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Both TGM and NTTD were the 2 big blockbuster movies that were delayed by Covid, and were seen as the saviour to bringing people back to the cinema again. Only one of these films really achieved this.
As for the ending of NTTD and TMWTGG opening for the next actor - obviously if this had happened certain moments would have been omitted from the film if a sequel were to follow -
There would be no daughter, probably no need for Madeline and her backstory, no need to kill off Felix, Blofeld instead of Safin, and obviously Bond would survive.
I bet even the staunchest fans of NTTD would be ok seeing Felix live, not seeing Bond have a daughter, and seeing Bond kill off Blofeld as the main villain at the end rather than Safin. I doubt these moments would have NTTD fans up in arms saying `how dare they?'
True 👍
Maybe. But we’re talking about two films with different agendas.
I SEE the point you’re making just fine, I just don’t agree with the sentiment that Bond films shouldn’t be allowed to end on a somber note.
Given that we’ve had blockbusters in recent years with somber endings, I think your point doesn’t hold up. And no, the producers of the films should be allowed to be as iconoclastic as Fleming was. And since NTTD did in fact make it second place worldwide (non Chinese) the film was clearly a success with audiences even more so than OHMSS was in its day.
That’s a different argument altogether. I’m talking about the idea of a somber ending being a valid approach. Not about execution.
The sombre ending to OHMSS still hardly compares to the depressing ending of NTTD. And my opinion still stands - had NTTD been just a tad more like TGM in its approach, tone, and ending, it would have done far better at the BO, and would have kept far more fans onside than it did too.
But I'm guessing EON were not too bothered about that. Cruise obviously cared a lot more about keeping the TG fans onboard than EON did about keeping all the Bond fans onboard - and the results clearly now show for all to see.
TGM will go down in the history books as one of the all time great movies. The same definitely won't be said of NTTD in years to come. Out of a 2 year global pandemic, an uplifting movie is exactly what the world needed, and TGM delivered it in spades.
NTTD on the other hand failed miserably. We all didn't realise by just how much until TGM hit the screens.
Was there as much hype for TG:M though? Seems to me the fact that it was Bond and had been advertised quite a bit before the delays had an impact/led to that exhaustion... also I thought TG:M was only delayed by six months, so not as much as NTTD... could be wrong.
I'm not particularly a fan of NTTD and didn't like how the daughter thing was handled, nor do I get anything from Bond's death... I actually like the idea of Safin as a character and his revenge plot against SPECTRE, despite my issues with how he was written. I find him more interesting than Waltz's Blofeld honestly, and going from SP the idea of him being the main villain in a climax is... well, a bit painful, even more so than Safin. I'm fine with Madeline being in the story but don't buy the whole subplot of Blofeld tricking Bond into thinking she betrayed him. I think it would have worked better if SPECTRE had attacked them and Bond broke off their relationship, perhaps acted cruelly to her, as a way of separating/protecting her. Something like this would have made more narrative sense to me. I'd have preferred to have seen Felix meet a fate similar to LALD where he gets badly injured. As it was it didn't feel like the death amounted to much emotionally for Bond/didn't result in him doing anything differently within the narrative.
Again, I just think the idea of having a new actor assume the role after another Bond's story ended feels a bit weird, and to general audiences would have been more jarring than what we got. As much as I don't like how it was done, NTTD was an ending for Craig's Bond. If he had gotten amnesia and travelled to Russia the next Bond's tenure would have been indebted to the Craig era and all its hit and miss creative decisions. Even if it'd been a 'soft sequel', only vaguely alluding to Bond going missing etc. it would have needed some clarification of narrative threads from the previous film, and hence wouldn't have been able to truly start afresh. Ideally for it to work it has to be the same Bond coming back brainwashed as the audience have a connection with that incarnation of the character. They will find it more shocking when he does pull that gun on M. Having a new actor assume the role for that moment is akin to having someone we don't know doing this. It doesn't have the same impact.
I disagree about this. First of all, the movie was finished before the pandemic started, so EON had no way to know that the world needed an uplifting movie.
Secondly, Bond movies are meant to last in ages. NTTD will be watched in 5, 10, 25 and even 50 years from now, just like we watch Dr No 60 years after it was first released. Okay, people might have needed an uplifting movie at that certain point of time (in September 2021), but it won't be the same in 5 or more years. No one watching NTTD in 2054 will think "heh, this needed an uplifting ending because when it came out 30 years ago they were going through hard times". It doesn't make sense.
Thirdly, as bad as the pandemic was (my own mother died of covid in 2020) and still is in certain parts of the world, it's not the only time people suffered through their lives. Some people suffered in 2015 when Spectre released, people suffered in 1981 when they watched FYEO in theatres and people were going through bad times in 1962 when Dr No was released. If a movie's tone should be decided upon the audience's mood, than ALL movies should always be uplifting because there will always be someone going through a hard time. Whether it's because they lost someone, or because they lost their job, or because they had a bad disease or whatever; claiming that we're entitled to an uplifting movie just because we are going through something is a self-centred way of thinking. EON should just make the movie they feel like making.
And, besides, some people actually like sad endings when they feel in a bad mood. It feels cathartic and it makes them feel less lonely. That's why BoJack Horseman was that successful. I didn't like the show myself (couldn't get past the second season), but it is what it is.
True, I wouldn't have complained, just as I haven't complained about this ending. But quite how they could have ended this Bond's story I don't know: he'd already resigned from MI6 and driven into the sunset with his lover in the previous film, we've seen him in his retirement, we've seen him come back for one last job. Was he just going to drive off into the sunset again?
Madeline sacrifices herself instead of Bond. Bond and Mathilde drive off to a new life.
Original Felix was never seen again after LTK, though. Even without direct continuity between the Dalton and Brosnan eras the producers knew it'd still be confusing for a bipedal Felix to reappear. Hence, Jack Wade, the Felix of the Brosnan era.
Same again then.
Great, so reboot it and they can come back, as happened with Felix. No problem then.
So was TGM to be fair.
It's not the same. Bond loses the love of his life, a recurring tragedy for him, but accepts the responsibility of being a father. It works better as a callback to OHMSS and it doesn't come off as a shock death. And the final scene doesn't necessarily need to have them in a car.
A character regaining a leg isn't as big a reboot as bringing him back to life.
Yeah okay, it's slightly different because of the circumstances, but it's still him leaving for a happy life. And Willy's idea which I was replying to was that there was no daughter at all.
That's a bit silly :)
In years to come people will see NTTD as the black sheep, the odd one out, the one where Bond dies, the one that everyone quietly forgets about, as though it didn't really happen.
There is no way NTTD will be looked on as fondly as the likes of CR, GE, TLD, OHMSS, GF, TSWLM, FRWL, etc.
It will be lumped in among (right or wrong) DAD, DAF, AVTAK. Basically every Bond actor's last film has been seen as a turkey, and Craig's tenure is no different. At least EON have been consistent there. This will reside in most fan's bottom of the barrel list, along with DAD. Craig sadly ended his tenure on an All Time Low.
Willing to bet you’re wrong.
This is true.
No Time to Die is the only Bond film that's unpleasant.
End it at the base with Bond killing Blofeld despite his amnesia, Madeleine thinking he's dead, and Bond wandering off to Russia.
Then NTTD opens with the TMWTGG novel. Have Madeleine, if you like, helping him regain his memory. Then write her out a la Tiffany as Bond heads off to Jamaica on the final Craig adventure.
Regardless of my unhappiness with some of the decisions, I don’t think it will be remembered as one of the duds by the general public, I think it will be one of the more or less forgotten ones. Hard to say with us fans. Though it will undoubtedly always be divisive, I tend to think it will settle somewhere towards the middle to lower half, as a general consensus.
Craig did one film too many for my money.
I think people will always rate No Time To Die, but I don't think it'll be seen with the affection of others. But I probably think that because I have zero affection for it myself.
And obviously as "the one where Bond dies" but that would be a disservice. Still a great flick overall.
Y'know, there might be some truth in that. I like NTTD, I 'appreciate' NTTD - but do I have any actual affection for it? Thinking about it, I'm not sure that's a word I'd use in relation to that film. In contrast, while I see all of SP's flaws, I've no hesitation in saying that I do have a lot of affection for it nonetheless. But that word doesn't crop up if I think about NTTD. Maybe it'll develop as the years go by, but...hmmm. The Colonel could be onto something here!
The 'oh, you have a kid you didn't know about' thing had already been done to death before this, but by now we are a bit numb to it's trope, so if Bond had survived I think it would be remembered as 'the one where Bond had a daughter' instead of 'the downer one where Bond died'.
I would feel better about it but I'd still have my issues with the film overall.
On my last viewing, it felt like I was watching Bond being lead to his demise because Craig and the producers wanted it. I wasn't invested at all, which breaks my heart because Craig is my favourite Bond and I love this era.
I wish I could get on board with it and ignore the plot holes (like I can with Skyfall) but I can't. I'm glad people on here enjoy it though, I'm extremely jealous I hope in time my feelings with soften on it