Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited October 27 Posts: 4,162
    Bond is at his most interesting when he's 007. He can be younger or earlier in his career in this role, but I think Bond has to be a seasoned professional whatever way. While I don't mind seeing Bond make a critical mistake for the purposes of story (something like him taking his cooling tank into the space shuttle in YOLT and blowing his cover), I think a film set in motion by Bond failing a mission has to be a very particular kind of Bond film. It's more along the lines of SF where it's quite shocking seeing Bond 'die' and have to build himself up again, and even then that isn't his fault. There has to be a sense that Bond is genuinely the best agent in the Service, especially in the actor's first outing. He can be at odds with his superiors or have some sort of conflict/learn something vital in the story, but I think it's more important for Bond 26 to show us just how dangerous, ruthless, but competent Bond can be as a 00.

    Agreed, I don't think a Bond origin film is interesting creatively.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    I like the idea of a younger Bond early in his OO career. If we do an origin story we have CR, and there's no point in doing a remake of that.
    A Bond who's still learning yet has all the skills to be the best agent in the service.
    I always seem to lean toward the likes of TLD as inspiration. Even though it's not a young Bond or suggest he's relatively new to the service, the way Bond is shown on a training exercise and then later in full assassin mode in the defection of Koskov.
    It's pure cinematic Bond for my money, and if Bond 26 has that vibe, then I'll be happy.
  • Posts: 387
    There's also another idea, is to do one-shot films set in a different reality from Craig.
    Say, you bring back Pierce Brosnan as an older Bond, for one last outing, Frank Miller The Dark Knight style. This we have never seen.
    You could even do one set in the 60's with a new actor. The possibilities are endless.
  • Posts: 1,368
    A successful movie needs a sequel. You can't avoid that.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    A successful movie needs a sequel. You can't avoid that.

    Lots of successful movies don’t have a sequel, so I don’t know where you got that from.
  • edited October 28 Posts: 944
    Instead of experimenting with one-offs, young/old portrayal, let's keep it basic: Bond vs a larger-than-life mastermind villain/corp. No side-story about M or agency drama lol. Action, espionage and iconic villains!

    Also, if it's going to be one film per actor, can I be first?
  • Posts: 1,368
    Benny wrote: »
    A successful movie needs a sequel. You can't avoid that.

    Lots of successful movies don’t have a sequel, so I don’t know where you got that from.

    Joker 2.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    We already got the one-off supervillains, especially from LALD-DAD. IMHO, it got a bit old and stale.

    A bit of continuity, which started to come back in with CR and QoS, was welcome. While they probably overdid the continuity, at least it was a change.
  • Posts: 4,162
    Benny wrote: »
    A successful movie needs a sequel. You can't avoid that.

    Lots of successful movies don’t have a sequel, so I don’t know where you got that from.

    Joker 2.

    The Bond musical extravaganza. Coming soon.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Yeah, I want continuity, a story thread through linked films, I want drama for Bond and MI6, and I want some sort of introduction to the characters and set up, whether that's seen as an 'origin' or not doesn't matter to me, a story has to have a beginning.

    The most popular Bond films amongst fans are the ones which have a heightened element of drama or personal stakes for Bond, they like the ones where there's some continuity to Tracy or whatever: even the origin story one comes very close to the top of being the most favourite one of fans ever.
  • edited October 28 Posts: 4,162
    I think the route they'll go in is less an origin story but simply a very important mission for Bond. Perhaps one where he has to make a difficult decision over the course of the film and come out better for it. Something that impacts him, maybe even changes him. Doesn't have to be a repeat of anything we've seen in the Craig era specifically.

    I mean, in many ways that's not far off GE and TLD. In the latter especially you've got Bond making conscious choices to not kill, and in turn to go against M's orders which saves the day. Just develop that relationship with M ever so slightly more and they could do something similar for Bond 26 and it would work as a modern film (ie. what if Bond/the new M have a close relationship as per the books with Bond as much more of a blunt instrument. During the story Bond has to make a decision to go against M's orders in order to save the day. By the end Bond is now a character more willing to do the right thing/deviate from orders when needed, much like Craig, Brosnan, and Dalton's Bonds were). Could be anything though. The larger than life villains, action, and espionage should always come with that too. It's all what makes a Bond film entertaining.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the route they'll go in is less an origin story but simply a very important mission for Bond. Perhaps one where he has to make a difficult decision over the course of the film and come out better for it. Something that impacts him, maybe even changes him. Doesn't have to be a repeat of anything we've seen in the Craig era specifically.

    You're thinking of The Batman again, aren't you? ;)
  • edited October 28 Posts: 4,162
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the route they'll go in is less an origin story but simply a very important mission for Bond. Perhaps one where he has to make a difficult decision over the course of the film and come out better for it. Something that impacts him, maybe even changes him. Doesn't have to be a repeat of anything we've seen in the Craig era specifically.

    You're thinking of The Batman again, aren't you? ;)

    Probably, yeah! :))

    I can see them going for that sort of thing broadly though. Not in the same way (not sure if anyone needs a depressed Batinson-esque Bond or a darkly lit film, and Batman's arc in that film isn't really applicable to Bond, as much as the series loves villains being mirror images of our hero). I don't think we'll see Bond making quite as many mistakes as Batman does in that film, and perhaps his youth won't be hammered home as much. But find the right story for Bond and you never know.
  • Posts: 1,993
    I prefer each film be a stand alone without an ongoing story thread. The continuity is provided by the characters. Otherwise the films begin to feel like episodes. If we get the recurring supervillain, all Bond really ever gets to do is blowup a bunch of property and wait for the next encounter. Stand alone stories and no more Blofeld for a long time.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 28 Posts: 3,152
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Stand alone stories and no more Blofeld for a long time.
    I'm leaning towards that too, this time around. Not keen on the idea of NewBond being presented in his first film as a screw-up who has to make amends. Maybe in a third film, so we've established how good he is and then get that extra texture. Hoping there's a bit less of the maverick who gets chewed-out by his by-the-book boss trope, too. Fiennes sometimes gave the impression that he didn't rate CraigBond ('I see you haven't lost your touch', after losing Obruchev to Safin). But, like 007HallY said, Bond is the best agent M's got - let M appreciate that sometimes. Let the audience see that too - I'd like to kick off with a couple of films with Bond at the height of his powers, tbh. It's been a while, after all.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 28 Posts: 16,413
    To be fair, Dench M appreciated Bond was her best all the time, as did Fiennes M for more time than he spent shouting at him. And Bond has always been the slightly maverick figure who gets chewed out by M: that dynamic was established right from the very first Bond/M scene. I'd say it's pretty hard to find any Bond/M scene in the whole series where there isn't some tension between them, because that's just how you do an interesting movie scene. The one in NTTD by the river at Hammersmith is maybe one of the least tense in the whole series.

    The plots will always be relatively standalone- a baddie and their plan will always get defeated in a film. But there should be narrative links between the films too- you just don't get movies series which don't do that.
  • edited October 28 Posts: 4,162
    Yeah, I wouldn’t say there’s been a single Bond film or novel that hasn’t been a stand alone adventure. Even when you have a DN-FRWL or CR-QOS situation they’re all distinct stories. Same for things like Jaws or JW Pepper returning or various threads coming back in the Craig and Connery eras.

    It’s the nature of Bond really. They’re always individual adventures with returning elements each time, whether characters, tropes, some overarching plot threads etc. I don’t see any reason to break that precedent with either something so elaborate/interconnected it’s impenetrable for non-fans (a sort of Marvel type thing), or something so stand alone it feels too episodic and like Bond is always back at square one every film.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 28 Posts: 3,152
    Yes, true, after CR, DenchM knew and appreciated CraigBond's worth ('He's my agent and I trust him'). I'd like a bit more of that and less of the chewing-out. Every damn cop show from the last 50 years has had the straight-laced superior butting heads with the guy who's unorthodox but gets the job done, etc. It's sort-of become expected now. That's why I really liked the scene in SF where M busts Tanner and Q for their off-the-books activity, but backs them up instead of pulling out the rule book. From that, I hoped that Fiennes's M would be a guy who put himself between his agents and the bureaucracy so that they could do what needed to be done. There was some of that in the last act of SP, but it took a while to get there. Hope there's more in the next guy's run. You're right, though, mtm, the Bond-M tension is more of an established part of the series (did the Bond films even establish what later became a trope for others? Dunno, maybe!), so if we want to keep the trad elements'll there's a good chance that'll be one of them. Which is fair enough.
  • edited October 28 Posts: 4,162
    I like to see a bit of conflict between Bond and M. But I think it’s definitely something that should be done differently in the next era.

    Again, it’s why I like the idea of a Bond and M relationship that’s closer. Have Bond be genuinely respectful towards M, and have M view Bond as his best agent - the man who he sends for MI6’s most difficult tasks. During the story Bond has to consciously defy M’s orders to thwart the villain, and by the end M develops a newfound respect for Bond as a result. In a way it brides the blunt instrument of the early films with the more maverick prone Bond of the Dalton films onwards.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 28 Posts: 16,413
    007HallY wrote: »

    It’s the nature of Bond really. They’re always individual adventures with returning elements each time, whether characters, tropes, some overarching plot threads etc. I don’t see any reason to break that precedent with either something so elaborate/interconnected it’s impenetrable for non-fans (a sort of Marvel type thing), or something so stand alone it feels too episodic and like Bond is always back at square one every film.

    I think it's something the Mission Impossibles get very right. Each one is a standalone film; you don't have to have seen any of the others to know what's going on or who the characters are. But there are continuing plot strands, notably Ethan's wife and a recurring baddie between a couple of the films, but when they reappear the film explains who they are and what the situation is with them: no prior knowledge is needed as a casual viewer can pick it up (Ethan's wife reappears in one of them, so the film opens with a dream sequence where Ethan dreams about marrying her: so we see her and know straight away she's his wife- it's information very deftly conveyed). But equally, the continuing story can be appreciated by those who can remember the previous one.

    It's something I'm not sure QoS got right. You get completely chucked into that one cold, and it moves so fast that a lot of information comes at you; I'm not sure a new viewer would know who Mr White or Vesper were in that opening interrogation scene. NTTD on the other hand does it okay I think; maybe you might wonder why Bond isn't a spy at the beginning of the film, but if you can go with that I think it's fine; Madeline doesn't need a huge introduction (she's someone he clearly loves); and we're told Blofeld is in prison etc. I think it's reasonable to assume most audience members have heard of SPECTRE, and if not I think you can pick up that they're evil.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 28 Posts: 6,304
    As far as MI goes, this is what happens when your director is also a writer. :)

    The opening of QoS is confusing to the point of ridiculousness. There are some good stunts in there...maybe? But they are lost among the worst editing this side of a Michael Bay movie. Even John Glen would have established, say, the chase in the quarry properly.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    I've heard it said that film might work better if you chopped out the whole car chase so it could start with the Mr White conversation. Obviously it'd be a shame to lose an action scene, but I can see the logic; you'd be eased into the film a bit more.
  • Posts: 1,993
    I like the chase, but it's a style of editing I don't care for. I find it easier to watch on the small screen than in the cinema, but it could have been edited far more effectively.
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    edited October 29 Posts: 65
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I like the chase, but it's a style of editing I don't care for. I find it easier to watch on the small screen than in the cinema, but it could have been edited far more effectively.

    Likewise. The Tocasa(?) opera chase, in my opinion, suffers the same. Didn't feel like a Bondian chase.
    Plus I absolutely hate the Bourne shaky camera fight scenes. I grew up with the Matrix. Give me something where I can see exactly what they are doing. I don't want to feel apart of the fight. I want to watch it. But that's me.
  • Posts: 1,993
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I like the chase, but it's a style of editing I don't care for. I find it easier to watch on the small screen than in the cinema, but it could have been edited far more effectively.

    Likewise. The Tocasa(?) opera chase, in my opinion, suffers the same. Didn't feel like a Bondian chase.
    Plus I absolutely hate the Bourne shaky camera fight scenes. I grew up with the Matrix. Give me something where I can see exactly what they are doing. I don't want to feel apart of the fight. I want to watch it. But that's me.

    I'm not sure which Bourne film it was, but I sat through that film with my eyes closed almost the entire time. The constantly moving camera and the hyper-frenetic cutting created so much motion disturbance that I was nauseated. QoS wasn't quite that bad, but you sense a lot was missed in that opening scene.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    There's very little shaky-cam in QoS overall.
  • edited October 29 Posts: 7,430
    I wouldn't change that opening car chase for anything. Look forward to it every time, love everything about it!
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    I've heard it said that film might work better if you chopped out the whole car chase so it could start with the Mr White conversation. Obviously it'd be a shame to lose an action scene, but I can see the logic; you'd be eased into the film a bit more.

    It probably would make for a better film, but I wonder if Eon and Aston Martin’s deal called for an action sequence involving the car? There seems to be some sort of action/chase sequence involving an Aston in every Craig film.
  • edited October 29 Posts: 4,162
    There's very little shaky-cam in QoS overall.

    Not as much as people think anyway (it’s more the editing that’s the issue).

    That said a weird cinematography quirk of QOS I’ve always noticed are these occasional elaborate but useless shots that add nothing and even take you out of the action. Stuff like a random shot of bowling balls in the foreground as Green and his men walk into the hotel in the background. Or the camera being placed high on the ceiling/above a fan during the Slate/Bond fight (which isn’t easy to do and must have been a bit of a faff. It’s literally only in the film for 1 second too which is wild).
    mtm wrote: »
    I've heard it said that film might work better if you chopped out the whole car chase so it could start with the Mr White conversation. Obviously it'd be a shame to lose an action scene, but I can see the logic; you'd be eased into the film a bit more.

    It probably would make for a better film, but I wonder if Eon and Aston Martin’s deal called for an action sequence involving the car? There seems to be some sort of action/chase sequence involving an Aston in every Craig film.

    I think the chase would be fine if it were interesting. Something to make it more distinctive. It’s just not a very Bondian car chase as it is.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's very little shaky-cam in QoS overall.

    Not as much as people think anyway (it’s more the editing that’s the issue).

    That said a weird cinematography quirk of QOS I’ve always noticed are these occasional elaborate but useless shots that add nothing and even take you out of the action. Stuff like a random shot of bowling balls in the foreground as Green and his men walk into the hotel in the background. Or the camera being placed high on the ceiling/above a fan during the Slate/Bond fight (which isn’t easy to do and must have been a bit of a faff. It’s literally only in the film for 1 second too which is wild).

    Yes, this is a very valid observation I would say. Rather than QoS being a film that utilises shaky-cam, to me it seems more like a film that was shot was almost too much coverage when more concise shot planning might have been beneficial. Part of me wonders if the script issues led to scenes and sequences being overshot, and then Forster decided to use as much of everything as he could in the editing room to give the film a distinctive (and at times distracting, as you say) style. That's how you end up with these kinds of shots in the film that are quite attractive in isolation but seem very random.

    In terms of the action: take the final altercation between Bond and Mitchell in the bell tower as an example. I don't think there's a single angle in that sequence that is repeated more than once. All the shots are very good, and I think the scene is actually quite effective, but it is quite difficult to figure out where both men are in relation to each other because we've no fixed angle/landmark to use as a reference.
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