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The World War II Discussion Thread.

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The propaganda machinery doesn t need further help.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,084
    I was aware that you would call this Western propaganda. Let's just agree that a war of aggression is internationally accepted as a war crime (by all UN international law treaties), and Russia acknowledged the borders of Ukraine as binding, just like the rest of the world, and still attacked it to conquer at least part of UA's territory to bring it home into "Mother" Russia. No need to get into this any further. Facts are completely clear unless one is deluded. We better not get into this any deeper, at least this is my final posting on this subject. Keep trolling if you like.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited November 2023 Posts: 18,344
    It's 90 years ago today since the fateful appointment of Adolf Hitler as German Chancellor and all the horrors including World War II and the Holocaust which flowed from it:

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/01/30/dwxa-j30.html

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    "and a wondering world awaits... what?"
    And then the video ends with the "Germany above all" part of their national anthem. How foreboding.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,084
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    "and a wondering world awaits... what?"
    And then the video ends with the "Germany above all" part of their national anthem. How foreboding.
    Let's just state this for now: "Germany above all" (Deutschland über alles) was not meant to be a chauvinistic message at the time, such as meaning "Germans are better than everyone else". Rather, it is to be interpreted as meaning that the numerous German states should join, get rid of their regional nobility and become a common nation. "From the Etsch [today, Adige river in what was Southern Tyrol] to the [Great] Belt", "from the Maas [Meuse] to the Memel" (Niemen, Njemen...whatever language one prefers) refers to the deep wish of the then progressive(!) forces to become one nation, wherever German-speaking or German-culture people lived. Maybe overreaching by today's standards. But at the time, it was what would today be considered the leftists who rooted for it.

    It was the Nazis who perverted this yearning for a common nation for their purposes by turning "Deutschland über alles" to mean that Germany should reign above all other nations. And it is not surprising that today's Germany does not consider the first stanza of the "Deutschlandlied" (however harmless it may seem in context) its national anthem, but only its third stanza: "Unity and law and freedom/For the German fatherland/That's what we should all strive for/Brotherly with heart and hand" etc. Let's don't get into the discussion whether "fatherland" and "brotherly" fit into today's politically correct discussion, but we'll doubtless see more of that as well.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    "and a wondering world awaits... what?"
    And then the video ends with the "Germany above all" part of their national anthem. How foreboding.
    Let's just state this for now: "Germany above all" (Deutschland über alles) was not meant to be a chauvinistic message at the time, such as meaning "Germans are better than everyone else". Rather, it is to be interpreted as meaning that the numerous German states should join, get rid of their regional nobility and become a common nation. "From the Etsch [today, Adige river in what was Southern Tyrol] to the [Great] Belt", "from the Maas [Meuse] to the Memel" (Niemen, Njemen...whatever language one prefers) refers to the deep wish of the then progressive(!) forces to become one nation, wherever German-speaking or German-culture people lived. Maybe overreaching by today's standards. But at the time, it was what would today be considered the leftists who rooted for it.

    It was the Nazis who perverted this yearning for a common nation for their purposes by turning "Deutschland über alles" to mean that Germany should reign above all other nations. And it is not surprising that today's Germany does not consider the first stanza of the "Deutschlandlied" (however harmless it may seem in context) its national anthem, but only its third stanza: "Unity and law and freedom/For the German fatherland/That's what we should all strive for/Brotherly with heart and hand" etc. Let's don't get into the discussion whether "fatherland" and "brotherly" fit into today's politically correct discussion, but we'll doubtless see more of that as well.

    Don't worry, I'm not here to woke-over history. But, as you said, it was the NAZI ideology that abused the (already controversial) stanza. But as we were talking about AH's ascent, I thought that to indeed feel omnious.
    And then there's that rather wide interpretation of where German people live(d). The Maas/Muse runs through France, Belgium and into the Netherlands. The Memel through Latvia and Belarus (hence incorporating Poland into Germany), and the Adige finally runs through Italy. All in all, rather... imperialistic.
    Still, the song is pretty good. I can imagine why they stuck with the melody.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,084
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    Still, the song is pretty good. I can imagine why they stuck with the melody.
    Well, yes... it's from Joseph Haydn's "Emperor" quartet....
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    Still, the song is pretty good. I can imagine why they stuck with the melody.
    Well, yes... it's from Joseph Haydn's "Emperor" quartet....

    Really? Didn't know. Will check out the rest of it!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,084
    Really. :-)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2023 Posts: 18,344
    The German national anthem has to be one of the most beautiful themes of any national anthem I've ever heard. It's far superior to the British national anthem, for instance. Ironically, Germany's old national anthem used to have the same music as our British national anthem until it was decided to change it.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited February 2023 Posts: 9,084
    AFAIK (not checking before I write this), the Haydn tune had also been used before as the Austrian national anthem. Instead of "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (then) or "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (now) the text was "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" ("God save Emperor Franz").

    Interesting also: After unification, some people suggested establishing a new German national anthem as a mixture of the West German and East German anthems. It was discovered that the words of the East German anthem could be sung to the tune of the West German one and, of course, vice versa. "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (FedRep) vs. "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (GDR). Anyway, it never came about. Not least because the East German words were never sung since the early fifties because they mentioned "Deutschland, einig Vaterland" (Germany, united fatherland).

    But yes, I'm happy we do not have a national anthem that has this belligerent touch and which is not a marching tune. Unlike "the rockets' red glare" and "le jour de gloire est arrivé".
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    AFAIK (not checking before I write this), the Haydn tune had also been used before as the Austrian national anthem. Instead of "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (then) or "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (now) the text was "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" ("God save Emperor Franz").

    Interesting also: After unification, some people suggested establishing a new German national anthem as a mixture of the West German and East German anthems. It was discovered that the words of the East German anthem could be sung to the tune of the West German one and, of course, vice versa. "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (FedRep) vs. "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (GDR). Anyway, it never came about. Not least because the East German words were never sung since the early fifties because they mentioned "Deutschland, einig Vaterland" (Germany, united fatherland).

    But yes, I'm happy we do not have a national anthem that has this belligerent touch and which is not a marching tune. Unlike "the rockets' red glare" and "le jour de gloire est arrivé".

    I don't know, that song always reminds me of the French in the film 'Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines'. It feels quite fitting.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,344
    Adolf Hitler's Munich or Beer Hall Putsch took place exactly 100 years ago on 8-9 November 1923:

    https://www.dw.com/en/100-years-on-germany-looks-back-at-hitlers-coup-attempt/a-67331669
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited November 2023 Posts: 18,344
    Mark Felton - The Beer Hall Putsch 100th Anniversary Special:

  • shimplyshocking007shimplyshocking007
    Posts: 131
  • shimplyshocking007shimplyshocking007
    Posts: 131
    Masters of the Air. Some episodes directed by Cary Fukunaga.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    I'd love to see it obviously, but the obvious CGI and unrealistic speeds do dissapoint quite a bit. They did it better with The Battle Of Britain.
  • jobojobo
    edited November 2023 Posts: 7,507
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    AFAIK (not checking before I write this), the Haydn tune had also been used before as the Austrian national anthem. Instead of "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (then) or "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (now) the text was "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" ("God save Emperor Franz").

    Interesting also: After unification, some people suggested establishing a new German national anthem as a mixture of the West German and East German anthems. It was discovered that the words of the East German anthem could be sung to the tune of the West German one and, of course, vice versa. "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (FedRep) vs. "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (GDR). Anyway, it never came about. Not least because the East German words were never sung since the early fifties because they mentioned "Deutschland, einig Vaterland" (Germany, united fatherland).

    But yes, I'm happy we do not have a national anthem that has this belligerent touch and which is not a marching tune. Unlike "the rockets' red glare" and "le jour de gloire est arrivé".

    The Haydn theme was written for the then emperor of Austria-Hungary. It was not the national anthem, but "the emperor's song".

    It also makes up the beautiful second movement of the "Kaizer Quartet" he wrote around the same time, a piece I have had the pleasure of performing on many occations.



    It is said to have been performed heavily during the Napoleanic Wars as a piece of comfort when the Austrian's were humiliated on the battlefield.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 11 Posts: 18,344
    Weird Private Photos of Hitler:

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