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Comments
I guess the thing about the fall is, it's cinematic. I agree there's no way he should have survived it, but if he'd just plopped into a river ten foot below that would be a bit dull. It's okay for other characters but needs to be a bit more operatic for Bond himself. Plus Even needs to not be able to get to him.
People have fallen out of planes and survived.
Ok ok fair enough. I'll reign it in.
Apologies.
The Fleming novels worked in part because that era, the early decades of the Cold War, lent itself to the formation of an evil organization.
It doesn't work the same way today. "Evil" organizations are more clandestine, and really made up of few people, pulling the reins, manipulating institutions for their financial benefit. QoS got it. SP didn't. (I really bristled at all the
The only issue I see is Bond's cold/callous handling (or lack thereof) of Severine's death.
Yes indeed, into water though? I thought that's basically like hitting concrete.
I don't mind at all though- it's a movie. I still have absolutely zero problem with Indiana Jones getting into that fridge!
:)
It's an odd moment, I think mostly because it's not really clear to the audience what's going on: is he being callous to throw his captors off guard or does he actually believe it? How are we supposed to feel about it? And before we get a chance to think about it the film has moved on to Bond turning the tables and capturing Silva. I think it's a bit of a directorial fumble just there.
I have no problem with the "waste of good scotch" line, which indeed is to throw them off. But after the helicopters arrive, I would have liked to have seen him at least glance in her direction or check her pulse. Or maybe after they arrive back at MI6 we see him being briefed about who she is and that she will be flown to a resting place and Bond gives instructions regarding how the body should be handled. Something.
Good point. I took it that Bond was pretending not to be bothered by Severine’s death (much like Fleming’s books). But I have no proof of this, just my own take.
It could be seen either way, as you say. The tone and direction isn’t clear.
I remember at the cinema, some people were already getting up thinking the film ended when the helicopters arrived and the theme blared. Anyway, that was too convenient of a resolution - I agree that there should've been better closure for Severine's death.
Also, wasn't there a deleted scene between Bond and Silva on the plane back to England? Does anyone know if it was filmed, or was just in story boards?
Yeah true; it's very similar to Solange in CR, but with her you do get a feeling that Bond regrets her death even though he doesn't actually say much to the contrary- the film gives you enough information to know that he's leaving it unsaid. Here it's a bit too fuzzy.
Never heard of that before, sounds interesting. I guess they don't really speak again until the frozen lake.
Yes. I would say Bond was troubled deeply by the deaths of both Solange and Fields. I have argued in the past that Bond is not the misogynist some critics think he is.
I think maybe not being entirely un-upset that a woman has died violently and horribly doesn't completely let someone off being a misogynist though- you don't have to take pleasure in the deaths of females to be one! :)
I do get what you mean and I don't disagree 100%, and yet I think in places Craig's Bond is maybe a bit more of a misogynist than Brosnan's was. But not all of the time, he is at least a slightly complex character.
Not in the slightest. I can accept that it's objectively well made in a lot of areas, even if it's ranked 23 for me. I couldn't care less how other people feel about a given film or product, it won't detract from my enjoyment (or lack thereof).
Where can we find your ranking?
It could use some tweaking, this list is from a little over a year ago, but as of the last ranking:
New 2019 Ranking:
1. GE
2. OHMSS
3. QOS
4. DN
5. CR
6. YOLT
7. FYEO
8. LALD
9. GF
10. OP
11. AVTAK
12. TSWLM
13. FRWL
14. MR
15. TWINE
16. TB
17. LTK
18. DAD
19. DAF
20. TMWTGG
21. TND
22. TLD
23. SF
24. SP
I figured as much. Hopefully we have some that align.
I take it your bottom four equals the entire Brosnan era?
It used to be that way, but I place DAD and TND a little below the middle now. Bottom four are TLD, GE, LALD and TWINE. And sure, we have some that pretty much align . I also have OHMSS, QOS and DN in my top five. As for SF, which this thread is about after all, it is just outside my top ten.
22. DAD
23. TND
24. TWINE
GE is like #8 or something.
I don't dislike DAD, it's got plenty I like. The two below it, however, I haven't seen in many years and have little reason to want to revisit them.
As for Craig's run:
3. SF
5. CR
15. SF
19. QOS
5. GE
13. TND
15. TWINE
21. DAD
For Craig:
4. CR
9. SF
18. QoS
20. SP
There is no "objectivity scale". All of this is subjective. I consider SP the second-best Bond film for myself, but have absolutely no problem with you ranking it as the second-worst. There's no accounting for personal taste. I mean, even with this kind of disagreement we're not on a, say, Stanley Kubrick vs. Ed Wood level.
Well obviously, hence my comment. My only point was that from an objective stance, it'd be quite obvious why most would have DAD at the very bottom.
Of course everyone's list is subjective and based on personal preference and enjoyment, and I don't ever take issue with anyone's list. As I've stated previously, it's fun to compare rankings but I don't take it personally if someone loves a film I don't care for or vice versa. I couldn't care less about that stuff and find it funny when some do.
Yeah I think TWINE is a better made film, and yet I find it really quite dull and joyless. DAD at least thunders along like a stupid bouncy puppy.
I was watching a few of the older Bonds in lockdown, and then I stuck on TWINE randomly, and that opening in the banker's office is such a shock when you've been watching some of the classier Connerys and Moores. He's just sat in a boring-looking grey ordinary room, in an overcast boring city, being photographed like it's on TV, saying dull things with very poor dialogue, in a weird situation that suddenly turns violent for no apparent reason, and then he has a really quite uninteresting escape while the Bond theme is playing, desperately trying to assure you that this is Bondy and exciting. If you watch something like the opening to even TMWTGG and switch suddenly to this, it's like all the wit and verve and class has drained out of the Bond films in front of your eyes. I was really surprised how offended I was by it! :D
I always love a good TWINE bashing since I really find that film inferior among the contenders, but the Bilbao scenes are IMO a good start (the "highlight") of a movie that keeps descending into camp and lack of logic and basically stupidity, only surpassed (or should that be sous-passed?) by its successor in being at the bottom of the franchise.