

    "Let me go, you're breaking my back" :))

    I prefer Skyfall by a small margin.

    Respect for having GF in your top 5. I think part of the point about the villains is that Oddjob and Goldfinger compliment each other. I actually love Gert Frobe's performance (even if he was dubbed) and Harold Sakata is brilliantly used. And it's all underpinned by some of the best Ken Adam sets and amazing Barryness. Connery is simply pitch perfect throughout and as you say @BAIN, the pairing with Blackman is inspired. I actually feel sorry for those who think it's overrated.
    Oh, and the REAL DB5...

    Frankly, the list of amazing elements is endless. And the film is still greater than the sum of its parts.

    Pffft. Spare me your condescension. Or, perhaps I should say, I feel sorry for those too obtuse to see through all the unthinking hype that attends GF.

    Loath GF and its likes all that you want, but at the end of the day it is because of films like GF and TSWLM that we still have Bond movies in the 21st-century.

    The only Bond film I loathe is DAD and it looks like Bond has survived despite that abomination of a film. GF was the right film for the right time. It struck a cultural nerve and boosted Bond to unheard of heights of popularity. I still don't rate it in the top 10, though, let alone Best in Show.

  • Posts: 15,117
    Getafix wrote:
    But I don't think Titanic was overrated by critics. And who really talks about it now any way? Hardly anyone. It was a big event movie that made tons of cash. I think the critics probably treated it as the mediocre (if visually spectacular) film that it is. I think people knew what they were getting and with Cameron it's all about a big thrill ride. He delivered, but as a piece of film making, it's pretty cheesie. The Oscar acclaim was probably a bit OTT though.

    Hence the overrating. I guess now it is not anymore. Still, there are far more overrated movies than SF. Heck, there are far more overrated Bond movies than SF.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    But I don't think Titanic was overrated by critics. And who really talks about it now any way? Hardly anyone. It was a big event movie that made tons of cash. I think the critics probably treated it as the mediocre (if visually spectacular) film that it is. I think people knew what they were getting and with Cameron it's all about a big thrill ride. He delivered, but as a piece of film making, it's pretty cheesie. The Oscar acclaim was probably a bit OTT though.

    Hence the overrating. I guess now it is not anymore. Still, there are far more overrated movies than SF. Heck, there are far more overrated Bond movies than SF.

    Fair point - it was definitely overrated by the Oscars. I think audiences went into it eyes wide open though and new what they were getting. Few if any I think were looking for or expecting a masterpiece. The reviews for SF though led me to believe I was about to witness some previously unimagineable pinnacle in movie making when I went into the cinema. Or at the very least, a Bond film to rival the early Connery films. This is something I think it frankly didn't deliver on. Hence why I think it was overrated.

    I can see why for some people it was an improvement on QoS (although I actually think QoS is underrated and quite like it). But SF is so clearly inferior to CR, I just don't understand why it was bigged up in the way it was. As the author of the article says, there are some good scenes (the first few with Silva, for instance), but the plot and script is often all over the place. Sadly, it has the dead hand of Purvis and Wade all over it. CR avoided this by being based on Fleming and presumably some heavy rewriting from Haggis. QoS I actually think was better off for the writer's strike, as Purvis and Wade had to stand back and as a result it has a terse, stripped back quality that works quite well. To me the story and plot of SF has that lumbering, lurching stupidity that was the trademark of the Brosnan era.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

  • Posts: 15,117
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

    I would add to this that popularity is not evidence of quality. If it was the case, Pamela Anderson was the greatest actress of the 90s.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

    Both these statements exemplify why I don't rank the films. They're not necessarily comparable IMO and that's why I find the Bond canon the most intriguing in cinema. Other than the name, 'James Bond', they each represent a personal time capsule of varying ideas, concepts, motivations, aesthetics, limitations, indulgences, talent, the list is endless. They do not warrant the same level of comparison as say, the original Star Wars trilogy. They are ultimately 23 separate entities, each bringing a cocktail of ingredients that may delight, baffle, annoy, intrigue, etc. On any given day I may feel like watching one of the 23 above all others. Does that mean I find it better? No, I contemplate the ingredients that comprise the Bond cocktail I require and I choose accordingly. Overrated, underrated, best, worst, all irrelevances in the world of Bond to me.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

    I would add to this that popularity is not evidence of quality. If it was the case, Pamela Anderson was the greatest actress of the 90s.

    True. But popularity over time is a much stronger proof. And that is why FRWL, OHMSS, and as much as I hate to admit it, GF can safely be regarded as great Bond films, while the jury is still necessarily out on GE, SF and CR. I think at least one generation, say 25 years, must elapse, before we can even begin to form conclusive judgments.

  • Posts: 2,483
    RC7 wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

    Both these statements exemplify why I don't rank the films. They're not necessarily comparable IMO and that's why I find the Bond canon the most intriguing in cinema. Other than the name, 'James Bond', they each represent a personal time capsule of varying ideas, concepts, motivations, aesthetics, limitations, indulgences, talent, the list is endless. They do not warrant the same level of comparison as say, the original Star Wars trilogy. They are ultimately 23 separate entities, each bringing a cocktail of ingredients that may delight, baffle, annoy, intrigue, etc. On any given day I may feel like watching one of the 23 above all others. Does that mean I find it better? No, I contemplate the ingredients that comprise the Bond cocktail I require and I choose accordingly. Overrated, underrated, best, worst, all irrelevances in the world of Bond to me.

    That's certainly one way to approach it. Personally, I do not view each Bond film as constituting a Foucaldian episteme. Rather, I see a fair measure of commonality, overlap and idees fixe that run through the films. To my mind, Bond films are a genre unto themselves. And while MR and QOS are wildly different films, they are both identifiably Bond films.

    As for ranking, I think the tendency to rank--or not--is a personality trait as much as anything. As for myself, I'm a ranker. Always have been.

  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    I've checked the rankings thread. Every Bond film (even DIE ANOTHER DAY) is on someone's Top Five, and every film is on someone's Bottom Five. It's not safe to say that any film is clearly better than another.

    Just because one person has DAD in his top five, it does not follow that DAD is not clearly inferior to OHMSS. In a large enough statistical sample, there will always be outliers, but they do nothing to vitiate the findings of a study based upon the sample.

    I would add to this that popularity is not evidence of quality. If it was the case, Pamela Anderson was the greatest actress of the 90s.

    True. But popularity over time is a much stronger proof. And that is why FRWL, OHMSS, and as much as I hate to admit it, GF can safely be regarded as great Bond films, while the jury is still necessarily out on GE, SF and CR. I think at least one generation, say 25 years, must elapse, before we can even begin to form conclusive judgments.

    I agree. 25 years is a decent stretch of time to elapse and if the films are still regarded as great by then, it's fair to say that they are reasonably likely to retain their reputation.
  • Posts: 15,117
    And talking about time, this is why I find this list questionable to say the least. In the whole history of cinema, Skyfall is THE most overrated movie ever?
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote:
    And talking about time, this is why I find this list questionable to say the least. In the whole history of cinema, Skyfall is THE most overrated movie ever?

    It is the writers list, so I can not really care about it.

    My list is much better. ;)

  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote:
    And talking about time, this is why I find this list questionable to say the least. In the whole history of cinema, Skyfall is THE most overrated movie ever?

    Probably not the most overrated ever, but one of the most glaringly overrated in recent movie history.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    And talking about time, this is why I find this list questionable to say the least. In the whole history of cinema, Skyfall is THE most overrated movie ever?

    Yes, that's a good point. The significance of lapsed time applies to overrating/underrating as much as it does to overall quality. Let's see where SF stands in 2037--I hope I can see! Then again, we can't really expect journalists to respect strict logic any more than we can expect Internet posters to do so. All in all, no real reason to get fussed here, although I often fail to observe that dictum myself.

  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Sandy wrote:
    Thanks for the link @Grant but I couldn't disagree more with that list. There is only one film there that I say it's overrated (Million Dollar Girl) and I can't comment on a couple since I haven't watched them but others in that list are some of my favourites ever (The Departed? Inception?). It's just another guy with an opinion (and he's entitled to one, just as anybody else) who happens to have a column in a big newspaper.

    Note: Looking at his past reviews I was surprised to see that he waited until December 2913 to make a review of QoS (4*). I agree it's good but in no way better than SF and it did made me wonder even more about this guy...

    He gives quite a fair review of QoS I think and has a view of the film that I share. For me also it was the most straightforwadly, unselfconsiously enjoyable Bond movie since TLD. A breath of fresh air after the awful Brosnan era and the almost overly serious CR. 4 stars is perhaps overgenerous though.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/filmreviews/10540055/James-Bond-Quantum-of-Solace-review.html


  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Quantum was a film trying to go all indie with its obscure editing, erratic pacing, random shots and political message about the evil, nasty co-operations. It's not the worst in the series but it is undoubtably one of the most disappointing films as it tries to juggle lots of different ideas in a very short running time. CR overly serious? Yeah right. I had a far more joyful time watching that

    Not saying QOS doesn't have some strong elements but its a messy film that left me somewhat disappointed back in 2008.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Quantum was a film trying to go all indie with its obscure editing, erratic pacing and random shots. It's undoubtably one of the most disappointing films as it tries to juggle lots of different ideas in a very short running time. CR overly serious? Yeah right.

    Not saying QOS doesn't have some good elements but its a messy film that left me somewhat disappointed back in 2008.

    I felt the complete opposite. It's far from perfect, but it felt to me like the first time in a long while a Bond movie was having fun while still demonstrating a bit of class. Don't get me wrong, CR is a good film, but it has just never carried me along in the same way as QoS. It's that experience of being carried along on an enjoyable thrill ride for a couple of hours (or less!) that marks out a good Bond movie for me.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Royale is by far the better film of the two. Not saying that film is perfect either incidentally but it feels like a more rounded and completed product than Solace does. Add to that the cinematography, the story, the action and the characters. Yes some of the dialogue in the second half is ropey, but as a film it's easily the one I could (and have) watch repeatedly and enjoy.

    As much as I wanted to I've never felt "carried along" by Quantum other than appreciating the odd set or shot. The performances are good and I can see what Foster is trying to do but as a piece of escapist entertainment it just doesn't quite work for me.

    I'd rather go back and watch Moonraker in all honesty.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Royale is by far the better film of the two. Not saying that film is perfect either incidentally but it feels like a more rounded and completed product than Solace does. Add to that the cinematography, the story, the action and the characters. Yes some of the dialogue in the second half is ropey, but as a film it's easily the one I could (and have) watch repeatedly and enjoy.

    Without a doubt CR is a better film than QoS although I personally prefer QoS and have praised it multiple times. The biggest problem is that QoS is an unfinished product, I think it's part of it's charm but it doesn't help it's overall quality as a film!
  • Posts: 19,339
    CR more serious than QOS ?! :-O
  • Posts: 11,425
    Sandy wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Royale is by far the better film of the two. Not saying that film is perfect either incidentally but it feels like a more rounded and completed product than Solace does. Add to that the cinematography, the story, the action and the characters. Yes some of the dialogue in the second half is ropey, but as a film it's easily the one I could (and have) watch repeatedly and enjoy.

    Without a doubt CR is a better film than QoS although I personally prefer QoS and have praised it multiple times. The biggest problem is that QoS is an unfinished product, I think it's part of it's charm but it doesn't help it's overall quality as a film!

    I agree with @Sandy. On paper CR is the better film, but in terms of my own personal enjoyment, I prefer to watch QoS.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Quantum was a film trying to go all indie with its obscure editing, erratic pacing, random shots and political message about the evil, nasty co-operations.
    Yes, QoS does have an "indie" feel to it at times, doesn't it? It's an independent film with a very large budget. Perhaps that's why it's so polarizing.
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