It Seems There Are More QoS Appreciators Than Thought Before

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  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,792
    One thing that didn't get worse with each subsequent Bond film was DC's acting. That point in NTTD where the bell tower bells were ringing (like a homage to the QoS Sienne scene) and Bond pauses in the car. Without words, Craig is able to convey Bond's inner turmoil that he's ready to give up as he's gotten his heart broken again.

    True, but I like the Bond from QoS better than the more smug, arrogant SP and NTTD one, allthough in NTTD he's compensating that with his love for Madeleine and (their) daughter. And he has good reason to do so: h's not likely to judge M, but he clearly went too far with the project. But in SP his arrogance makes no sense, other than that he's keeping info from his new boss. That's hardly what Bond would do, and after SF we thought, or, at least I thought they'd come to trust eachother. I absolutely don't like the line 'yes, you're right. you do have a difficult day ahead'. M is absolutely right to give Bond a thrashing and to my mind there's absolutely nothing that should keep Bond from telling M what former M send to him. He'd be on a genuine mission that way.
    Well the reason 007 keeps the details to himself is to insulate and protect M early on, and avoid the higher than top secret information from reaching C and the evil organization behind him.

    Revealed later, C watches everyone. 00s. Agents. Everyone.

    That's the usefulness of an agent, to take things on the nose or chin in spite of bureaucracy and protocols when necessary.

    Perhaps, but there's no reason to be such an a** about it. And at that moment C hasn't got that power yet. Of course Bond senses these things.... Whereas we find out only half way through the film. It just doesn't work for me. Bond should be about investigating, not about knowing everything beforehand.

    To me the point is Bond is established, Mallory is the one with the learning curve in his new role. It's not about rank and position or that Bond is a know-it-all, it's that he knows how things work. If he shares too much early on, they all get shut down before he has a chance to shake things up and ferret out the bad guys.

    Later Mallory realizes this, and comes to trust 007's judgment.
    Good evening, sir. Sorry to interrupt your supper,
    but we have some news.

    Evening, sir.

    Using the Smart Blood, I've tracked Bond to a point here in North Africa.

    See, every known map registers it as empty desert.

    Exactly. But if you look at the satellite
    blowup, you can clearly see this.

    We can't help him.

    But, sir, we know where he's heading.

    C is watching everything we do. We're only handing them more information.

    Sir, we can't just desert Bond.

    We have to. We only make him weaker.

    But, sir, we know exactly where he is.

    Yes, I know, but if we can track him, so can others.
    Delete all the Smart Blood files. Everything.
    He's on his own.

    More than just knowing the Rules, if I can say that.

    bond.jpg

    Therein lies the problem: Mallory is introduced to us in a way that we expect him to be already understanding the game. 'there's more to him than you think'. Bond learns to trust him in the Silva firefight, and then once again Mallory, wounded, covers for Bond and his not-communicated plan. It's already clear that Mallory is ready to cover Bond, to trust him. It's also already clear that he's not on the 'bad side'. So in the end of SF Bond does trust Mallory, and yet at the start of SP we're back at square one. Bond may have always been a loner and yes, more often than not he may heve hidden something for the respective M's, but he was never disrespectful. The part you reference to, C's omnipresence, hasn't been mentioned yet, so we have to presume Bond himself doesn't know SP has that long tentacles.

    Bond comes with experience, but there's no direct lead-in to filling the shoes of a double-oh. That's what makes the CR story so compelling.

    Same for the M position. Mallory enters as qualified, but not tempered or seasoned from the start for the very special role he's taken on, And to me he's shown to be a very good boss through events, adjusting to the challenges working to a successful conclusion.

    With C, Bond easily reads him like a cheap dimestore novel and shakes things up as he always does. On the other hand I got the idea Bond does like and trust Mallory, but at the same time he has sound reasons not to share all he knows and compromise his boss. So I'm not seeing conflicts in any of these items.

  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I remember during the SP press conference wouldn't it be interesting if Dave Bautista was revealed as Blofled.
    After all Fleming's Blofeld was more of a physical match, it also would've helped to get away from those Dr Evil comparisons
  • Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember during the SP press conference wouldn't it be interesting if Dave Bautista was revealed as Blofled.
    After all Fleming's Blofeld was more of a physical match, it also would've helped to get away from those Dr Evil comparisons

    But does Bautista's acting match with the experience of Waltz? They bring a different dynamic each unique on its own.

    Dom Greene was probably one of the most realistic villains because be didn't have any scars, physique, and was a "philanthropist "...
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Danny Boyle said that the character would be formed again via a mutation or Dr. Who-like approach to excuse the next actor as to why he would play JB after Craig.

    Boyle said Bond could come back through a mutation? Like his molecules floating in the Pacific come across some toxic waste and he turns into a gelatinous Bond-thing like Senator Kelly in X-Men? I could be down for that. But wouldn't the next Bond still be saddled with worrying he's going to pass the killer nanobots on to Madeleine and Mathilde? Maybe the next movie could start with an opening scroll that explains the mutation neutralized the nanobots. That way you bypass the whole issue and Bond Thing could live with Madeleine and Mathilde in Norway and commute to London by dissolving into the ocean and riding the currents.

    Or there's the "Code Name" theory I guess...but Bond Thing just sounds like an easier way of going about it. Boyle has my vote for B26.

    You're onto something here. But perhaps Bond Thing doesn't have to worry about killing his family anymore, because they already died, when a piano being lifted into an apartment fell on them. Then Bond Thing decides to investigate the shady piano moving organization that has been causing pianos to fall on key government officials all over the world. Later, he (it?) discovers their most nefarious plan yet: to drop a giant piano on the whole world, crushing everyone.

    "Choose your next witticism carefully, Bond Thing. In another moment, you will...B-flat." /:)

    "So that's why they're targeting key government officials."
  • Bond reads C like a cheap book as much as Felix's colleague guy in NTTD
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I remember during the SP press conference wouldn't it be interesting if Dave Bautista was revealed as Blofled.
    After all Fleming's Blofeld was more of a physical match, it also would've helped to get away from those Dr Evil comparisons

    But does Bautista's acting match with the experience of Waltz? They bring a different dynamic each unique on its own.

    Dom Greene was probably one of the most realistic villains because be didn't have any scars, physique, and was a "philanthropist "...

    I'm not sure to be honest mate, watching the press conference at the time it made me think maybe that's why they're hiding who's playing Blofeld. I was certain that if it was Waltz they'd just come out and say it, he was perfect for a modern Blofeld
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2022 Posts: 3,152
    That's the thing with Waltz - on paper, you really would think he was a great fit for Blofeld. Such a shame it was a bit of a squib in practice. Another of SP's misfires.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,147
    I think even Waltz said that he wasn't happy with his performance as Blofeld in SP and wanted to correct this in NTTD... I don't really know what happened as he didn't do anything noticeably different in the latter film, and still very much played Blofeld with that 'affable on the surface but ultimately creepy' thing that he does as Lander in Inglorious Basterds.

    I feel to have made that iteration of Blofeld work he needed to slowly become more unhinged and manic. Y'know, actually give a sense that the character is... well, crazy. Waltz could have done that well but the films didn't quite play up to that.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,258
    One thing that didn't get worse with each subsequent Bond film was DC's acting. That point in NTTD where the bell tower bells were ringing (like a homage to the QoS Sienne scene) and Bond pauses in the car. Without words, Craig is able to convey Bond's inner turmoil that he's ready to give up as he's gotten his heart broken again.

    True, but I like the Bond from QoS better than the more smug, arrogant SP and NTTD one, allthough in NTTD he's compensating that with his love for Madeleine and (their) daughter. And he has good reason to do so: h's not likely to judge M, but he clearly went too far with the project. But in SP his arrogance makes no sense, other than that he's keeping info from his new boss. That's hardly what Bond would do, and after SF we thought, or, at least I thought they'd come to trust eachother. I absolutely don't like the line 'yes, you're right. you do have a difficult day ahead'. M is absolutely right to give Bond a thrashing and to my mind there's absolutely nothing that should keep Bond from telling M what former M send to him. He'd be on a genuine mission that way.
    Well the reason 007 keeps the details to himself is to insulate and protect M early on, and avoid the higher than top secret information from reaching C and the evil organization behind him.

    Revealed later, C watches everyone. 00s. Agents. Everyone.

    That's the usefulness of an agent, to take things on the nose or chin in spite of bureaucracy and protocols when necessary.

    Perhaps, but there's no reason to be such an a** about it. And at that moment C hasn't got that power yet. Of course Bond senses these things.... Whereas we find out only half way through the film. It just doesn't work for me. Bond should be about investigating, not about knowing everything beforehand.

    To me the point is Bond is established, Mallory is the one with the learning curve in his new role. It's not about rank and position or that Bond is a know-it-all, it's that he knows how things work. If he shares too much early on, they all get shut down before he has a chance to shake things up and ferret out the bad guys.

    Later Mallory realizes this, and comes to trust 007's judgment.
    Good evening, sir. Sorry to interrupt your supper,
    but we have some news.

    Evening, sir.

    Using the Smart Blood, I've tracked Bond to a point here in North Africa.

    See, every known map registers it as empty desert.

    Exactly. But if you look at the satellite
    blowup, you can clearly see this.

    We can't help him.

    But, sir, we know where he's heading.

    C is watching everything we do. We're only handing them more information.

    Sir, we can't just desert Bond.

    We have to. We only make him weaker.

    But, sir, we know exactly where he is.

    Yes, I know, but if we can track him, so can others.
    Delete all the Smart Blood files. Everything.
    He's on his own.

    More than just knowing the Rules, if I can say that.

    bond.jpg

    Therein lies the problem: Mallory is introduced to us in a way that we expect him to be already understanding the game. 'there's more to him than you think'. Bond learns to trust him in the Silva firefight, and then once again Mallory, wounded, covers for Bond and his not-communicated plan. It's already clear that Mallory is ready to cover Bond, to trust him. It's also already clear that he's not on the 'bad side'. So in the end of SF Bond does trust Mallory, and yet at the start of SP we're back at square one. Bond may have always been a loner and yes, more often than not he may heve hidden something for the respective M's, but he was never disrespectful. The part you reference to, C's omnipresence, hasn't been mentioned yet, so we have to presume Bond himself doesn't know SP has that long tentacles.

    Bond comes with experience, but there's no direct lead-in to filling the shoes of a double-oh. That's what makes the CR story so compelling.

    Same for the M position. Mallory enters as qualified, but not tempered or seasoned from the start for the very special role he's taken on, And to me he's shown to be a very good boss through events, adjusting to the challenges working to a successful conclusion.

    With C, Bond easily reads him like a cheap dimestore novel and shakes things up as he always does. On the other hand I got the idea Bond does like and trust Mallory, but at the same time he has sound reasons not to share all he knows and compromise his boss. So I'm not seeing conflicts in any of these items.

    Well my main 'bee in my bonnet', to use a Fleming line, is the way Bond treats Mallory at the beginning of SP. It's rather unrespectful, condescending, and to be honest unfair on the man whom has come to trust him. There were far better ways to hide his secret than to scoff his boss whom rightfully scolds him for blowing up an apartment block half way across the world. It's just not the way Bond does these things to my mind.
  • Posts: 1,630
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Danny Boyle said that the character would be formed again via a mutation or Dr. Who-like approach to excuse the next actor as to why he would play JB after Craig.

    Boyle said Bond could come back through a mutation? Like his molecules floating in the Pacific come across some toxic waste and he turns into a gelatinous Bond-thing like Senator Kelly in X-Men? I could be down for that. But wouldn't the next Bond still be saddled with worrying he's going to pass the killer nanobots on to Madeleine and Mathilde? Maybe the next movie could start with an opening scroll that explains the mutation neutralized the nanobots. That way you bypass the whole issue and Bond Thing could live with Madeleine and Mathilde in Norway and commute to London by dissolving into the ocean and riding the currents.

    Or there's the "Code Name" theory I guess...but Bond Thing just sounds like an easier way of going about it. Boyle has my vote for B26.

    You're onto something here. But perhaps Bond Thing doesn't have to worry about killing his family anymore, because they already died, when a piano being lifted into an apartment fell on them. Then Bond Thing decides to investigate the shady piano moving organization that has been causing pianos to fall on key government officials all over the world. Later, he (it?) discovers their most nefarious plan yet: to drop a giant piano on the whole world, crushing everyone.

    "Choose your next witticism carefully, Bond Thing. In another moment, you will...B-flat." /:)

    "So that's why they're targeting key government officials."

    B R I L L I A N T !!! In the books, at least, Bond does have a flat...in Chel-C
  • One thing that didn't get worse with each subsequent Bond film was DC's acting. That point in NTTD where the bell tower bells were ringing (like a homage to the QoS Sienne scene) and Bond pauses in the car. Without words, Craig is able to convey Bond's inner turmoil that he's ready to give up as he's gotten his heart broken again.

    True, but I like the Bond from QoS better than the more smug, arrogant SP and NTTD one, allthough in NTTD he's compensating that with his love for Madeleine and (their) daughter. And he has good reason to do so: h's not likely to judge M, but he clearly went too far with the project. But in SP his arrogance makes no sense, other than that he's keeping info from his new boss. That's hardly what Bond would do, and after SF we thought, or, at least I thought they'd come to trust eachother. I absolutely don't like the line 'yes, you're right. you do have a difficult day ahead'. M is absolutely right to give Bond a thrashing and to my mind there's absolutely nothing that should keep Bond from telling M what former M send to him. He'd be on a genuine mission that way.
    Well the reason 007 keeps the details to himself is to insulate and protect M early on, and avoid the higher than top secret information from reaching C and the evil organization behind him.

    Revealed later, C watches everyone. 00s. Agents. Everyone.

    That's the usefulness of an agent, to take things on the nose or chin in spite of bureaucracy and protocols when necessary.

    Perhaps, but there's no reason to be such an a** about it. And at that moment C hasn't got that power yet. Of course Bond senses these things.... Whereas we find out only half way through the film. It just doesn't work for me. Bond should be about investigating, not about knowing everything beforehand.

    To me the point is Bond is established, Mallory is the one with the learning curve in his new role. It's not about rank and position or that Bond is a know-it-all, it's that he knows how things work. If he shares too much early on, they all get shut down before he has a chance to shake things up and ferret out the bad guys.

    Later Mallory realizes this, and comes to trust 007's judgment.
    Good evening, sir. Sorry to interrupt your supper,
    but we have some news.

    Evening, sir.

    Using the Smart Blood, I've tracked Bond to a point here in North Africa.

    See, every known map registers it as empty desert.

    Exactly. But if you look at the satellite
    blowup, you can clearly see this.

    We can't help him.

    But, sir, we know where he's heading.

    C is watching everything we do. We're only handing them more information.

    Sir, we can't just desert Bond.

    We have to. We only make him weaker.

    But, sir, we know exactly where he is.

    Yes, I know, but if we can track him, so can others.
    Delete all the Smart Blood files. Everything.
    He's on his own.

    More than just knowing the Rules, if I can say that.

    bond.jpg

    Therein lies the problem: Mallory is introduced to us in a way that we expect him to be already understanding the game. 'there's more to him than you think'. Bond learns to trust him in the Silva firefight, and then once again Mallory, wounded, covers for Bond and his not-communicated plan. It's already clear that Mallory is ready to cover Bond, to trust him. It's also already clear that he's not on the 'bad side'. So in the end of SF Bond does trust Mallory, and yet at the start of SP we're back at square one. Bond may have always been a loner and yes, more often than not he may heve hidden something for the respective M's, but he was never disrespectful. The part you reference to, C's omnipresence, hasn't been mentioned yet, so we have to presume Bond himself doesn't know SP has that long tentacles.

    Bond comes with experience, but there's no direct lead-in to filling the shoes of a double-oh. That's what makes the CR story so compelling.

    Same for the M position. Mallory enters as qualified, but not tempered or seasoned from the start for the very special role he's taken on, And to me he's shown to be a very good boss through events, adjusting to the challenges working to a successful conclusion.

    With C, Bond easily reads him like a cheap dimestore novel and shakes things up as he always does. On the other hand I got the idea Bond does like and trust Mallory, but at the same time he has sound reasons not to share all he knows and compromise his boss. So I'm not seeing conflicts in any of these items.

    Well my main 'bee in my bonnet', to use a Fleming line, is the way Bond treats Mallory at the beginning of SP. It's rather unrespectful, condescending, and to be honest unfair on the man whom has come to trust him. There were far better ways to hide his secret than to scoff his boss whom rightfully scolds him for blowing up an apartment block half way across the world. It's just not the way Bond does these things to my mind.

    At the end of SF, it left me wondering if Bond and M would go on to have a brotherly relationship....but that didn't happen.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    I honestly think Waltz is a one trick pony. A good one, yes. But to me he's always a variant of Hans Landa (a character he nailed 100%, absolutely). His Blofeld (don't get me started on the writing and the Cucoogate thing!) was total misfire.

    People keep argueing that Dominic Greene as a character and Amalric were weak and the weakest antagonist for Bond in the Craig era (and beyond). I don't think so at all. All villains in QoS were way better written and acted than Blofeld in SP and NTTD. Yes, QoS had a very "earthy" plot - but Greene was frighteningly mad (just think about the climax fight) - Waltz' Blodfeld was just cringeworthy and nothing else ... more of a joke than Blofeld in DAF and that was mainly an over-the-top 70s comedy version of the character.

    QoS did many many things right ... under pressure and limited creative talent due to a strike and so on ... but the QoS in the end became a MUCH better film than SPECTRE, a film Mendes obviously didn't want to make (and only did for the money and they begged him to do it).
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    @SeanCraig, and that's one of the biggest sins of SP, really, is wasting someone like Waltz in a role as iconic as ESB. How could you mess that up?
  • Posts: 4,147
    To play Devil's Advocate/be entirely fair (although I'm not sure how effective this argument is) Blofeld isn't the easiest character to adapt, especially if he was only meant to be in one film. In the novels he goes from a criminal mastermind seemingly only interested in money to a narcissist with a 'Great Man' complex. Even his appearance is never consistent. It's done purposely, and the fact that his narcism gets more prominent the more SPECTRE is unravelled is interesting, but it's something that has to be explored over at least two films. Otherwise the writers are likely to default to making Blofeld a... well, just a generic villain, only with more elaborate schemes. That or they go in a very different direction entirely (ie. Charles Grey).

    Now, I think they could have done better with the character in SP, and as I said making him slowly become more manic and unhinged may have been a better bet (Waltz could have done this in his performance at least), but as I said it's not an easy character to get completely right.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    It's no doubt tough but that's why I'm not a paid screenwriter. How you are going to re-introduce Blofeld after such a long absence and then cast an actor as intense as Waltz in the role and still botch it is stunning to me.
  • Posts: 4,147
    It's the same problem Sherlock Holmes adaptations have with Moriaty. You have a villain who's in few of the books from the source material, can't be adapted quite the same way without being 100% faithful to those stories, and often has to be re-interpreted. I think with Waltz there was an element of laziness though. I mean, let's be honest, they wanted him to do a version of his Hans Landa performance and that's what he gave them...
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2022 Posts: 3,152
    True, that is what they were going for. Thing is, there was a sense of danger just under the surface about Landa - but there just wasn't about Waltz's Blofeld. There's one very, very brief shot of it when Blofeld gives a goon the nod to knock Bond unconscious - Waltz drops the surface affability and his expression is cold and dead-eyed - that's what we needed to see a bit more of. But it's barely noticeable - and not just because the shot is quicker than any edit in QOS! ;) Didn't Mendes and Waltz have different views on how to play Blofeld? Anyone know what they differed on?
  • Posts: 4,147
    I don't think Waltz has ever said specifically. He did say he was unhappy with his performance though. These are the quotes:

    "I feel that there are some loose ends with my engagement. And I'm not saying that I'm going to be in the next one. I'm not going to be in the next one. But let's say, in terms of my feeling that I have sufficiently served a purpose, there are a few white blotches on that map for me, personally [...] I don't want to be critical of something that doesn't deserve to be criticised, so that's why I'm being a little cryptic. There are just certain things I am unhappy with. I wish I would have gotten the opportunity to iron those glitches out."

    I don't think he'll say specifically what these problems were for some time, if at all. As I said though it's not as though he did anything different with his performance in NTTD so take from that what you will. Mendes did seem to butt heads with certain people on SP though. There's also the quote from Fiennes where he apparently confronted Mendes about an early idea to make M the villain or something? Again, weird considering what M does in NTTD...
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,032
    My guess is the script was so compromised and incomplete for Spectre that they didn’t even bother to properly write Blofeld’s character. They simply relied on “oh we have Waltz, he can carry a weak script”.
  • The whole idea of Mendes coming back for SP and Waltz getting casted was a couple of things....DC had worked with them before and had a great time.

    Secondly, these folks have established names in the industry. Boom!

    But the true gems from the production of Bond movies are those who are lesser known quality actors. These are the ones who make waves and have their careers go higher afterwards rather than getting into the whole Bond curse thing....

    If you don't believe me, look at Olya K, Eva Green (in many ways though not like Olya's story), Daniel Craig was lesser known, GL would have had a better career and become better with his acting if only he said yes to more Bond movies...Sean Connery, need I say more? Oh, and villains from CR and QoS, including Jesper Christensen....it's cheaper for the producers to work with lesser known actors who are very good at their craft and creativity. Not just folks who provide their name and fill a role like (I hate to say, Pierce Brosnan not a personal jab at him)....folks who are genuinely interested to challenge themselves.

    Walther Almeric was really aiming to demonstrate Dominic Greene as someone we see in the news often as a "good person". Marc Forster really worked against all odds to get the best of his actors even if there was only 3 other crew members present.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,258
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.
  • Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,147

    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Haha, yeah. I've said a few times now but the reliance of the villains during Craig era on scars and outright deformities is a bit... well, cliched. With Blofeld it's almost as if his 'inner evil' is being brought to the surface when he gets his eye blown out or something. Much as I like Le Chiffre the way they did Mikkleson's make-up felt pretty generic with the eye scar too. Safin was just weak sauce. They did it best with Silva I think but the idea is still there.

    I do hope they try and make a villain more like Green going forward - sinister, but in a way that is conveyed by the script and the actor's screen presence, not their make-up. Mathieu Amalric has this rather otherworldly look about him - he's not ugly but he has these distinctive bug eyes and sunken features - a sort of Peter Lorre vibe to him. He could really play up this sense that his character was a creep, a sinister narcissist. It's why I'd like to see an actor like Louis Garrel play a villain or henchman - he's also an actor who has that otherworldly look but has the acting chops to sell a sinister character without theatrics.
  • Here is a kind of villain the producers don't try so much of....a narcissist who is a lot like the type of people who are "liked" on social media platforms and political scenes. Similar to Dominic Green but with more emphasis on psychological thriller personality. One that is charming yet deadly. Not in the narcissistic sense of "yes! I am INVINCIBLE!" ....hell no....nor like the villains of GE at all ...more like a serial killer who Bond gets entangled in the crosshairs with. A villain who gets in his way on a mission and is so infuriatingly good at getting Bond to get his eyes off the prize all the while dodging this villain's strikes while escaping their labyrinth (not like TMWTGG) but emphasizing more on the aspect of Bond intruding rather than a gamelike feel it would be a real foot chase in the dark while Bond is hurt and has lost all communication while worried that his colleague or Bond woman is not safe. The tables would turn as Bond chases the villain but the ending wouldn't be some megalomaniacal ending, it'll be a realistic one of some sort. There has to be some aspect of thrill in which the audience is seriously concerned for Bond's life and are also relieved at the reunion or are saddened by the death of the Bond woman. The film would give a subtle social commentary of a sort....incorporating a social commentary could give a boost to the franchise but not in the somewhat comedic way TND does with Carver's plan and his death. Those days of comfortable production of Bond movies out of the mill won't make money as soon as critics pan it for not being fresh.

    One thing CR never showed was why Vesper was screaming although this would have compromised the idea that she struck a plea deal which was later found out by Bond and audience.

    A film showing things from Bond's point of view often works better however that doesn't mean it shouldn't show how sinister to villain can be.

    Silva was charming but not in the sense that he was believable when trying to "comfort" someone in a way that would build trust. Social media influencers who are narcissistic can easily manipulate audiences to believing a fabricated one sided story or they can also trick people into buying things or giving then money.

  • Posts: 15,118
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.

    But there's a reason why they rely on scars so much: in the novels the villain has an arresting appearance and often deformities of some sort. It's kind of difficult to find it in a real life actor, so they use short cuts: Largo's eyepatch, Blofeld's scar, etc. I'm okay with that, but in Amalric's case, or even Mikkelsen's, I think scars are superfluous: they both have ophidian faces, nothing ugly or deformed, but there's something off about them. It doesn't take much: a certain mannerism, a way of dressing, etc.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.

    But there's a reason why they rely on scars so much: in the novels the villain has an arresting appearance and often deformities of some sort. It's kind of difficult to find it in a real life actor, so they use short cuts: Largo's eyepatch, Blofeld's scar, etc. I'm okay with that, but in Amalric's case, or even Mikkelsen's, I think scars are superfluous: they both have ophidian faces, nothing ugly or deformed, but there's something off about them. It doesn't take much: a certain mannerism, a way of dressing, etc.

    The novels were written in a different time period. Not all attributes could survive today. Also, removing scars etc. is a benefit to the audience because the production will have to try harder to work things out via quality of acting.

    If you notice, CR and QoS were not comfortable films to make. They required all of their production teams to pay better attention to detail in most aspects. These films age better.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,258
    Look at Amalric when he's beeing driven away from the private jet. If that look isn't intimidating.
    I remember a making-of of gone in sixty seconds. The director had asked Eccleston to stan up to look more scary (he himself was sitting behind Eccleston. To which Nicolas Cage reacted 'even more scary? F****, this guy is giving me the creeps alright!'.

    All in all, some good acting makes for a far more scary villain than any scar or deformity could. Personally I hated the Silva-one. completely unneccessary.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,147
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.

    But there's a reason why they rely on scars so much: in the novels the villain has an arresting appearance and often deformities of some sort. It's kind of difficult to find it in a real life actor, so they use short cuts: Largo's eyepatch, Blofeld's scar, etc. I'm okay with that, but in Amalric's case, or even Mikkelsen's, I think scars are superfluous: they both have ophidian faces, nothing ugly or deformed, but there's something off about them. It doesn't take much: a certain mannerism, a way of dressing, etc.

    The novels are interesting in the sense that they take place during the post WW2 era and have slightly different relationships with things like scars and deformities etc. than we do today. I mean, the villains of Fleming's novels are often odd looking, sometimes distinctively ugly or fat (and let's be honest, foreign) etc. But it's surprising how rarely they are disfigured or have scars. Hugo Drax is the obvious example, but one gets the sense reading his description that Bond finds his ogre teeth and habit of sucking his thumb more noteworthy, as well as his crude manner. His scars are there, hidden with his beard, but to me they are there more to denote that he is a man who saw battle during the War. Dr. No has his pincher hands I guess, but the likes of Goldfinger just has a moon face and disproportionate sized limbs, and Mr. Big has an odd shaped head and sticking eyes. Largo in TB is even good looking. Many have gimmicks (braces, unusual coloured hair etc.) but usually mixed with an unusual appearance. I do wish further villains would attempt to evoke this more by picking distinctive looking character actors rather than just slapping some make-up on some highly regarded actors.

    If anything, it's Bond who has noticeable scars (on his face, all over his body even as described in TB), as well as his allies (Strangeways in the novels has an eyepatch, again denoting him as a man who served in the War, and of course Leiter gets his hand and leg eaten by sharks in LALD). There's also Honey Rider with her broken nose.
  • Posts: 15,118
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.

    But there's a reason why they rely on scars so much: in the novels the villain has an arresting appearance and often deformities of some sort. It's kind of difficult to find it in a real life actor, so they use short cuts: Largo's eyepatch, Blofeld's scar, etc. I'm okay with that, but in Amalric's case, or even Mikkelsen's, I think scars are superfluous: they both have ophidian faces, nothing ugly or deformed, but there's something off about them. It doesn't take much: a certain mannerism, a way of dressing, etc.

    The novels are interesting in the sense that they take place during the post WW2 era and have slightly different relationships with things like scars and deformities etc. than we do today. I mean, the villains of Fleming's novels are often odd looking, sometimes distinctively ugly or fat (and let's be honest, foreign) etc. But it's surprising how rarely they are disfigured or have scars. Hugo Drax is the obvious example, but one gets the sense reading his description that Bond finds his ogre teeth and habit of sucking his thumb more noteworthy, as well as his crude manner. His scars are there, hidden with his beard, but to me they are there more to denote that he is a man who saw battle during the War. Dr. No has his pincher hands I guess, but the likes of Goldfinger just has a moon face and disproportionate sized limbs, and Mr. Big has an odd shaped head and sticking eyes. Largo in TB is even good looking. Many have gimmicks (braces, unusual coloured hair etc.) but usually mixed with an unusual appearance. I do wish further villains would attempt to evoke this more by picking distinctive looking character actors rather than just slapping some make-up on some highly regarded actors.

    If anything, it's Bond who has noticeable scars (on his face, all over his body even as described in TB), as well as his allies (Strangeways in the novels has an eyepatch, again denoting him as a man who served in the War, and of course Leiter gets his hand and leg eaten by sharks in LALD). There's also Honey Rider with her broken nose.

    But even Largo,while attractive has something hard and off about him. I love to read about real crimes and this is also something frequent with real life mobsters: even if they are attractive there is something thuggish about their appearance and demeanor. I know the scar has become a cliché and is now an anachronism, but I think villains should still have am arresting appearance.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,147
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I love ALmaric's Greene. He seems just the normal guy but he's creepy as hell. That 'like ants under my skin' line is delivered with such manic undertones it send chills down my spine. 'there goes another one', maniacally laughing whilse fighting in a hotel on fire. Greene was one of the most belieavable villains in recent Bond-history. Far more scary than most cold blooded killers.

    Yes. The series makes frequent mistakes that the villain has to look scary or be so obvious with their diabolical personalities....but if the producers want to have more fans and non-fans see and appreciate their movies both financially and critically, they need to realize that the whole cliche of scars etc. is overdone and deserves to be cancelled. It's not only offensive to real life victims, survivors, and battle heroes but it's downright offensive to the intelligence of audience members who are likely old enough to know not to take everyone at face value in life.

    Dominic Greene was creepy in private when mad and his dialogue helped prove it without requiring a flamboyant monologue of any sort. He was animalistic when fighting Bond like be wanted to kill him at any cost. He insulted Bond emotionally when the gunshot was heard during the hotel fire and DC being great at facial expressions didn't have to talk to say that he didn't want to save the guy while pulling him up. And of course, Greene was a philanthropist...the best villain but least appreciated one.


    Look, Le Chiffre had an eye scar, Blofeld had an eye scar, Saffin's scars spoke more volumes than any of his dialogue. It just doesn't add up. It's no wonder this series only got so far into Oscar territory but not quite. They emphasized fan service instead of quality. Realism is escapism in today's cinema because of so much superhero action movies with CGI.

    Bond is a human being, not a talking raccoon or other Marvel character. He is a human being and that's what sets him apart. The producers need to stop copying others and start realizing why people accepted DC as James Bond before SF came out.

    But there's a reason why they rely on scars so much: in the novels the villain has an arresting appearance and often deformities of some sort. It's kind of difficult to find it in a real life actor, so they use short cuts: Largo's eyepatch, Blofeld's scar, etc. I'm okay with that, but in Amalric's case, or even Mikkelsen's, I think scars are superfluous: they both have ophidian faces, nothing ugly or deformed, but there's something off about them. It doesn't take much: a certain mannerism, a way of dressing, etc.

    The novels are interesting in the sense that they take place during the post WW2 era and have slightly different relationships with things like scars and deformities etc. than we do today. I mean, the villains of Fleming's novels are often odd looking, sometimes distinctively ugly or fat (and let's be honest, foreign) etc. But it's surprising how rarely they are disfigured or have scars. Hugo Drax is the obvious example, but one gets the sense reading his description that Bond finds his ogre teeth and habit of sucking his thumb more noteworthy, as well as his crude manner. His scars are there, hidden with his beard, but to me they are there more to denote that he is a man who saw battle during the War. Dr. No has his pincher hands I guess, but the likes of Goldfinger just has a moon face and disproportionate sized limbs, and Mr. Big has an odd shaped head and sticking eyes. Largo in TB is even good looking. Many have gimmicks (braces, unusual coloured hair etc.) but usually mixed with an unusual appearance. I do wish further villains would attempt to evoke this more by picking distinctive looking character actors rather than just slapping some make-up on some highly regarded actors.

    If anything, it's Bond who has noticeable scars (on his face, all over his body even as described in TB), as well as his allies (Strangeways in the novels has an eyepatch, again denoting him as a man who served in the War, and of course Leiter gets his hand and leg eaten by sharks in LALD). There's also Honey Rider with her broken nose.

    But even Largo,while attractive has something hard and off about him. I love to read about real crimes and this is also something frequent with real life mobsters: even if they are attractive there is something thuggish about their appearance and demeanor. I know the scar has become a cliché and is now an anachronism, but I think villains should still have am arresting appearance.

    To be fair, that sense is kinda there with Bond too - beneath his handsome Hoagey Carmichael face is a distinct darkness/cruelty. I do wonder just how much those sorts of writing descriptions of gangsters are embellished for the reader in that sense, especially knowing how dangerous they were. Anyway, I agree, I think Bond villains should have something unique about their appearances, and the actor needs to give off a sense of menace in their performance. I just think the use of scars and deformities for them is a bit of a cliche, and rather a modern one compared to the Fleming novels if anything (like I said, the use of scars or outward injuries like an eyepatch was more likely to suggest War service/arguably heroism rather than someone being 'evil'). It also seems to have been done to the point of laziness during the Craig era. I mean, a character like Safin should have been much more interesting and, dare I say, gimmicky than he was - y'know this ghostly, psychologically damaged man wandering around this garden who seems to have an odd fascination with Japanese culture and a dangerous narcissism. They could have done so much with that but these ideas get so watered down that he ends up looking like a generic Bond villain with a slightly scarred face. Shame, as Rami Malek is an actor with such an unique face and plenty of menace when he wants to play it up. They didn't really need to embellish him with pointless scars like that.
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