Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • AstonLotus wrote: »

    I disagree.As much as I enjoy TND, it IS a little too action heavy,even for a Bond film.TWINE had a better balance of story and action.Also,most of the action in TWINE is superb! The PTS boat chase,the ski chase,mineshaft fight,the pipeline sequence,the dockyards battle.I know the submarine climax doesn’t work for some but I liked it.All of this is helped along by David Arnold’s terrific score which is even better than his work on TND.

    I agree regarding the quality of the action sequences in TWINE. Perhaps I'm nostalgic for 90s and early 00s action, but these chases and shootouts truly are among my favorites in the series and a big part of the reason I love Brosnan's films so much. They're storyboarded for pure entertainment. There's something about each of these sequences (whether the Thames chase, the Parahawks chase, the bunker shootout, the caviar factory action, the submarine climax) that really delivers on all the thrills and the laughs, playing on just the right emotions at the right times. It's balletic almost in an explosiony way, and Arnold's propulsive and at times appropriately tongue-in-cheek action music underscores that all perfectly. I'd say this is all probably for another thread anyway, but everything I've written here applies to the action in TND as well.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,568
    I’ve said all I have of Vic Armstrong’s boring sequences.

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    As for TND vs TWINE, I’ll just say TND because it’s mercifully shorter, even if marginal. And I don’t have to think of the wasted potential as much.
  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains.This is a guy who just LOVES what he’s doing and eats up all the scenery.Even when one of his lackeys advises him against bringing the captured Wai Lin up the bridge of his stealth boat,he can’t resist because he loves having an audience!

    Pryce puts in a very fun scenery chewing performance, and he has a couple of killer lines, but I still think they could’ve done more with the idea of Rupert Murdoch as a Bond villain. Sherlock did it better imo, and while it’s tough to compare Carver to Logan Roy from Succession (because one is in a Bond film, the other in a character focused drama), I think he comes across as much more ruthless and machiavellian too.

    I love the Kauffman scene, where Bond finds Paris and then sees the news report about her death and his on the TV. That was brilliant. If we’d got more scenes like that and less machine gun fire then TND could be one of the best for me. As it stands, I thought they wasted a really cool premise (Bond vs Murdoch, who’s married to a former Bond girl) on a pretty generic action film. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good dumb 80s/90s action flick. I even like Rambo 3. But I expect more from a Bond film, especially one with a premise like TND.
  • Anthony Hopkins as Carver would have helped me end. Jonathan Pryce is way too camp.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    It’s not often that you see effusive praise for the action scenes in TWINE. Usually quite the opposite in fact. They’re generally considered a bit flat and lifeless, PTS boat chase excepted.
    And that’s a view I would concur with. The parahawk sequence for instance should be a highlight but for me it’s easily and by some margin the dullest and least exciting ski based action scene in Bond.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Saying that, I still prefer the action scenes in TWINE than in TND. They feel more Bondian, just not executed particularly well
  • Posts: 1,394

    Pryce puts in a very fun scenery chewing performance, and he has a couple of killer lines, but I still think they could’ve done more with the idea of Rupert Murdoch as a Bond villain. Sherlock did it better imo, and while it’s tough to compare Carver to Logan Roy from Succession (because one is in a Bond film, the other in a character focused drama), I think he comes across as much more ruthless and machiavellian too.

    I love the Kauffman scene, where Bond finds Paris and then sees the news report about her death and his on the TV. That was brilliant. If we’d got more scenes like that and less machine gun fire then TND could be one of the best for me. As it stands, I thought they wasted a really cool premise (Bond vs Murdoch, who’s married to a former Bond girl) on a pretty generic action film. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good dumb 80s/90s action flick. I even like Rambo 3. But I expect more from a Bond film, especially one with a premise like TND.

    Yeah I agree with a lot of that.Never seen Succession so I can’t comment on the Logan Roy comparison.I also think that if Monica Belucci had been cast as Paris Carver,I would have bought that relationship with Bond a bit more.

    I think John Woo movies were all the rage in the mid nineties and the climax of TND is very reminiscent of those.Still think the movie is mostly great fun though.I consider it Pierces YOLT with TWINE being his FYEO.


  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I think John Woo movies were all the rage in the mid nineties and the climax of TND is very reminiscent of those.Still think the movie is mostly great fun though.I consider it Pierces YOLT with TWINE being his FYEO.

    And DAD is his DAF. ;)

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,568
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    We’d have moved from John Glen pigeons to John Woo doves
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    We’d have moved from John Glen pigeons to John Woo doves

    :)) Well played.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,568
    If they wanted to have Brosnan hold up two guns like Chow Yun Fat then they really should have enticed John Woo better.

    Just looking at MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 2 is proof that he would have made a more absurdly fun flick out of TND.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    If they wanted to have Brosnan hold up two guns like Chow Yun Fat then they really should have enticed John Woo better.

    Just looking at MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 2 is proof that he would have made a more absurdly fun flick out of TND.

    No. Just no. Bond doing a back flip face kick would have been terrible. Hunt gets away with it because Cruise was a gymnast.

    TND is near perfect. Only casting Monica Bellucci as Paris Carver would have made it perfect.
  • mattjoesmattjoes feeds on your wishes
    Posts: 7,115
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    mattjoes wrote: »

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...
  • mattjoesmattjoes feeds on your wishes
    Posts: 7,115
    chrisisall wrote: »

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...

    It's from Face/Off, directed by John Woo.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    mattjoes wrote: »

    It's from Face/Off, directed by John Woo.

    Oh, LOL, thanks! Okay, yeah...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,568
    So much better than TND!!!

  • mattjoesmattjoes feeds on your wishes
    Posts: 7,115
    So much better than TND!!!

    Face/Off is such a crazy and stylish film. I like it.

    chrisisall wrote: »

    Oh, LOL, thanks! Okay, yeah...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2021 Posts: 8,568
    Jonathan Pryce’s Carver would have totally been a better fit for Woo’s style.
  • Posts: 1,957
    chrisisall wrote: »

    No. Just no. Bond doing a back flip face kick would have been terrible. Hunt gets away with it because Cruise was a gymnast.

    TND is near perfect. Only casting Monica Bellucci as Paris Carver would have made it perfect.

    Exactly. Woo has the distinction of making the single worst MI film. The only fun factor involved in watching it is doing an MST3K version of it with your friends where you laugh at the stupidity. Now Face/Off, that's completely bonkers absurd fun.

    He could've had Bond and Wai Lin in a car spinning out and exchanging sexy looks in slow motion or in the Vietnam motorcycle chase Bond could've picked up a gun and do a 180 and shoot his pursuers without difficulty, also in slow motion.

    What Woo did pull off with MI2 that the Bond series didn't was getting Anthony Hopkins to be in it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,568
    Controversial opinion: I think MI2 is better than the other MI films aside from the first film and GHOST PROTOCOL.

    I wish Brad Bird would do more live action. He would have been ideal for STAR TREK.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 1,394
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The only things that went wrong were the parking house car chase, which was cringy, and the submarine climax which was boring.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,267
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.
    Broken Arrow was awesome.
  • Posts: 207
    The only things that went wrong were the parking house car chase, which was cringy, and the submarine climax which was boring.

    The car chase is a guilty pleasure of mine. I agree about the submarine climax being boring though.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Brosnan had two boring submarine climaxes…
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.

    As you can see I noted that Face Off was an exception.Didn’t care much for Broken Arrow.It really could have been made by any Hollywood action director.It didn’t really have any of Woos themes or motifs.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    Brosnan had two boring submarine climaxes…

    A submarine climax in TND? Wait- which TND? Is there one I haven't seen??
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