Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • MeanwhileMeanwhile Brooklyn
    Posts: 34
    Watching this very moment…

    and although I kinda liked and understand the idea behind Judi’s cameo, you have to wonder —

    During the events of Skyfall, when she begins to fully realize the danger she’s in (perhaps even right before or after Silva hacks her laptop with the YouTube video), she records a cryptic 20 second video telling Bond to go assassinate someone and “don’t miss the funeral” - and he does it without batting an eyebrow?

    And then, even though the new M earned his trust at the end of the previous film, he purposefully keeps this from him just so the writers can set up tension between them?

    Not to mention, this implies that somehow M is aware of SPECTRE and knows of Bond’s connection to Oberhauser… and does nothing except record this damn webcam video?

    This is one of the film’s myriad problems for me, despite it’s beautiful & slick presentation and some highlights that actually do fulfil the promise of what makes Craig’s tenure so great.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Ryan1991 wrote: »
    TheBondFan wrote: »
    One of the issues with SP that I do not see brought up enough is that the villain's plan is not remotely engaging since the "9-eyes" program already exists in real life, down to the name itself: https://protonvpn.com/blog/5-eyes-global-surveillance/

    That's very true! Even his motives for developing it are never really made clear.

    It’s made clear that SPECTRE is about rigging the system in their favor to make them rich. If they can have access and manipulate the government from within via Nine Eyes then they’ll hit the jackpot. It also serves as a nice update on Fleming’s background of Blofeld making money by having access to vital info during the war, selling secrets, etc.
  • There are scenes in SP that I really like, but the one thing that still really bugs me is the moment after the very nasty torture scene, where Bond is 100% recovered, and shooting away at the bad guys.

    It takes away all the attempt at realism that was started in CR, and loosely followed in QoS and SF, where Bond feels pain and recovers.
  • There are scenes in SP that I really like, but the one thing that still really bugs me is the moment after the very nasty torture scene, where Bond is 100% recovered, and shooting away at the bad guys.

    It takes away all the attempt at realism that was started in CR, and loosely followed in QoS and SF, where Bond feels pain and recovers.

    MI6 really missed a trick in Skyfall when they needed to get Bond back in shape after he came back from his 3-month bender. Instead of making him do pull-ups and take psych evals, they should have just drilled holes in his head and he'd have been good to go.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Agreed @jetsetwilly that was almost as bad as the heart attack sudden recovery from DIE ANOTHER DAY.
  • Meanwhile wrote: »
    Watching this very moment…

    and although I kinda liked and understand the idea behind Judi’s cameo, you have to wonder —

    During the events of Skyfall, when she begins to fully realize the danger she’s in (perhaps even right before or after Silva hacks her laptop with the YouTube video), she records a cryptic 20 second video telling Bond to go assassinate someone and “don’t miss the funeral” - and he does it without batting an eyebrow?

    And then, even though the new M earned his trust at the end of the previous film, he purposefully keeps this from him just so the writers can set up tension between them?

    Not to mention, this implies that somehow M is aware of SPECTRE and knows of Bond’s connection to Oberhauser… and does nothing except record this damn webcam video?

    This is one of the film’s myriad problems for me, despite it’s beautiful & slick presentation and some highlights that actually do fulfil the promise of what makes Craig’s tenure so great.

    Yes, another excellent point. Instead of saying he was "taking some overdue holiday", he could have just laid out what he was doing and perhaps get M to, if not fully sanction it, loosen Bond's leash a-la Moonraker. Imagine the resources Q would be able to provide, perhaps a car with ammunition?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    TheBondFan wrote: »
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    Watching this very moment…

    and although I kinda liked and understand the idea behind Judi’s cameo, you have to wonder —

    During the events of Skyfall, when she begins to fully realize the danger she’s in (perhaps even right before or after Silva hacks her laptop with the YouTube video), she records a cryptic 20 second video telling Bond to go assassinate someone and “don’t miss the funeral” - and he does it without batting an eyebrow?

    And then, even though the new M earned his trust at the end of the previous film, he purposefully keeps this from him just so the writers can set up tension between them?

    Not to mention, this implies that somehow M is aware of SPECTRE and knows of Bond’s connection to Oberhauser… and does nothing except record this damn webcam video?

    This is one of the film’s myriad problems for me, despite it’s beautiful & slick presentation and some highlights that actually do fulfil the promise of what makes Craig’s tenure so great.

    Yes, another excellent point. Instead of saying he was "taking some overdue holiday", he could have just laid out what he was doing and perhaps get M to, if not fully sanction it, loosen Bond's leash a-la Moonraker. Imagine the resources Q would be able to provide, perhaps a car with ammunition?

    Made clear later in the film--C and by extension Spectre were watching everything at MI6. Bond revealing the details to M would have shut them both down from the start.

    There's a reason Bond doesn't report every detail, its a big part of what makes him useful.

  • SPECTRE looking to get hold of every piece of information made sense, but I could never get my head around their intentions. Blofeld's claim of bring a visionary suggested he was working towards an ideal goal - the whole quote about destruction leading to beauty - but at other times he just seemed to be no more than an international criminal kingpin looking for profit.
  • Posts: 2,163
    Ryan1991 wrote: »
    SPECTRE looking to get hold of every piece of information made sense, but I could never get my head around their intentions. Blofeld's claim of bring a visionary suggested he was working towards an ideal goal - the whole quote about destruction leading to beauty - but at other times he just seemed to be no more than an international criminal kingpin looking for profit.

    Exactly. If it were a case of “as soon as we get full control of Nine Eyes we will shut governments out and launch attacks on them” or something greater than just Bond stopping the system from launching fully.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I believe that the notion of Blofeld being basically a petty, envious person that believes to be a genius and a criminal visionary but in the end ends up being just a loser that always fails against his better “blue eyed curse” is fascinating and quite respectful of Fleming’s portrait in a lot of ways.
  • Bad_TigerBad_Tiger Somewhere over Kansas
    Posts: 12
    There are scenes in SP that I really like, but the one thing that still really bugs me is the moment after the very nasty torture scene, where Bond is 100% recovered, and shooting away at the bad guys.

    It takes away all the attempt at realism that was started in CR, and loosely followed in QoS and SF, where Bond feels pain and recovers.

    That's a scene that's always stuck in my craw. With just a small adjustment, it could have been a great character-building moment. Imagine Bond still disoriented and dizzy after torture, trying to escape with Madeleine, and Madeleine being forced to steady Bond's gun arm and be his "aim" while shooting at the bad guys. He sees the conflicting emotions on her face -- the terror of the situation, her devastation at being forced to take lives and becoming what her father was -- and it's one of the factors that makes him realize he wants out of this life, and to protect her.

    [By the way: My first post! Long-time lurker, happy to join the fray.]
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 822
    TheBondFan wrote: »
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    Watching this very moment…

    and although I kinda liked and understand the idea behind Judi’s cameo, you have to wonder —

    During the events of Skyfall, when she begins to fully realize the danger she’s in (perhaps even right before or after Silva hacks her laptop with the YouTube video), she records a cryptic 20 second video telling Bond to go assassinate someone and “don’t miss the funeral” - and he does it without batting an eyebrow?

    And then, even though the new M earned his trust at the end of the previous film, he purposefully keeps this from him just so the writers can set up tension between them?

    Not to mention, this implies that somehow M is aware of SPECTRE and knows of Bond’s connection to Oberhauser… and does nothing except record this damn webcam video?

    This is one of the film’s myriad problems for me, despite it’s beautiful & slick presentation and some highlights that actually do fulfil the promise of what makes Craig’s tenure so great.

    Yes, another excellent point. Instead of saying he was "taking some overdue holiday", he could have just laid out what he was doing and perhaps get M to, if not fully sanction it, loosen Bond's leash a-la Moonraker. Imagine the resources Q would be able to provide, perhaps a car with ammunition?

    Made clear later in the film--C and by extension Spectre were watching everything at MI6. Bond revealing the details to M would have shut them both down from the start.

    There's a reason Bond doesn't report every detail, its a big part of what makes him useful.

    "Hey, Moneypenny, when you come by my place tonight, bring M, will you? I have a convenient videoclip that will blow your minds" would solve that problem. Considering the lengths M is going through to keep Bond in London, I'm not sure not reporting on what he's up to is the best idea here.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I’ve just watched it for the first time in ages in readiness for NTTD.

    I think actually the first half is great. As with many bond films I can pinpoint the exact moment it falls apart.

    The scene in La Merican. The pace suddenly becomes glacial and I just don’t understand how mr white would be able to create a secret room in a bed and breakfast. Surely the owners would notice.
  • I've found that the more I come back to it, the earlier it falls apart for me. It used to be that I at least mostly enjoyed it up through the train fight, but after many viewings, I am more and more bothered by all the issues starting from the yellow dots of the gunbarrel. I've never had a Bond film plummet down my rankings so quickly and so far. I have trouble ranking the films, but I have no trouble saying that SP is at the very bottom of my list.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I'll be getting to SP in my Bondathon in about a week, curious to see how it plays for me after having actively avoided it for over two and a half years.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Ryan1991 wrote: »
    SPECTRE looking to get hold of every piece of information made sense, but I could never get my head around their intentions. Blofeld's claim of bring a visionary suggested he was working towards an ideal goal - the whole quote about destruction leading to beauty - but at other times he just seemed to be no more than an international criminal kingpin looking for profit.

    Isn’t that what he’s always been? Every scheme has been about trying to make a profit, with the exception of OHMSS which was for Blofeld’s amnesty (though with all the entitlements of a Count).
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    matt_u wrote: »
    I believe that the notion of Blofeld being basically a petty, envious person that believes to be a genius and a criminal visionary but in the end ends up being just a loser that always fails against his better “blue eyed curse” is fascinating and quite respectful of Fleming’s portrait in a lot of ways.

    +1! I see a lot of Fleming's YOLT Blofeld in Waltz. Downplaying the degree to which Bond has been an irritant, having a sort of mythological connection to the hero. Obviously it may be odd to take that route in Waltz's first film, but I see more discernable Fleming in him than in the other incarnations.
  • Bad_Tiger wrote: »
    There are scenes in SP that I really like, but the one thing that still really bugs me is the moment after the very nasty torture scene, where Bond is 100% recovered, and shooting away at the bad guys.

    It takes away all the attempt at realism that was started in CR, and loosely followed in QoS and SF, where Bond feels pain and recovers.

    That's a scene that's always stuck in my craw. With just a small adjustment, it could have been a great character-building moment. Imagine Bond still disoriented and dizzy after torture, trying to escape with Madeleine, and Madeleine being forced to steady Bond's gun arm and be his "aim" while shooting at the bad guys. He sees the conflicting emotions on her face -- the terror of the situation, her devastation at being forced to take lives and becoming what her father was -- and it's one of the factors that makes him realize he wants out of this life, and to protect her.

    [By the way: My first post! Long-time lurker, happy to join the fray.]

    Welcome to MI6! What you've suggested would have been a huge improvement.
    From this moment onwards to the end of the film I have lost interest. One of the most disappointing 3rd acts of the series.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 822
    Regarding the third act, just imagine if the train scenes were broken up. The first one with Bond and Madeleine and the gun, then they get to Blofeld's base. Instead of London, have the final battle at the base with Blofeld escaping, but presumed dead. Then, after the final battle, Bond and Madeleine take the train back, and fall in love over dinner then get attacked by Hinx as a classic henchman surprise return scene.

    One could even make most of these edits using the existing film. The only part missing would be a proper battle at the base.
  • MeanwhileMeanwhile Brooklyn
    Posts: 34
    Here's a few things that I do like about the film:
    • Seeing Craig-Bond's apartment. I suppose it's fair to say that both Connery & Moore-Bond's homes fit what we know of their characters, as they play them. Craig's Bond is a minimalist, dreads being home in London most likely as Fleming wrote the character, and just needs a crash pad. The furniture he does have is nice, like that big leather arm chair. Could've done better with his TV choices than a Sony, though. ;)
    • The Q Lab scene. As the Craig films have progressed, I have been kind of refreshed by the more stale parts of the formula. Q Lab hadn't really been funny for a while, and then we got a long break from it. Craig and Wishaw have such great chemistry, and I got drawn into this return to formula. If this had been one of the only nods to the old Bond formula, I'd have been happier still.
    • Developing Madeleine — Early Scenes. We don't have toooooo much to go with for the character based on the Hoeffler Clinic scenes except that she's young, wears pantsuits and is very pissed Bond showed up. We see much more into her character, both in the writing and in her body language, once we get into the scenes at L' Americain. I know you guys hate the pace here, but I love it. I'd make it even slower if I could. Love the haunted look on Bond's face when she drunkenly toasts to "liars and killers... everywhere". This is definitely where Mendes intended to show us that Bond is beginning to rethink his "humanity".
    • Developing Madeleine — Train Scenes. Again, some great stuff here in building her character before she begins to fall flat. Love the scene where Bond attempts to show her how to use the gun and we first learn of her childhood experience. Love how the conversation begins over dinner (the peak of atmosphere in the film and the peak of their building relationship) over developing further the storyline of Bond's re-evaluation of himself. The problem here is that this fascinating scene is cut so short, but also that at this late point in the film we've really only had Bond exploring this idea twice and within only five minutes of screen time. It needed more development to show how they could fall in love with each other credibly.
    • Thomas Newman's score, when it's original. Mendes was right when he said that Newman's score for this film was more confident - it is, very much. When it's original. I don't have as much baggage about the repeat cues (some of you — Jesus) especially once the temp track fiasco is taken into account. It's not like many other composers who work on sequels haven't done it before. But there are some lush strings, mysterious textures, and beautiful moments and quotes in this score. I love his themes for Madeleine, I love the local flavor it gives to the Mexico and Tangier scenes, and I love how much brassier it gets. Honestly, his two scores brought so much more to the atmosphere of those films than Arnold really did in 5. If only he could have utilized the brass section a little better in his action orchestrating, he could be Bond Music president... for life.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    matt_u wrote: »
    I believe that the notion of Blofeld being basically a petty, envious person that believes to be a genius and a criminal visionary but in the end ends up being just a loser that always fails against his better “blue eyed curse” is fascinating and quite respectful of Fleming’s portrait in a lot of ways.

    +1! I see a lot of Fleming's YOLT Blofeld in Waltz. Downplaying the degree to which Bond has been an irritant, having a sort of mythological connection to the hero. Obviously it may be odd to take that route in Waltz's first film, but I see more discernable Fleming in him than in the other incarnations.

    Also, it’s worth mentioning that is cool that Blofeld’s chooses the bloodline he thinks suits him for what he really his, choosing his mother’s after the death of his ungrateful father, changing his name. This is just 100% Fleming’s character.
    Plus, I just loved how they tied the notion of Blofeld being not only the head of this shadowy organization, but being literally a spectre, “resurrected from the dead”, from Bond’s past.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Hopefully NTTD improves how a lot of us view Spectre.
    I remember not being disappointed by the film as much as I felt disappointed that the film was set up as Daniel's last. It felt like he finally became prime James Bond and then he was finished with the role, thankfully that wasn't the case
  • Posts: 1,314
    If M had had the casting vote on the 9 eyes and voted against, then C would have a better motivation to get rid of him

    All you need to do is swap the South Africans voting against the programme for UK and have the finale be Bond racing to prevent a final terrorist attack in London that bloefeld has told him is going to happen when they were at the base in Tangier.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited September 2021 Posts: 1,711
    Matt007 wrote: »
    If M had had the casting vote on the 9 eyes and voted against, then C would have a better motivation to get rid of him

    All you need to do is swap the South Africans voting against the programme for UK and have the finale be Bond racing to prevent a final terrorist attack in London that bloefeld has told him is going to happen when they were at the base in Tangier.

    As a lover of Spectre, I have to say this would be a vast improvement!
  • Posts: 1,314
    Matt007 wrote: »
    If M had had the casting vote on the 9 eyes and voted against, then C would have a better motivation to get rid of him

    All you need to do is swap the South Africans voting against the programme for UK and have the finale be Bond racing to prevent a final terrorist attack in London that bloefeld has told him is going to happen when they were at the base in Tangier.

    As a liver of Spectre, I have to say this would be a vast improvement!

    Yeah. Spectre is nearly great. But there is no jeopardy in the final 3rd. Simply fixed
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    That would've added more gravitas and tension to the finale, for sure.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    SPECTRE was a disappointment to Skyfall as QoS was to CR. Having said that I just watched it again for the first time in years and I have to say that it was the most I've enjoyed it. Admittedly, that really isn't saying too much, but the context we have gained from No Time To Die these past 2 years has already helped SPECTRE's appeal. This delayed improvement is something I predicted would happen if they continued the story arc. In fact, at the time SPECTRE came out I was adamant that they HAD to continue the loose threads left by the film. Blofeld was still alive (ok, NTTD is obviously not centered on him but he will return) and you can't have Craig end his run by driving off with Madeleine who he barely had chemistry with, surely? There had to be a part two. So I was relieved over the years when we found out they were pretty much going with what I thought/wanted. But once again the best part was thinking that they had to go this route because it would (for the better) recontextualize SPECTRE which was, and still is, a very flawed JB film. Of course, the two films will complement each other and SPECTRE will increase the appeal of NTTD. Can't wait!
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited September 2021 Posts: 1,165
    I had an idea... bare with me on this...
    ...could the Nine Eyes Program be retconed to have an ulterior motive to use the mass of information it would collect to track down Safin before he could enact his plan to eradicate humanity? And due to Bond interfering with Blofeld's plan during SP, the events of NTTD came to pass; which would add an additional responsibility on Bond's shoulders to take down Safin.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,118
    Having just rewatched all the Craig films in quick succession, I must say I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked SP.

    Sam Mendes is a talented director, but for me SF always felt a bit fan fiction. It also lacked atmosphere and interesting locations.

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Having just rewatched all the Craig films in quick succession, I must say I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked SP.

    Sam Mendes is a talented director, but for me SF always felt a bit fan fiction. It also lacked atmosphere and interesting locations.

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Lovely!

    The turning point for me with Spectre was really just moving beyond the (vast) missed opportunities one might have imagined for it, and enjoying what it actually is. It's pretty great. It could have been uncontroversially amazing, but I'll take controversially amazing in a pinch. ;)
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