The What if Bond is modernized from a straight white male in the next film adventure?

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  • weboffearweboffear Scotland
    Posts: 54
    how is Bond no longer being a straight white male being modernised ? i think you could make the argument that not changing him in a box ticking exercise would actually be more of a surprise
  • I could hardly care if the next Bond isn’t white. Just give me a good portrayal and a good movie; then I’ll be happy.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,129
    It would definitely raise a divide among fans for sure, i myself have been wondering that too. Who knows what would happen if in the next installment we have the very first "Bond Boy".
  • Posts: 4,316
    Straight? Yes, I think Bond should always be pretty unambiguously and exclusively heterosexual in terms of how he's portrayed in the films (Don't care about the actor personally, but this is how they should be portrayed onscreen).

    White? No, I don't think Bond has to be white. British, but not white exclusively in my opinion.

    Male? Yes, I think Bond should be male and cisgender as a character regardless of the actor.

    It depends in this instance. So long as the fundamentals of the character are adhered to.
  • Posts: 12,526
    007HallY wrote: »
    Straight? Yes, I think Bond should always be pretty unambiguously and exclusively heterosexual in terms of how he's portrayed in the films (Don't care about the actor personally, but this is how they should be portrayed onscreen).

    White? No, I don't think Bond has to be white. British, but not white exclusively in my opinion.

    Male? Yes, I think Bond should be male and cisgender as a character regardless of the actor.

    It depends in this instance. So long as the fundamentals of the character are adhered to.

    I'm pretty much on this exact same wavelength. I suppose in the end it's pretty subjective as to what "goes too far" for people regarding changes to Bond's traditional character. If he ditches key qualities in his behaviors like drinking, womanizing, and gambling, I'll definitely feel like they've gotten too far away from what the character is. Between supposed internal Amazon discussions and the trend in modern movies in general, my biggest fear is Bond becoming too much of a boy scout. We need flawed heroes.
  • Posts: 16,226
    Anything and everything is okay as long as the film itself is good.

    For instance, B26 could be a shot for shot remake of the infamous BICYCLE MAN episode of "Diff'rent Strokes", with Bond essentially being the Gordon Jump character..........and as long as it's done well, the future of 007 will be assured. :D

    Sorry couldn't resist.........carry on. :D

  • Posts: 368
    I think they should just let Bond be Bond—white, British, straight, and maybe someone who looks like Hoagy Carmichael.

    Gregg Wilson is clearly deluded and shouldn’t be trusted with any decision-making in casting the next Bond.
  • buddyoldchapbuddyoldchap Formerly known as JeremyBondon
    Posts: 196
    White, British, heterosexual, male. No pink hair or bull nose rings.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,272
    I fail to see how changing Bond's ethnicity, gender, sexual preferences, and so forth equals "modernizing" him. It would simply mean that Bond is no longer Bond. No longer a womanizing representative of the old Britain with a masculinity that is both appealing and -- to some -- intimidating. That is not modernizing Bond, that is deleting Bond. Modernizing Bond means that a white, British, heterosexual, male Bond learns to function in a world that no longer takes the social superiority of that profile for granted.
  • There's room for more cool in his character by modernizing. Changing him completely does seem idiotic.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 22 Posts: 16,628
    I don’t see him changing from being straight (well, I could imagine him perhaps seducing a man as part of a mission, it’s not beyond the realms of how these characters work: look at The Jackal for example; it actually makes him seem more cruel somehow. This has even been alluded to in a Bond film and the world didn't end) or indeed a man- Eon have always downplayed any suggestion of that.
    Ethnicity makes no difference; it’s perfectly possible for someone to possess the qualities of Bond without being white. I don’t really see why folks are so wed to it.

    As the question is ‘what if?’, well what would happen is a load of tedious right wing grifter men on YouTube would make a big song and dance about it, make up a load of stories about how the studio is in trouble because they cast a non-white guy, how they’ve had to do a load of reshoots to make it less woke and loads of guys would swallow it whole, papers like The Daily Mail would pick up on it, awful people on X would never stop going on about it and it would all be horrible. Look at the hideous discourse when they dared to cast a black Bond woman in the last film, just disgusting- and she was just a supporting character. We really have gone backwards.
  • Posts: 1,088
    mtm wrote: »
    This has even been alluded to in a Bond film and the world didn't end)

    And in the first Kim Sherwood book.

    As for the question, I'd much prefer James Bond to be portrayed as in the books.

    You have to be careful with all this. Saying 'I don't want a black James Bond' isn't like saying 'I don't want a black doctor', or 'I don't want a black postman'. Some people don't see the distinction though, so you can often land in hot water.
    I'm quite comfortable saying I want him as Fleming described him. This is partly why DC is my least favourite Bond actor. He's a great actor and brilliant screen presence, but he fell a bit too short of the book description for me to be totally on-board.

    So for me, and actor with a different ethnicity would be too far removed from the book Bond. I want another Tim Dalton, basically.



  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited December 22 Posts: 1,679
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t see him changing from being straight (well, I could imagine him perhaps seducing a man as part of a mission, it’s not beyond the realms of how these characters work: look at The Jackal for example; it actually makes him seem more cruel somehow. This has even been alluded to in a Bond film and the world didn't end) or indeed a man- Eon have always downplayed any suggestion of that.
    Ethnicity makes no difference; it’s perfectly possible for someone to possess the qualities of Bond without being white. I don’t really see why folks are so wed to it.

    As the question is ‘what if?’, well what would happen is a load of tedious right wing grifter men on YouTube would make a big song and dance about it, make up a load of stories about how the studio is in trouble because they cast a non-white guy, how they’ve had to do a load of reshoots to make it less woke and loads of guys would swallow it whole, papers like The Daily Mail would pick up on it, awful people on X would never stop going on about it and it would all be horrible. Look at the hideous discourse when they dared to cast a black Bond woman in the last film, just disgusting- and she was just a supporting character. We really have gone backwards.

    I mostly agree with this but want to add that I genuinely think a Black or nonwhite Bond would go over pretty well, eventually. There would be initial backlash from the expected places, but I think it would get quashed quickly by the final product. Once the film is out, barring any ridiculous boycott movements, I think everyone would move on quickly once the actor and Eon once again proves themselves.

    I always see it as two questions for people: Can JB be nonwhite? yes. Should he be white? You can argue to stick to the author's description, but that's about it. So those are the two questions I frame it as. Objective and then personal. If people try to fight me on the objective, it's a fight.

    Fleming wrote him to reflect the men he worked with in the war, but it doesn't have to stay that strict if the character is to evolve for modern times. I think even Fleming would be interested in challenging the whiteness of Bond eventually, as he wrote a woman character in TSWLM and even teased Bond's death. He is not opposed to playing with the storytelling.

    My big point I want EON to take note of is this: do not make Bond's race the plot of the movie in the first one at least. If he's black, there can be hints or nods to the black experience in spywork, any racism they may face, subtleties, but it shouldn't be the main plot that Bond has to now deal with being a different race. He should be Bond still, with a mission. If they want to play with how race impacts the character, do it subtly across the series of films, maybe have one really nasty racist villain if you want, just to mix it up, but just not the opening film. It should add to the character but not distract also from who he already is.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 22 Posts: 16,628
    LucknFate wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t see him changing from being straight (well, I could imagine him perhaps seducing a man as part of a mission, it’s not beyond the realms of how these characters work: look at The Jackal for example; it actually makes him seem more cruel somehow. This has even been alluded to in a Bond film and the world didn't end) or indeed a man- Eon have always downplayed any suggestion of that.
    Ethnicity makes no difference; it’s perfectly possible for someone to possess the qualities of Bond without being white. I don’t really see why folks are so wed to it.

    As the question is ‘what if?’, well what would happen is a load of tedious right wing grifter men on YouTube would make a big song and dance about it, make up a load of stories about how the studio is in trouble because they cast a non-white guy, how they’ve had to do a load of reshoots to make it less woke and loads of guys would swallow it whole, papers like The Daily Mail would pick up on it, awful people on X would never stop going on about it and it would all be horrible. Look at the hideous discourse when they dared to cast a black Bond woman in the last film, just disgusting- and she was just a supporting character. We really have gone backwards.

    I mostly agree with this but want to add that I genuinely think a Black or nonwhite Bond would go over pretty well, eventually. There would be initial backlash from the expected places, but I think it would get quashed quickly by the final product. Once the film is out, barring any ridiculous boycott movements, I think everyone would move on quickly once the actor and Eon once again proves themselves.

    Sure, but it would be years up to that point, it would be exhausting. The culture war movement has become very lucrative for the people who choose to exploit it: at least the whole CraigNotBond thing wasn't really monetized, but now these people are out for a profit and will push the outrage button as hard as they can. You'd have certain politicians even weighing in on it to try and get mileage and attention out of it (as they did when Jaguar cars supposedly 'went woke' recently) because Bond is seen as important to the country. It'll be horrible.
    And bear in mind, Michael Wilson said that he thought the initial backlash against Craig's appearance did actually affect CR's box office.

    I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it, but just that we'll have to prepare ourselves for all the racists making noise.
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I always see it as two questions for people: Can JB be nonwhite? yes. Should he be white? You can argue to stick to the author's description, but that's about it. So those are the two questions I frame it as. Objective and then personal. If people try to fight me on the objective, it's a fight.

    Fleming wrote him to reflect the men he worked with in the war, but it doesn't have to stay that strict if the character is to evolve for modern times. I think even Fleming would be interested in challenging the whiteness of Bond eventually, as he wrote a woman character in TSWLM and even teased Bond's death. He is not opposed to playing with the storytelling.

    Yeah I just don't think it matters all that much: books get adapted all the time and no-one expects the characters to look exactly as they're described. The John McClane character in the book Die Hard was based on was a guy in his 60s.
    And the idealised image most people have of the perfect, super handsome, raven-haired suave Bond doesn't even really come from Fleming, he's mostly a product of the films. Fleming's Bond was a slimmer, scarred man in an old battered suit and we've never really seen him on screen yet.
    Bond has moved on from Fleming, in truth the James Bond 007 most people know is the creation of Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman: he's not Ian Fleming's James Bond.
    LucknFate wrote: »
    My big point I want EON to take note of is this: do not make Bond's race the plot of the movie in the first one at least. If he's black, there can be hints or nods to the black experience in spywork, any racism they may face, subtleties, but it shouldn't be the main plot that Bond has to now deal with being a different race. He should be Bond still, with a mission. If they want to play with how race impacts the character, do it subtly across the series of films, maybe have one really nasty racist villain if you want, just to mix it up, but just not the opening film. It should add to the character but not distract also from who he already is.

    Yeah I guess it could be mentioned but I'd be tempted to steer clear of it for the most part: Bond tends to live in a slightly idealised society where many prejudices don't get mentioned much, or has for the most part. I thought it felt slightly jarring in NTTD when Valdo suddenly turned into a super-racist.
    Maybe it would work though, I'd be open to it.
  • edited December 22 Posts: 2,296
    "LucknFate wrote: »
    My big point I want EON to take note of is this: do not make Bond's race the plot of the movie in the first one at least. If he's black, there can be hints or nods to the black experience in spywork, any racism they may face, subtleties, but it shouldn't be the main plot that Bond has to now deal with being a different race. He should be Bond still, with a mission. If they want to play with how race impacts the character, do it subtly across the series of films, maybe have one really nasty racist villain if you want, just to mix it up, but just not the opening film. It should add to the character but not distract also from who he already is.

    To add those elements would make it feel rather superficial as opposed to organic/natural. If the next Bond is black or any other skin color, the best solution is to just have Bond be Bond; doing the things that we all know and love. After all if race isn’t such a big deal, why make it one within the films itself by drawing attention to the fact that the new Bond is black?
    mtm wrote: »
    I thought it felt slightly jarring in NTTD when Valdo suddenly turned into a super-racist.
    Maybe it would work though, I'd be open to it.

    Yeah that moment in NTTD was strange, especially since there was nothing to really indicate Valdo was racist or anything prior to that line of dialog. He was just comic relief mostly; I suppose there had to be some kind of justification for Nomi killing him. But still it’s jarring.
  • Posts: 1,927
    BT3366 wrote: »
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I always see it as two questions for people: Can JB be nonwhite? yes. Should he be white? You can argue to stick to the author's description, but that's about it. So those are the two questions I frame it as. Objective and then personal. If people try to fight me on the objective, it's a fight.

    Fleming wrote him to reflect the men he worked with in the war, but it doesn't have to stay that strict if the character is to evolve for modern times. I think even Fleming would be interested in challenging the whiteness of Bond eventually, as he wrote a woman character in TSWLM and even teased Bond's death. He is not opposed to playing with the storytelling.

    Yeah I just don't think it matters all that much: books get adapted all the time and no-one expects the characters to look exactly as they're described. The John McClane character in the book Die Hard was based on was a guy in his 60s.
    And the idealised image most people have of the perfect, super handsome, raven-haired suave Bond doesn't even really come from Fleming, he's mostly a product of the films. Fleming's Bond was a slimmer, scarred man in an old battered suit and we've never really seen him on screen yet.
    Bond has moved on from Fleming, in truth the James Bond 007 most people know is the creation of Ian Fleming, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman: he's not Ian Fleming's James Bond.

    That's an irony I see on a lot of fan sites and message boards: So many complaining about Craig - he's blond, he's short, he looks like a bodybuilder, he looks like Putin, etc. It's not how Ian Fleming described Bond. Dalton can't do one-liners, he has no humor, his LTK hairstyle looks like Dracula, he dresses like he's in a Miami Vice episode, he's a one-woman man, that's not Bond.

    They want to try to make a case against the actors by name-dropping Fleming without an actual clue of the content. There was also little or no humor in those early stories either. Even Eon's publicity for LALD tried to spin that Moore was actually closer to Fleming's Bond than Connery was.

    [/quote]

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited December 22 Posts: 6,403
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t see him changing from being straight (well, I could imagine him perhaps seducing a man as part of a mission, it’s not beyond the realms of how these characters work: look at The Jackal for example; it actually makes him seem more cruel somehow. This has even been alluded to in a Bond film and the world didn't end) or indeed a man- Eon have always downplayed any suggestion of that.
    Ethnicity makes no difference; it’s perfectly possible for someone to possess the qualities of Bond without being white. I don’t really see why folks are so wed to it.

    As the question is ‘what if?’, well what would happen is a load of tedious right wing grifter men on YouTube would make a big song and dance about it, make up a load of stories about how the studio is in trouble because they cast a non-white guy, how they’ve had to do a load of reshoots to make it less woke and loads of guys would swallow it whole, papers like The Daily Mail would pick up on it, awful people on X would never stop going on about it and it would all be horrible. Look at the hideous discourse when they dared to cast a black Bond woman in the last film, just disgusting- and she was just a supporting character. We really have gone backwards.

    Well said.

    I kind of agree about Valdo abruptly turning racist. It was clearly there to give Nomi a reason to kill him (a reason to die, ha). They could have worked his racism into the script a bit earlier.

    Or change it entirely and have Valdo say something like "I could kill your whole family like that just by changing my settings."
  • What's wrong with straight white males, are they not modern, are we relics?
  • edited December 22 Posts: 154
    What's wrong with straight white males, are they not modern, are we relics?

    They just want extermination just pure hatred towards a certain group kind of sounds no different than the nazis. I can see this whole thread turning toxic fast.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,088
    What's wrong with straight white males, are they not modern, are we relics?

    They just want extermination just pure hatred towards a certain group kind of sounds no different than the nazis. I can see this whole thread turning toxic fast.

    This board has generally been doing quite a good job from turning a thread toxic. Though I agree that the term "modernized" in the present thread title should be in quotation marks, as it clearly is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, and not everyone may get that.
  • Posts: 154
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    What's wrong with straight white males, are they not modern, are we relics?

    They just want extermination just pure hatred towards a certain group kind of sounds no different than the nazis. I can see this whole thread turning toxic fast.

    This board has generally been doing quite a good job from turning a thread toxic. Though I agree that the term "modernized" in the present thread title should be in quotation marks, as it clearly is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, and not everyone may get that.

    That's good 👍
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,492
    I don't sense any toxic thoughts here, though it is a controversial topic. I must admit to not reading the Variety article. I was a bit surprised that Gregg Wilson was singled out as "modernizing" Bond. I am not sure I am comfortable with the word of modernizing, which implies that a white male playing the character is not "modern". A relic of the past as M once said in GE.

    Lets hope if he is indeed changed that it is done for the purposes of the story. There would be PR galore with both sides weighing in. As just as there are "right wing" content producers out there, the left also has content creators too. It has a possibility to over take the role and even the film.

    Tricky waters to navigate. But one that could be done if the producers are looking for a shake up or a change in direction within the series or story arc they are looking to deliver to audiences.
  • Posts: 154
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't sense any toxic thoughts here, though it is a controversial topic. I must admit to not reading the Variety article. I was a bit surprised that Gregg Wilson was singled out as "modernizing" Bond. I am not sure I am comfortable with the word of modernizing, which implies that a white male playing the character is not "modern". A relic of the past as M once said in GE.

    Lets hope if he is indeed changed that it is done for the purposes of the story. There would be PR galore with both sides weighing in. As just as there are "right wing" content producers out there, the left also has content creators too. It has a possibility to over take the role and even the film.

    Tricky waters to navigate. But one that could be done if the producers are looking for a shake up or a change in direction within the series or story arc they are looking to deliver to audiences.

    I just say create new diverse characters instead of changing characters
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 22 Posts: 16,628
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't sense any toxic thoughts here, though it is a controversial topic. I must admit to not reading the Variety article. I was a bit surprised that Gregg Wilson was singled out as "modernizing" Bond. I am not sure I am comfortable with the word of modernizing, which implies that a white male playing the character is not "modern". A relic of the past as M once said in GE.

    I wouldn't take one word too literally.
    thedove wrote: »
    Lets hope if he is indeed changed that it is done for the purposes of the story. There would be PR galore with both sides weighing in. As just as there are "right wing" content producers out there, the left also has content creators too. It has a possibility to over take the role and even the film.

    Have many films suffered a large backlash from campaigns started by left wing content creators? I can't think of many, certainly when you look at the storms kicked up around Captain Marvel, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, even No Time To Die among others, it's usually from right wing men complaining about women or people of colour.
    They even tried to stir up a backlash to the new Indiana Jones game because one games designer or something who worked on it at the software company is trans. I mean... it's just pathetic.
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't sense any toxic thoughts here, though it is a controversial topic. I must admit to not reading the Variety article. I was a bit surprised that Gregg Wilson was singled out as "modernizing" Bond. I am not sure I am comfortable with the word of modernizing, which implies that a white male playing the character is not "modern". A relic of the past as M once said in GE.

    Lets hope if he is indeed changed that it is done for the purposes of the story. There would be PR galore with both sides weighing in. As just as there are "right wing" content producers out there, the left also has content creators too. It has a possibility to over take the role and even the film.

    Tricky waters to navigate. But one that could be done if the producers are looking for a shake up or a change in direction within the series or story arc they are looking to deliver to audiences.

    I just say create new diverse characters instead of changing characters

    Both Moneypenny and Felix have changed race before, more than once in Felix's case. I don't think many (or anyone?) minded. Doesn't matter.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,492
    Left wing creators largely don't have to complain due to the fact that Hollywood leans decidedly left. They often are defending the choices made by creators. Backlash from the left usually involves Christian movies or movies espousing Christian values. They also tend to trash or rip anyone in Hollywood who doesn't vote or proclaim themselves as Democrats. I think of Jon Voight, Randy Quaid, the dude from Shazam, all were trashed for not being from the left.

    Anyway, I don't wish to derail our what if scenario.

    A Bond who isn't white or straight will have defenders and critics. It may polarize the fan base. To the same extend of Craig's casting? I would think different as the internet is more a thing now.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 22 Posts: 16,628
    thedove wrote: »
    Left wing creators largely don't have to complain due to the fact that Hollywood leans decidedly left. They often are defending the choices made by creators. Backlash from the left usually involves Christian movies or movies espousing Christian values. They also tend to trash or rip anyone in Hollywood who doesn't vote or proclaim themselves as Democrats. I think of Jon Voight, Randy Quaid, the dude from Shazam, all were trashed for not being from the left.

    So a much smaller scale then; it's not really equal on both sides. We don't even know the name of the last guy! :D
    thedove wrote: »
    A Bond who isn't white or straight will have defenders and critics. It may polarize the fan base. To the same extend of Craig's casting? I would think different as the internet is more a thing now.

    It'll be far stronger, because the internet is full of culture war grifters seeking to stoke outrage now.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,603
    This is a very left leaning board from what I've been reading over the years.

    As far as what I think. Don't deviate from the formula. I'll leave it at that. I'll be torn to shreds if I actually say what I want to say
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,628
    Lots of people have expressed the same sentiment above without being torn to shreds, it's a personal opinion. No need to play the martyr.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,403
    This is a very left leaning board from what I've been reading over the years.

    As far as what I think. Don't deviate from the formula. I'll leave it at that. I'll be torn to shreds if I actually say what I want to say

    There are many, many things to be legitimately angry about in the real world without taking it out on a fictional, escapist character. Bond is there to entertain.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,603
    mtm wrote: »
    Lots of people have expressed the same sentiment above without being torn to shreds, it's a personal opinion. No need to play the martyr.

    "Someone usually does."😉
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