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It all comes down to what you want from your Bond.
I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.
How about none? Or rephrase the question. Bond goes through hell in a lot of movies but he comes out on top. That's why we like him.
I'll say this: people who think that Bond is a rapist because of the barn scene in GF shouldn't be writing or directing these films.
I'm not sure why this is any worse than any of the conversations where Bond came up against a foreign agent previously. There was similar kinds of ribbings between Bond and Anya in TSWLM.
And I actually see it as a strength on Bond's part that he doesn't react badly to these kinds of things. He doesn't actually really care about that stuff.
I just rewatched it. Basically they were fighting, Bond stole a kiss, and then she went along with it anyway and that's it.
Surely the only way someone could consider that rape is if a forced kiss counts as rape.
These are movies where people are being shot, beaten up, etc... and people are worried about a kiss?
Agreed on NTTD being hard on the character.
Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,
Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?
And Natalya being hard on him?
Regarding NNTD, not hate. The opposite is true.
That's all there is to it.
People just see what they wanna see.
Interesting points. But I do agree that NTTD was hard on the character. Either the filmmakers wanted to appease today’s society by having DC’s version of Bond killed off, or they just couldn’t be bothered to write good stories anymore and stick to tradition.
I remember first watching Goldeneye and thinking how M and Moneypenny were being quite hard on him. M redeems herself with the 'come back alive' line, but yes, it struck me how the office demographic had changed from the Moore and Dalton eras.
As for NTTD, I felt like they enjoyed giving Bond a hard time. I remember Craig saying "we've really put him through it in this one", which he seemed quite pleased about.
For me, NTTD is the most unpleasant Bond film, but I don't think it was designed for people like me anyway.
They obviously didn't want the film to fail, and by "putting Bond through it" they came up with a formula that current audiences liked, and the film was a success. But I'd argue that they strayed too far from the original concept of James Bond in the process, and that made it an unpalatable movie for some people.
I'm sure they don't 'hate James Bond', but NTTD is the one Bond movie I'd mention if anyone ever asked me which movie veered towards being actually disrespectful to the character.
I think it’s an exaggeration to say Moneypenny was “hard” on him. Though I can imagine that after being brought up on 16 films of Moneypenny exaggeratedly FAWNING over Bond that it must have been a shock to old school to see her having gone on a date with someone that wasn’t Bond. I thought that was refreshing to see.
It sort of helps ground Bond. The older films tended to lean too hard on how much of a superman Bond was that everyone revered him while ALL the ladies swooned over him. For example, I didn’t like how the filmmakers changed the bit in GOLDFINGER where it’s Bond that discovers Goldfinger’s original golf ball, when in the novel it was actually his caddy that discovered it and pointed it out to an astonished Bond.
I mean, even if you compare the two films, Bond has less flaws than Wolverine does in that film. Sure, Bond has trust issues and breaks off his relationship with Madeline, but ultimately he was deceived by Blofeld. His retirement in Jamaica seems rather peaceful too, and after this time jump he becomes less stoic and more relaxed/talkative. If anything the film could have afforded to make Bond look less heroic in order for his death to have more impact - I dunno, maybe he is cruel to Madeline and is the one to break off the relationship for their protection, maybe he becomes more cynical and reluctant to help Felix after the five years...
I still think had Bond turned down Paloma or Nomi it would have cemented his feelings for Madeline even more. In NTTD, it feels like Madeline is out of sight out of mind
Well I suppose that was fitting enough as, for a large part of the film's narrative, Bond did think that Madeline was a traitor working for SPECTRE as that's how Blofeld and his henchmen framed it to look.
I just wish they'd written those interactions with Nomi and Paloma better. They both come across as forced and awkward
That's OK. Sorry they're a bit similar.
Yeah this has been going on for a while but I feel like it suddenly got worse in NTTD.
I don't really remember the details of the interactions between Natalya and Bond but I do remember that line from M.
GE was the first Bond movie I ever saw as a teenager and we all loved the film, but even back then I think that line took me aback a bit, lol
It seems to me like it would be simpler to just remove the elements of the films that they now dislike, instead of kind of criticising itself so much for doing them!
Well, Craig doesn't looked that old and the age gap wasn't obvious, Green also looked matured in that film, I think Camille looked a lot more younger.
But if you can pitch me an actress, I think Rachel Weisz would fit.
I also wished they made the Vesper character a bit more matured in that grave scene in Matera, it's impossible that she can hold a high position at the very young age.
True, I would also prefer more matured Bond Girls like Diana Rigg's Tracy, Maud Adams' Octopussy and Monica Bellucci's Lucia Sciarra.
* Many people liked Paloma to be the main bond girl of the film and have sex with Craig's Bond, but I don't want it to happen, it would look cringe for me, because the age gap between them was a lot more obvious, not exaggerating here, but if Seydoux looks young enough to be Craig's daughter, then Ana De Armas looks young enough to be his granddaughter, I would never watch Knives Out (I just can't imagine that an old man, already grey haired like Benoit Blanc and the young girl Martha had sex in the other movie 😅) if that happened, thankfully it didn't.
There's a few I can think of were I was disappointed, Ana De Armas being a cameo in NTTD, keeping Mr White alive in QOS to have him shoot himself in Spectre and killing Blofeld off the way they did in NTTD.
I think Ana will go on to be a bigger star in years to come and I think the producers will be disappointed they didn't make more of having her in the cast of NTTD. Shame she wasn't cast as the main Bond girl in Bond 26 really
I wouldn't be against 26 being like one or both of those. They're both in my top 5 Bond films as I find them to be both fun and action-packed.
However I thought NTTD took itself pretty seriously so I'm not convinced they'll make the next movie as "fun" as that. It's possible.
Not calling you out in particular, patb, just using your comment as an example of where I get mystified by some of the fan complaints about the Bond character in NTTD. A lot of those against this portrayal make it sound as if he just spent the entire movie doing domestic things. A sparse few of those moments were sprinkled in among gunfights, Aston Martin chases, SUV chases, motorcycle chases, death-defying stunts, explosions aplenty, defiance of M, cocky comments, suave moments and other hallmarks I associate with what makes Bond, Bond.
If anything, there was too much gunplay. The third act seemed to consist mostly of a never-ending video game of Bond and Nomi blowing away countless Saffin minions.
What I find interesting is there are other examples of these types of things in prior Bond movies that don't get people nearly as stirred up as NTTD does.
Of course, there was no Internet in 1985, but when Roger Moore's Bond made quiche and slept in a rocking chair in AVTAK, those were moments I thought were quite anti-Bond and I don't recall any fan letters that said they wouldn't watch another because of that. At the same time, the creators had 57-year-old Roger dallying with several younger women half his age because he's James Bond and what he was expected to do.
Two years earlier in NSNA, you had Connery as a Bond who wasn't pretending to be as young as he once was like the Moore portrayal and he's romancing much younger women and yet still considered sexy because it was Sean Connery doing it.
On the flip side, you have those who complain about Craig's Bond not having a romantic moment with Paloma and how unBond-like that was. Consider Bond romancing Tracy then going to Piz Gloria and acting like he's at a bachelor party. I don't have a problem with that as he was doing his job and they weren't engaged yet, but I've seen other fans complain about it being a terrible thing to do if he was in love with Tracy.
Dalton's Bond was a one-woman man in TLD for the most part and that was big news at the time, but you rarely hear people call it out now or say they don't like his portrayal based on that. But Craig's portrayal seems to be more scrutinized than any other Bond actor, likely because of so many social media outlets and places more people can voice their opinions.
NTTD tried different things and took chances with the character and series. I'd rather have a series willing to take those steps than one that just churns out strict formula-based cookie cutters or halfway does it the way the Brosnan era did.