Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    In addition to this very pragmatic argument, I would argue that Bond books or movies always reflected their time: Fleming didn't create his novels in a vacuum and wrote about the changing times, while the movies managed to prove that they were capable of renewing their audience by adapting to their times. To go back to the past would be seen as the demonstration of Eon's inability to renew the series after the Craig era.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 4,162
    echo wrote: »
    Moonraker could work as a period piece.

    A 50's James Bond movie is fresh but...Indiana Jones killed that.

    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.

    To be fair I've heard the counter argument that Amazon's involvement and how long some of the brands have been around (so similar to a Mad Men type way of doing 'product placement', if that show even had involvement with some of those brands, which I'm not sure of) means a period piece can be done in theory. But I think you're at least partially right, it'd be stupid to completely cut ties with many of these brands in their modern incarnations. That and creatively I think Bond hinges on being set in the 'modern world', whatever that may be at the time.

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).
  • Posts: 564
    echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    In addition to this very pragmatic argument, I would argue that Bond books or movies always reflected their time: Fleming didn't create his novels in a vacuum and wrote about the changing times, while the movies managed to prove that they were capable of renewing their audience by adapting to their times. To go back to the past would be seen as the demonstration of Eon's inability to renew the series after the Craig era.

    This is my big sticking point against any period Bond — Fleming didn't write the novels/short stories as period piece, he wrote them contemporary to when he wrote them. As the geopolitical landscape of the world in the 1950s/early 1960s changed, so too does the world of the books.
  • Posts: 1,368
    echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    In addition to this very pragmatic argument, I would argue that Bond books or movies always reflected their time: Fleming didn't create his novels in a vacuum and wrote about the changing times, while the movies managed to prove that they were capable of renewing their audience by adapting to their times. To go back to the past would be seen as the demonstration of Eon's inability to renew the series after the Craig era.


    Aren't they going to do it for ego reasons?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    In addition to this very pragmatic argument, I would argue that Bond books or movies always reflected their time: Fleming didn't create his novels in a vacuum and wrote about the changing times, while the movies managed to prove that they were capable of renewing their audience by adapting to their times. To go back to the past would be seen as the demonstration of Eon's inability to renew the series after the Craig era.


    Aren't they going to do it for ego reasons?

    Trees falling in forests, no one’s around… sigh….

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    As far as I know the only time Eon actually considered doing period pieces was when they were deciding on what direction to go in the 90s after the Cold War was no more. However, I think that was a very short lived consideration because they wouldn’t have afforded to make a period piece anyway.

    I don’t think it was ever a discussion with CR. They had already proved Bond could work in a post-Cold War world with GE, so they were gonna update CR for the 2000s no matter what.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,413
    echo wrote: »
    Moonraker could work as a period piece.

    A 50's James Bond movie is fresh but...Indiana Jones killed that.

    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.

    Although I rewatched the Branagh Murder On The Orient Express the other day- I was surprised that I hadn't noticed a product placement warning on it and wondered what it could be. A bit later on on the train Poirot says how he like the little cakes, and there's a little sign saying Godiva on the counter! :D
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.
  • However, I think that was a very short lived consideration because they wouldn’t have afforded to make a period piece anyway.
    This is the first time I've heard of this. As you said, it must have been a very short lived consideration, and not a very serious one, since Michael France wrote his first draft for GoldenEye with Dalton in mind and the project organically became Brosnan's debut. So, I can't see Eon seriously thinking about going back to the 60s, in-between.
  • echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    They don't need to be. Various filmmakers have proven again and again over the years that it's very possible to make a movie as big as Bond that is financially successful and has no or very little product placement.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited January 17 Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.
    They don't need to be. Various filmmakers have proven again and again over the years that it's very possible to make a movie as big as Bond that is financially successful and has no or very little product placement.

    But has there been a period action film as big as Bond that was successful without using product placement (or even with product placement)?

    EDIT: period pieces aren’t ideal for film investors. They’re very tricky to get financed.
    Forget Bond for a minute: Superman comes from what time period? The late 30s. Why aren’t we talking about bringing The Man of Steel back to that era?

    Or what about Batman? Let’s start a series of films starting in 1939.

    I think that we can see that, apart from die hard fans, this idea would be a dead end to most worldwide audiences. I don’t think there’s an appetite to see heroes step backwards…
  • Posts: 4,162
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.

    That's good then. Was that an old interview (ie. pre Nolan period piece rumours)? Regardless I do think EON generally have that sense of 'traditionalism' in them when it comes to the Bond series. They'll shake things up, but not at cost to what they see as fundamental to how the character works (and I personally think a big part of that is operating in the 'modern world'.)
  • Posts: 3,327
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Parts of MR could still be used - the game of cards with M at Blades, the car chase, Gala Brand, etc.
  • Posts: 1,368
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.

    That's good then. Was that an old interview (ie. pre Nolan period piece rumours)? Regardless I do think EON generally have that sense of 'traditionalism' in them when it comes to the Bond series. They'll shake things up, but not at cost to what they see as fundamental to how the character works (and I personally think a big part of that is operating in the 'modern world'.)

    They killed Bond. At this point anything can happen.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,413
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.

    That's good then. Was that an old interview (ie. pre Nolan period piece rumours)? Regardless I do think EON generally have that sense of 'traditionalism' in them when it comes to the Bond series. They'll shake things up, but not at cost to what they see as fundamental to how the character works (and I personally think a big part of that is operating in the 'modern world'.)

    Yeah a year or two back, but I feel like it was post NTTD- not that long ago.

    .
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Does that really matter?

    killing James Bond wasn't original and they did it anyway.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.

    That's good then. Was that an old interview (ie. pre Nolan period piece rumours)? Regardless I do think EON generally have that sense of 'traditionalism' in them when it comes to the Bond series. They'll shake things up, but not at cost to what they see as fundamental to how the character works (and I personally think a big part of that is operating in the 'modern world'.)

    They killed Bond. At this point anything can happen.

    Don't go changin' Deke.
  • Posts: 12,473
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I'd be very surprised if EON went there to be honest. And I don't think it'd result in a successful film (creatively or financially).

    They have flat out said they wouldn't do a period Bond film. I wish I could find the interview, but they've stated it outright. Not going to happen.

    That's good then. Was that an old interview (ie. pre Nolan period piece rumours)? Regardless I do think EON generally have that sense of 'traditionalism' in them when it comes to the Bond series. They'll shake things up, but not at cost to what they see as fundamental to how the character works (and I personally think a big part of that is operating in the 'modern world'.)

    They killed Bond. At this point anything can happen.

    I agree. Even if certain things are ruled out now, that doesn’t mean they can’t change at some point in the future, especially under inevitable future leadership.
  • Agent0099Agent0099 Milford, Michigan
    Posts: 29
    I really think it would be a brilliant idea if B26 was a modern day adaptation of Forever and a day by Anthony Horrowitz, Perhaps instead of herion the main drug could be fentanyl.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited January 17 Posts: 4,634
    Agent0099 wrote: »
    I really think it would be a brilliant idea if B26 was a modern day adaptation of Forever and a day by Anthony Horrowitz, Perhaps instead of herion the main drug could be fentanyl.

    That's what I've been saying for awhile now. EON should have Anthony Horowitz as a screenwriter. He knows his Fleming as much as P & W. Have Alec Trevelyan be the previous 007. Ralph Fiennes could be Sir Miles as M.
  • Agent0099Agent0099 Milford, Michigan
    Posts: 29
    @MaxCasino I personally prefer Will Smith and Morwenna Banks as screenwriters, Their writing on slow horses is amazing!

  • edited January 17 Posts: 12,837
    To go back to the past would be seen as the demonstration of Eon's inability to renew the series after the Craig era.

    Yeah that’s why I disagree with the argument of “we need a period piece because Bond doesn’t suit the modern world”. Even if they somehow did get away with what they used to in a 12A, and we got something that actually reflected the period instead of (much more likely imo) a modern feeling Bond film in a 60s skin, isn’t it sort of admitting defeat to say that this character, who’s lasted as long as he has by changing and adapting, has reached a point where he can’t do that anymore? And I’m not sure he’s really at that point anyway, people have been saying the world is too PC for Bond now since the 80s and they always manage to keep it going. I think they should stick with a modern setting personally.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited January 18 Posts: 735
    Feyador wrote: »
    Does a new Bond reflect that or maybe just ignore it?
    The Bond film series has always reflected geopolitical crises and trends: classic east-west opposition during the 1960s; cooperation between blocs during détente; more positive representation of communist figures, particularly during the Andropov and Gorbachev years; dispersion of Soviet weapons after the fall of the USSR; political instability of the Russia in the 90s; international terrorism. Goldfinger and YOLT even had Communist China as a background villain, funding the main antagonists.

    The only exceptions would probably be Thunderball (even though the film plays on the fear of nuclear armageddon that has been top of mind since the Cuban Missile Crisis), OHMSS, DAF, LALD and Moonraker, the latter two reflecting the cinematic landscape more than the politics of that time. In any case, it is very rare that these films are made without reflecting the world in which they are produced (politically and culturally). In fact, it would be practically unprecedented for the series if Bond 26 did not reflect the world of the second half of the 2020s.

    Depends on what we mean by Bond films always 'reflecting their times' and whose understanding of such times we choose to embrace.

    Most of the examples above are thirty or more years old, when Bond was closer to his origins in the Cold War, and were safely uncontroversial for their largely North American and European audiences. To provide a colourful, exotic, politically uncontroversial backdrop to the world of the glamorous international spy.

    Yet a widespread belief in a Bond unambiguously serving the righteousness of 'Queen and Country' might only be convincing in a Britain set in the distant past. Which may help explain why the cinematic Bond of more recent times has gone rogue so often. Does that more recent rogue Bond reflect in some measure a widespread diminished faith in governing institutions and elites? Indeed, in 2015's Spectre, going rogue was just about the only honourable thing for a superspy to do.

    Fleming recognized the dilemma of wanting to situate Bond in a politically recognizable world but without wanting to give offense, at least in part, when he moved away from the real world Smersh in his invention of the fantastical SPECTRE.

    And the films, from the start, followed that move ... so far culminating in the politically neutered, largely incomprehensible villain's plot of NTTD.

    The series adapts by embracing big tonal and political shifts in the culture: the rise of feminism; anti-racism; populism; 9/11 ... as examples of a real-world consensus reflected in the films.

    But for the potential Bond audience of today, the world is an ever increasingly different one, much larger, less Eurocentric, more divisive culturally and politically than ever before. And so how a post-Craig Bond might reflect this new era, both tonally and in terms of real world events, is anyone's guess.
  • Posts: 1,993
    A period film brings nothing to the franchise. If anything, it becomes an exercise identifying all the old stuff and giggling. 'Oh, look, a dial phone.' CR was written in 1953. OHMSS ten years later. Fleming wrote in his present, not in his past. But then I also don't like Bond films getting ahead of themselves. The capsule devouring spaceship in YOLT was silly. And the deadly technology in NTTD has yet to be developed.
  • edited January 18 Posts: 36
    Tim Burton's Batman was nominally set in the present day but clearly had 1940s aesthetics. Perhaps Bond could go an equally stylised route with1960s trimmings while retaining a contemporary setting?

  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 685
    Monorailer wrote: »
    Tim Burton's Batman was nominally set in the present day but clearly had 1940s aesthetics. Perhaps Bond could go an equally stylised route with1960s trimmings while retaining a contemporary setting?

    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.
  • edited January 18 Posts: 910
    Feyador wrote: »
    Depends on what we mean by Bond films always 'reflecting their times' and whose understanding of such times we choose to embrace.

    Most of the examples above are thirty or more years old, when Bond was closer to his origins in the Cold War, and were safely uncontroversial for their largely North American and European audiences. To provide a colourful, exotic, politically uncontroversial backdrop to the world of the glamorous international spy.

    Since the end of the Cold War, the series have continued to reflect geopolitical developments and trends, take a look at the Brosnan era: GoldenEye is about post-soviet Russia (you have an unstable and weakened government that is on the verge of being overthrown by a military) and the dispersal of Cold War weaponry and their acquisition by criminal groups; this latter theme is again present in Tomorrow Never Dies (the pre-title sequence set in Russia that includes a weak post-Soviet Russian official who is not ready to launch an operation on his own territory); The World Is Not Enough continues to develop these themes and add the question of energy (the opening up of Central Asian countries and their opening towards the West with pipelines, etc); Die Another Day literally opens with Bond leading a commando mission in a hostile foreign country and here's what Matthew Field says about it in his book Some Kind of Hero:
    Inspiration was drawn from US president, Bill Clinton, who described the 38th Parallel, the strip of land dividing North and South Korea, better known as the demilitarized zone as the ‘the scariest place on earth.’ Remembered Wade, ‘We were all feeling the same about North Korea. It was a hot point in the world, the kind of country you don’t go into. It was a breeding ground for terrorists. Michael knew more about it than we did.

    While I agree all these cases may have been politically uncontroversial, it still shows that Bond movies were still very much about the world of their time. That's for global geopolitics, but you also have the Carver Media Group in TND that echoes the 24-hour news cycle and the evolution of media coverage started with the Gulf War.

    Still regarding TND, the movie is so much a product of its time that its story would have been totally different if the film was released ten years prior: China is shown as the new superpower against which the West risks being at war, something that wouldn't have happened in the 80s, it's obvious that China would have been replaced by the USSR. Let's not forget that this movie (and Bond 17 for the matter) was originally about the handover of Hong Kong and abandoned this geopolitical background because the creative team realised that by the time the film was released, the handover would have already taken place. So, again, through the 1990s, Bond films were the reflect of their times.

    This goes just as well for the Craig era. I have to find the quote, but I remember Mendes explaining that Skyfall reflected the world of intelligence after Julian Assange while Spectre reflected the world after Edward Snowden's revelations. Casino Royale obviously wouldn't have been the same if it was made before 9/11 (beyond the mention of the attacks, the whole plot about terrorism funding is something that was not in the news before) while Quantum of Solace continues on this trend of international terrorism, while the water supply issue is inspired by the Cochabamba Water Revolt. You also have US interference in foreign countries, something that became a particularly high-profile topic after the Iraq War (even if this type of problem in South America also echoes the 60s/70s).

    Forster said that "because Bond plays it real, I thought the political circumstances should be real too, even though Bond shouldn't be a political film". In my opinion, it's a good representation of what most Bond films are.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Monorailer wrote: »
    Tim Burton's Batman was nominally set in the present day but clearly had 1940s aesthetics. Perhaps Bond could go an equally stylised route with1960s trimmings while retaining a contemporary setting?

    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.

    As well as the return of the Cubby era MI6 office.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 685
    I remember reading a review of SP in the paper and the reviewer pointed out its 60s aesthetic, decrying it as a "stale retro fantasy."
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 18 Posts: 16,413
    Monorailer wrote: »
    Tim Burton's Batman was nominally set in the present day but clearly had 1940s aesthetics. Perhaps Bond could go an equally stylised route with1960s trimmings while retaining a contemporary setting?

    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.

    Matera is even full of classic cars in the background- a 60s Fiat here, a 60s Ferrari there: there are some choices being made to make that part of the film feel classic.
    There's a lot of Skyfall I feel you could say is of 'no time' too.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 18 Posts: 3,152
    mtm wrote: »
    There's a lot of Skyfall I feel you could say is of 'no time' too.
    Yes, when the first photo of M's padded office door first appeared, there was even speculation over on ajb that when Bond walked into M's office at the end of SF, Craig and Fiennes were going to re-enact the mission briefing from DN!



  • Posts: 4,162
    mtm wrote: »
    Monorailer wrote: »
    Tim Burton's Batman was nominally set in the present day but clearly had 1940s aesthetics. Perhaps Bond could go an equally stylised route with1960s trimmings while retaining a contemporary setting?

    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.

    Matera is even full of classic cars in the background- a 60s Fiat here, a 60s Ferrari there: there are some choices being made to make that part of the film feel classic.
    There's a lot of Skyfall I feel you could say is of 'no time' too.

    I think an interesting thing about the later Craig films is that they feel slightly more impressionistic, especially in terms of visuals. Bond’s of course always had a sense of heightened reality, and there’ll always be a ‘timelessness’ to it just because of this, but I really get a much greater sense of it, for instance, when I see how overtly Gothic Scotland/the manor are depicted in SF, the yellow tinge to the visuals in SP (whether one likes this choice or not), the fact that as has been pointed out in another thread there’s often an emptiness to the locations even when this doesn’t always logically make sense. Heck, NTTD goes even further with that to the point its story has a tinge of sci fi.

    It’s something I hope they continue to lean into, and I kinda suspect they will just going from precedent. In terms of film/the general ‘trends’ of the day we’re not in an era of gritty, and on the surface ‘realistic’ (at least superficially) action movies with shakey camerawork and quick editing. A lot of big films even have a similar leaning towards that Impressionism/heightened reality I’d argue (John Wick being a major example).
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    Venutius wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    There's a lot of Skyfall I feel you could say is of 'no time' too.
    Yes, when the first photo of M's padded office door first appeared, there was even speculation over on ajb that when Bond walked into M's office at the end of SF, Craig and Fiennes were going to re-enact the mission briefing from DN!



    I'm definitely in the minority that would have loved that.
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