"You Can't Win..." - Goldeneye 25 Project is ceased by MGM

2

Comments

  • Posts: 9,939

    They’re within their rights, yes. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not being litigious. Something can be well within your rights to do and still be an indecent thing to do.

    Agreed
  • Posts: 632
    Risico007 wrote: »

    Agreed

    Agreed too.

    But we are fans, and we see things differently from businesses. Businesses aren’t fans, they are businesses. They see things differently.

    We think “we’ll if it’s not hurting anybody, why should it be shut down?”

    But businesses tend to think, “it’s our legal intellectual property, we paid a lot of money for it, and so our permission needs to be asked prior to the start of any project that uses that intellectual property, and if they haven’t asked us then we have a duty to shut them down, because otherwise it sends a message that we are happy with people using our intellectual property without our permission and without paying us for the property that we paid good money for, and we don’t want to send people that message, so we have no other choice”

    That’s how businesses tend to think
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,854

    They’re within their rights, yes. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not being litigious.

    Yeah it does, because they're not taking legal action. The very opposite of litigious, in fact.
    Something can be well within your rights to do and still be an indecent thing to do.

    Indecent? Yeah, okaaaay...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,854

    Agreed too.

    But we are fans, and we see things differently from businesses. Businesses aren’t fans, they are businesses. They see things differently.

    We think “we’ll if it’s not hurting anybody, why should it be shut down?”

    But businesses tend to think, “it’s our legal intellectual property, we paid a lot of money for it, and so our permission needs to be asked prior to the start of any project that uses that intellectual property, and if they haven’t asked us then we have a duty to shut them down, because otherwise it sends a message that we are happy with people using our intellectual property without our permission and without paying us for the property that we paid good money for, and we don’t want to send people that message, so we have no other choice”

    That’s how businesses tend to think

    It's also how their licensees, who have paid lots of money to the licence owner to use their brand, will think too.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited August 2020 Posts: 16,384
    Garry's Mod alone.
    Speaking of Garry's Mod, A fan made HD Pierce Brosnan remastered mod I helped work on has been released recently. We recreated most of his iconic outfits and threw in some new original ones. Here's a small taste on what's in the pack.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2173680125

    qnJzFkF.png
    BFCsMiI.png
    2XfcOq0.png
    PCJK6P0.png





  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    mtm wrote: »

    Yeah it does, because they're not taking legal action. The very opposite of litigious, in fact.

    Indecent? Yeah, okaaaay...

    I’m not sure in what world a lawyer issuing a cease and desist order isn’t a form of legal action, but okay.
    And yes, treating your fans this way is indecent.
  • Posts: 12,654
    It's a real shame GoldenEye 64 isn't legally available on any other systems beyond the N64. Real classic, fun game - particularly the multiplayer of course. And the soundtrack is FANTASTIC!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,457
    I would love to play GE Source, but does it have similar music as GE 25? Just wondering...
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I would love to play GE Source, but does it have similar music as GE 25? Just wondering...

    Yes, Yannick did music for both.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2020 Posts: 17,854

    I’m not sure in what world a lawyer issuing a cease and desist order isn’t a form of legal action, but okay.

    In the way the word 'litigious' literally refers to court action and lawsuits, of which nothing of the kind is happening here. Calling them litigious is 100% incorrect.
    They were 'kindly asked' not to continue.
    And yes, treating your fans this way is indecent.

    Mad.

    What are you actually talking about, out of interest? What would be the decent way to act? What would you think the decent way to act would be if you were one of their licensees who had paid an awful lot of money to use the brand?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,854
    Murdock wrote: »
    Speaking of Garry's Mod, A fan made HD Pierce Brosnan remastered mod I helped work on has been released recently. We recreated most of his iconic outfits and threw in some new original ones. Here's a small taste on what's in the pack.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2173680125

    qnJzFkF.png
    BFCsMiI.png
    2XfcOq0.png
    PCJK6P0.png





    These are brilliant fun :)
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It's a real shame GoldenEye 64 isn't legally available on any other systems beyond the N64. Real classic, fun game - particularly the multiplayer of course. And the soundtrack is FANTASTIC!

    I think if I played it again it would need to be on that controller though! I'm sure there are probbaly modern replicas.

    What would be quite good would be one of those sort of novelty things where you buy a retro controller and the game and hardware is actually contained within the controller and you just plug it into your TV to play- have they managed an N64 version of that yet? Maybe they'll do that at some point if they haven't yet.
  • Posts: 12,654
    mtm wrote: »

    These are brilliant fun :)

    I think if I played it again it would need to be on that controller though! I'm sure there are probbaly modern replicas.

    What would be quite good would be one of those sort of novelty things where you buy a retro controller and the game and hardware is actually contained within the controller and you just plug it into your TV to play- have they managed an N64 version of that yet? Maybe they'll do that at some point if they haven't yet.

    Yes - I use the Brawler64 controller on my N64, which is the best N64 controller I've ever across. It's both way more modern but faithful to how N64 gameplay should be.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575

    Agreed too.

    But we are fans, and we see things differently from businesses. Businesses aren’t fans, they are businesses. They see things differently.

    We think “we’ll if it’s not hurting anybody, why should it be shut down?”

    But businesses tend to think, “it’s our legal intellectual property, we paid a lot of money for it, and so our permission needs to be asked prior to the start of any project that uses that intellectual property, and if they haven’t asked us then we have a duty to shut them down, because otherwise it sends a message that we are happy with people using our intellectual property without our permission and without paying us for the property that we paid good money for, and we don’t want to send people that message, so we have no other choice”

    That’s how businesses tend to think

    And EON has been super protective of their properties since Day 1.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    mtm wrote: »

    In the way the word 'litigious' literally refers to court action and lawsuits, of which nothing of the kind is happening here. Calling them litigious is 100% incorrect.
    They were 'kindly asked' not to continue.

    Mad.

    What are you actually talking about, out of interest? What would be the decent way to act? What would you think the decent way to act would be if you were one of their licensees who had paid an awful lot of money to use the brand?

    Issuing a cease and desist is threatening to sue someone if they don’t stop doing what they’re currently doing. So threatening to sue someone if they don’t do what you want is somehow not litigious?

    Licensees in the past had to pay to use the Bond brand because they were producing games for profit. If you’re going to make money off of Bond of course you’ll pay a license fee. The decent way for a company to behave in this situation would be to allow a harmless, non-profit fan project to continue; the way good companies like SEGA and Valve do. They’ve even gone so far as to work with fans on their game projects. There’s a different, better, way for companies to behave that has been set forth SEGA, Valve, and a few others. Just because it’s not a model that most companies follow doesn’t mean that they can’t follow it. They choose not to, and they should be held to account for their anti-consumer behavior.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575
    MGM isn’t obligated to behave like Sega. They don’t owe us fans anything.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2020 Posts: 17,854

    Issuing a cease and desist is threatening to sue someone if they don’t stop doing what they’re currently doing. So threatening to sue someone if they don’t do what you want is somehow not litigious?

    They haven't sued them. Litigation is defined as the 'the act of bringing a process in a court of law'. You're wrong. Move on.
    Licensees in the past had to pay to use the Bond brand because they were producing games for profit. If you’re going to make money off of Bond of course you’ll pay a license fee.

    There are many licensees beyond games manufacturers.
    The decent way for a company to behave in this situation would be to allow a harmless, non-profit fan project to continue; the way good companies like SEGA and Valve do.

    It's also to do with managing the brand. They choose what it's aligned with and how: that's how you control a brand. This is a very professional-looking product and could create confusion. It's entirely up to them how they control their own property. It's not decided by fans whining because they want something nice.
    They’ve even gone so far as to work with fans on their game projects. There’s a different, better, way for companies to behave that has been set forth SEGA, Valve, and a few others. Just because it’s not a model that most companies follow doesn’t mean that they can’t follow it. They choose not to, and they should be held to account for their anti-consumer behavior.

    Okay, well feel free to boycott all of their movies in future. That'll show them for not letting you have something they never agreed you could have in the first place.

    Or we could all just be grown-ups about it.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384
    Maybe Activision will announce 007 Legends 2 and insert Craig's Bond into 5 more Bond movies he wasn't in. =))
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2020 Posts: 17,854
    Murdock wrote: »
    Maybe Activision will announce 007 Legends 2 and insert Craig's Bond into 5 more Bond movies he wasn't in. =))

    Yeah I wanted to like that, but once you've removed all of the memorable production design and replaced the actors' likenesses with bland computer characters you've made it no longer based on Bond films any more and created something much blander.
    Is that one that Craig himself didn't do?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384
    mtm wrote: »

    Yeah I wanted to like that, but once you've removed all of the memorable production design and replaced the actors' likenesses with bland computer characters you've made it no longer based on Bond films any more and created something much blander.
    Is that one that Craig himself didn't do?

    Yeah the only positive I can give that game are the characters they recreated from the films with the right likenesses. And yes, Craig didn't voice Bond in it. Though I think he did voice Bond in the Skyfall DLC but I can't remember.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575
    IMO there hasn’t been a memorable Bond game since GE. It’s the only one to exceed “this was alright”, and even then it was just a FPS with Bond coating. If Bond games return in the future I’d like more stealth and less shoot em ups.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384
    I know this isn't the right thread for it but I'd love a remake of the 1998 James Bond 007 game boy game. It's probably the most unique and obscure Bond game as it trades in shoot em up for an exploration adventure. Much like a Legend of Zelda game but with Bond.
  • Posts: 17,924
    I'm not a video game player myself, so I can't comment on SEGA etc, and how they treat their brands and properties. But we know EON to be very protective in the way they manage the brand (as mentioned by @mtm). Anything that can create the slightest of confusion, they'll make sure to shut down.

    Why would EON, who we BTW know to almost exclusively licence products that comes at a premium (Orlebar Brown for example), want a free to play game with their property used, to be created? At some point we might see a Goldeneye remake, or not. But EON sure won't want a free alternative out there.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575
    I always felt Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater was the best Bond game that isn’t a Bond game. More spy work and intrigue.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited August 2020 Posts: 3,000
    mtm wrote: »

    They haven't sued them. Litigation is defined as the 'the act of bringing a process in a court of law'. You're wrong. Move on.

    There are many licensees beyond games manufacturers.

    It's also to do with managing the brand. They choose what it's aligned with and how: that's how you control a brand. This is a very professional-looking product and could create confusion. It's entirely up to them how they control their own property. It's not decided by fans whining because they want something nice.

    Okay, well feel free to boycott all of their movies in future. That'll show them for not letting you have something they never agreed you could have in the first place.

    Or we could all just be grown-ups about it.

    Litigious is defined as “unreasonably prone to go to law to settle disputes” which would encompass both the act of suing, and threatening to sue. Quibbling over the difference between suing, and making it known that you will sue if the cease and desist order isn’t followed, is purely pedantic as both are anti-consumer practices.

    All those other licensees are also for profit, and therefore can be reasonably expected to pay a fee to make money off of Bond. This was a harmless non-profit project.

    And yes, it is about managing a brand, something that SEGA, Valve, and others do in a much more consumer friendly way. I’ve never said that this wasn’t in MGM’s rights to do. And I’ve never called for a boycott. It certainly is their right. It would also be their right to go on this site, on YouTube, and on other sites and copyright strike every bit of fan art, every fan script, every Bond compilation video and anything else that they could argue doesn’t fall under “fair use.” They don’t because they are at least that consumer friendly, which I applaud them for. But if they did, would we sit by and defend their right to do that, or would we call it an indecent way to treat your fans? MGM has been rather consumer friendly in many ways, but I contend that they could learn for other, more consumer friendly companies.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384
    Reminds me of what happened to the fan game Stage 9 that was a recreation of the Enterprise D from Star Trek the next generation. CBS shut it down. Luckily the devs went on to make The Orville Interactive Fan Experience and Fox along with Seth McFarlane gave them their blessing.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575
    I remember when an older iteration of this forum would not allow avatar uploads as a way of preventing the use of EON copyright material uploaded, because MI6 once got in trouble over using copyrighted images or something. Things have obviously laxed over time. Still, nothing compared to making a full fledged video game using EON properties free for everyone to play.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited August 2020 Posts: 14,144
    Murdock wrote: »
    Maybe Activision will announce 007 Legends 2 and insert Craig's Bond into 5 more Bond movies he wasn't in. =))

    Activision be like:

    758726705ea4642024e9cb62ac31e176.gif

    Would they even notice? Their coffers must be overflowing thanks to COD.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,384

    Activision be like:

    758726705ea4642024e9cb62ac31e176.gif

    Would they even notice? Their coffers must be overflowing thanks to COD.

    They can save the money they burn using this fake cover I made 8 years ago as the official cover. :))
    HlYv0Msl.png
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,144
    Murdock wrote: »

    They can save the money they burn using this fake cover I made 8 years ago as the official cover. :))
    HlYv0Msl.png

    That's actually a good cover, too good for Activision.

    I still haven't played 007 Legends. One of these days I should pick a copy up and try it for myself.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,575
    I never played BLOOD STONE, was that at least decent?
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