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I hear ya, and if you'd talked to me last week I'd have agreed. But I'm good at compartmentalizing. I need to be- Quantum Of Solace is one of my favourite Bond movies.
This last one is like Matrix 2 & 3 to me. Or Star Trek: Generations. Or any Highlander movie after the first. Or this last Star Wars trilogy. It simply doesn't exist for me.
I figured that if one likes the film, it would sort of legitimize some of what had previously been thought of as questionable narrative choices in SP...
So maybe in that way I actually agree with @MakeshiftPython; the only effect NTTD has on the rest of Craig's run is that it makes Spectre slightly more enjoyable (even though I already found it very enjoyable).
I still think CR is the best, followed by QoS. They were on the right track despite the editing and abbreviated script development.
I think SF was a bloated, if stylish misstep, and would have been a better later film for Craig. His run will be forever missing that middle "prime Bond" film. (Incidentally, that should have been the unequivocal happy ending film for Craig.)
If we are to have this individual 'actor timeline' thing, then I agree SP should have been the last movie, and we should ideally have had one or two stand-alone missions before Skyfall's 'old dog'.
What a lovely end to the era that would have been, him driving off in his DB5 with the girl. They even left his 'retirement' a little vague, so it wouldn't have been too jarring when the next actor took over.
As it is now, well, 'jarring' would be nice.
If you'll accept Connery to Brosnan are the same Bond, I don't know what the issue is with a 5 film timeline, with the only real continuity we've had in 5 films ever. Even the actors remained the same during this timeline.
I missed that glamour of Bond being in a suit, the leading lady looking fabulous in a beautiful dress and yet they're doing battle with the enemy.
You only get that with Bond
I think that's why a lot of fans enjoyed the Cuba sequence, not just for Ana and the more playful tone. Although after my last viewing it did have a hint of box ticking. I loved Paloma but I do wish the tone of Cuba had been a bit more serious, as great as it was, it was jarring how camp it was compared with the rest of the film. I guess that was intentional to give the audience a breather from the heavy story
CR and SF are in my top 6 Bond films, and I tend to cut QOS some slack due to the writer's strike, but I now feel I have to condemn the "Craig 5" to a side series from the main 20 films that I'd rather forget.
The downward spiral to woeful finale that SPECTRE and NTTD took us on will probably see me lump Craig's first 3 films into an unwatchable, stand alone series whose path I will never cross again.
What will be interesting, is if CR and SF can maintain their places in my top 6 or if the gut-kick of SPECTRE and NTTD actually results in me lowering my opinion, and subsequent ranking, of CR and SF on my list. Ultimately, their ranking shouldn't suffer but it might.
I only ask because a lot of people I see on the forum hate it because it's bad and not really say why they don't like it? That's no dig at you there my friend, just in general.
I'm not a fan of some of the ideas in NTTD and the ending especially but there are lots of improvements from Spectre for me personally
I’m with you there. I haven't really had any questions arise on my later viewings, nothing that takes me out anyways.
Ok, straight out of the gate, I would say that even the weakest Bond films have their plus points. Before NTTD claimed the no.25 spot on my faves list, the bottom spot was occupied by DAF. However, there are parts of DAF I enjoy but overall it was just the weakest. NTTD and SP do have some plus points but more issues.
The first most pressing issue with both SP and NTTD for me was how utterly stale both movies felt. The feel of both movies is a big part of this tbh. If you take a weak Bond movie like DAF or MR, they are hugely flawed but at least they are fun/enjoyable. Both SP and NTTD are far from fun and action is not particularly exciting.
The constant personal links to Bond/Bond's past are irritating and, for me, after Skyfall, actually felt kind of smug. Almost as though the writers are saying, "see, see... you didn't expect that did you?". No we didn't expect it cos it's so utterly awful, Blofeld is Bond's step-brother, Bond has a secret daughter, Bond dies... blah, blah, overused and unimaginative twists that are done to death. We had an interesting backstory and build up of Craig's character from CR through to SF and from there it felt like he could soar and become an entertaining Bond. They went down the pained, miserable route instead of soaring with it and just killed Craig's series stone dead.
Javier Bardem is a big reason I thoroughly enjoy Skyfall. Two quality actors in C.Waltz and R.Malek are poorly written and woefully underused. We're expected to believe Bond falls for the plank of wood that is L.Seydoux, pull the other one.
Ultimately, both movies are far too full of their own self importance and when that is the case you can't get a way with silly flaws. Like Bond swearing to take care of Madeleine forever, then just say ok when she leaves and let her walk down a dark secluded street and get kidnapped??? Or the reason why the nanobots "infecting" everyone can't be destroyed with a pinch??? Watch Red Notice, it's silly but it's fun. Would I expect better that Red Notice from a Bond film - absolutely, but I'd at least expect the fun and vibe of Red Notice from a Bond film, we only get that feel/vibe in Paloma's 15 mins.
I am rambling now, as this is off the top of my head, but both movies take themselves far too seriously when they have such poor twists, all personally linked to Bond, and poor characterisation of the bad guys. Also, weak stories they've attempted to paper over with the soap opera backstories. In addition to all that, they are far too long for no good reason other than smug overindulgence and the assumption that what they are doing is brilliant, it's not!!
CR to Skyfall was fresh and harder edged but still felt like Bond, SP and NTTD were just huge steps in the wrong direction that made me feel I wasn't watching Bond anymore.
I haven't watched any of Brozza's Bond films from start to finish since 2002, I was that disenchanted with them. I'll miss Craig too.
I just watched NTTD, SP & SF last week.
NTTD is the worst Bond movie I've ever seen (as per your detailed review).
SP was stupid & lazy, but at least had some genuinely fun moments for me that redeem it a bit.
SF was just as awkward as ever (I thought I'd like it more this time around after seeing NTTD). The whole thing was so forced & contrived, all in service to ultimately killing M.
IMO all three of these movie suffered from "see, see... you didn't expect that did you?" All three were full of high production values & low creativity. Kirk had a kid he didn't know about, Indy had a kid he didn't know about, let's do it for Bond too.
Kevin fought guys on his home turf without proper weapons while he was home alone, the Ewoks repelled superiour firepower on their home turf without proper weapons, Bond can do it too.
Luke, Han & Leia all died, let's kill M, Felix & Bond too.
Dark & depressing in in fashion, let's make Bond movies dark & depressing too...
Ah well, at least CR & QOS still rock.... and they don't copy other movie ideas to do it.
Yeah, FOUR years. The general movie-going public tends to remember what they like a lot & forget the rest.
Understatement. While I think people warmly embraced CR, I think it took awhile for fans to settle on it. So much rhetoric of “it doesn’t feel like a Bond film”, “where’s Q and Moneypenny??” “this is a Bond film for people who don’t like Bond”
NTTD left a bitter aftertaste, but in time, I think it will fade in memory (as did SPECTRE).
One of the most endearing qualities to the Craig run, after all, is that each of the five films is punctuated with a narrative "exit-point". And for me, the saga ends with SKYFALL.
It didn't feel at all like a traditional Bond film, but two things saved it for me.
1) It was very close to the book in plot, (and the first time he'd ordered the proper Vespa!). So although I didn't like Craig's look, it was still very Fleming.
2) It was a bloody good movie!
I mean, when did we last have a proper mass-market Fleming novel movie tie-in? The Man With The Golden Gun?
A complete badass... when he comes out from behind the door and fires the rifle one-handed up the stairs, during the longshot... my god.
Where are you quoting me from? I don't recall writing this.
Also, just to clarify, it's a Vesper. The name Bond gives his Martini. A Vespa is a brand of Italian scooter. ;)