It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
^ Back to Top
The MI6 Community is unofficial and in no way associated or linked with EON Productions, MGM, Sony Pictures, Activision or Ian Fleming Publications. Any views expressed on this website are of the individual members and do not necessarily reflect those of the Community owners. Any video or images displayed in topics on MI6 Community are embedded by users from third party sites and as such MI6 Community and its owners take no responsibility for this material.
James Bond News • James Bond Articles • James Bond Magazine
Comments
Yeah but I think he expected too much loyalty from Bond with Trevelyan being a traitor and wanting to kill him at the beginning of the film. Didn't Ourumov work for him then?
It doesn't make sense. It was never that friendship that they try to sell us.
Right...
I really don't know if you've not seen this film in a while (you seem to be misremembering some stuff) or are grasping at straws a bit to try and justify how Travelyan is a bad character (I really don't think it's working and most of this is explained by recounting basic details of the plot/dialogue and has nothing to do with his motivations at this point).
All Travelyan said was he considered asking Bond to join him at one point but knew he wouldn't because he's too loyal to MI6. That feeds into how he views Bond and his hatred for MI6 (which centres ultimately around what happened to his parents). Yes, Ourmaov worked for him and their partnership worked in the way I described previously.
I'm just not sure what your issue is with this film/character at this point.
I remember the movie well. Why is he angry with Bond if he is the traitor? And Bond thought he was dead!
He was asking too much loyalty from Bond for no reason. OK, he was a bad guy but even he should know that he was the traitor.
I'm not sure I'm following you at this point... I've told you a couple of times now that Travelyan dislikes Bond because he represents everything he dislikes about MI6 and he's the reason behind his facial scarring. He said he considered asking Bond to join him (presumably prior to the events of the PTS, which makes a lot of sense as he'd have someone on the inside helping him fake his death) but knew he wouldn't. Like, he simply thought about it but knew it wasn't an option. That's it.
I think you're getting in knots overthinking this at this point, and I'm not sure how much sense you're making. Anyway, I'll end it here :)
But why does he blame Bond? Bond thought he was dead and in any case Trevelyan wanted to kill him first.
Personally I'd be annoyed at Bond too if I was a revenge driven villain who got half my face blown up due to his decision. I'd probably also dislike him anyway as he's everything I'd dislike about MI6/Britain. Anyway, what's he going to say to Bond? 'I know you thought I was dead fam, so no worries about scarring my face. Easy mistake to make'.
It's really not complicated, and nothing to do with Travelyan's overall motivation. It's just an antagonism with Bond :) Don't overthink it mate.
I don't overthink, they overwrite...
:)) No, no overthinking going on here.
And the love-hate relationship with Bond is a bit silly. He may be gay, perhaps that justifies his over-hatred of Bond.
There is a better movie somewhere. ;)
20 random musings:
Anya is wooden and TSWLM’s weak link
With MR/OHMSS being embraced, TMWTGG is the most underrated
FYEO is Moore’s weakest, not AVTAK
LALD hasn’t aged well
QoS’s deleted final scene is the most consequential in the series
Dalton wasn’t any more physically convincing than Roger
Dalton is a great actor but lacks star power
TLD is the ideal template for James Bond films
The Miami Airport sequence in CR should’ve been trimmed or removed
OHMSS is great because of Lazenby, not despite him
The Piz Gloria ski escape remains the best action sequence
GE is important, and I still like it, but overrated
Brosnan was a popular Bond who deserved five films
The Brosnan era tackled certain Craig era elements first and better
NTTD is the best final film for a Bond actor
Despite good work on CR/QoS, Arnold never topped his TND score
Charles Gray had the best demeanour for Blofeld
DAF has the wittiest script in the series
OP is the better movie but NSNA is entertaining and influential
Bond will always be popular, but 1995-2002 was the modern peak
My responses.
In terms of Anya being wooden, it’s a rare time that I blame the actress in this case. I won’t fault Barbara Bach entirely as she was a last minute casting choice. However, the writing material for the Bond Woman is stronger than usual. She feels more human as a character with the writing. Her reactions are fairly natural, in her situations.
TMWTGG is underrated. It has a fairly realistic plot(s) for a Bond Story. Both the assassin’s ego and the energy crisis are real world problems, 50 years later.
I agree with you on TND being Arnold’s best music score. All in a Day’s Work is probably my favorite overall Bond track from him. City of Lovers from CR is a close second.
I agree about Brosnan’s era doing certain elements from Craig’s first and better. The main problem with Craig’s is that they tended to overdo the small human moments. They basically turned those little human moments into a flat-out part of the main plot. To the point there wasn’t really any surprise.
FYEO for me is possibly one of the least memorable Bond movies in general.
Charles Gray as Blofeld is more entertaining than Christoph Waltz as Blofeld. The writing helped Gray camp it up. The writing for Waltz felt forced with his personal revenge plot against Bond. Darker Bond is not always better than Campy Bond.
I view that Brosnan got five movies, thanks to Everything or Nothing trying and succeeding as being a Bond movie, only as a video game.
I can see why you see GE as overrated. While it is important, its middle section does drag a bit. However, it does pickup slack with a great finale.
Some of my recent controversial opinions.
When I consider Bloodstone and Goldeneye (2010) canon with the movies, Bond’s story arc in SF makes more sense. I also believe that the “boss” for Nicole Hunter was Blofeld in SP. I think Alec Trevelyan was acting alone. Also, for GE 2010, I wish that Sean Bean could have comeback to voice the character. With the older mentor figure to Bond as was the plan in the original GE movie. Same with Famke Janssen as Xenia Onatopp.
The most cringe-worthy line delivery for me in the movies is in TB with Patrica Fearing and her obnoxious “JAMES, JAMES WHERE ARE YOU GOING?” Terrible dubbing!
An interesting list of opinions.
1. Anya can feel a bit flat, and Bach's line deliveries and reactions can be underwhelming. So are Lois Chiles' though, so I wonder if that's something about the directing or the era or something.
2. TMWTGG is never a film that hits the very bottom of anybody's leaderboards but is sort of slightly below average. For example, on the most recent list I posted it was at 18. It could maybe move about Dr. No, and maybe get overtaken by Quantum of Solace. Beyond that, not really much for it to move up or down
3. Absolutely not! The score is the worst though of the Moore films.
4. I'd be curious to hear said user elaborate. Racially? Plot wise? I'm guessing the former.
5. Don't get what consequential means in this case. Most consequential deleted scene? Probably, most deleted scenes are fluff. Most consequential scene in the series or the Craig era? I don't think so. Craig's era moves in the same direction, White or no White.
6. Don't disagree. Neither really got into big fist fights.
7. This is said often but I don't really mind about star power.
8. Sure. Probably not unpopular nowadays.
9. I think maybe the scenes pre-poker should have been more connected to the game, but I don't mind it really.
10. Diana Rigg is the greatest thing about OHMSS. I don't think Lazenby was bad, but he simply brings a bit of average bloke to the role. (Which isn't a bad thing). I don't think Connery would have realistically done a lot better
11. Disagree. Moonraker's PTS takes the cake. Non-PTS is probably LTK's tanker chase
12. Goldeneye, Skyfall and Goldfinger are all quite similar in that respect.
13. A fifth Brosnan would have been nice, but after what would have been a more grounded fifth would have been sixth
15. Not for me. I can't seem to muster up the urge to see it again, and I generated that urge with Spectre. Licence to Kill is first, then Diamonds, View, DAD and finally NTTD.
16. I don't really enjoy the QoS score too much. CR I find more joy in but the action scores are indeed surpassed by Arnold's TND. I also enjoy the other Brosnan soundtracks a bit more.
17. He's not bad but not especially good either. Savalas stands above all the rest.
18. Quite good yes. Octopussy's line about the price of eggs stands out, and so does the rest of the work from that film
19. Couldn't get through NSNA. Like Thunderball but more ridiculous and convoluted.
20. Skyfall did gross 1B though. Felt like Craig managed to cement himself and Bond in pop culture.
Anya is wooden and TSWLM’s weak link Yeah, maybe.
With MR/OHMSS being embraced, TMWTGG is the most underrated. Nope, it's perhaps the weakast.
FYEO is Moore’s weakest, not AVTAK. Nope.
LALD hasn’t aged well. Yeah, I can see that. It is pretty racist really.
QoS’s deleted final scene is the most consequential in the series. Can't remember it. Something with Mr White wasn't it.
Dalton wasn’t any more physically convincing than Roger Yes and no. He's okay, but not great in fights, it's true.
Dalton is a great actor but lacks star power He's a good actor, but no star power, yes.
TLD is the ideal template for James Bond films I can see that. It has a good tone and eurospy flavour.
The Miami Airport sequence in CR should’ve been trimmed or removed Nope. It's the inciting incident of the plot.
OHMSS is great because of Lazenby, not despite him Nope
The Piz Gloria ski escape remains the best action sequence So many to pick from, it's hard to nominate a best. Depends how you're judging it: I'd certainly say it's one of the more tense and plot-vital.
GE is important, and I still like it, but overrated Yeah, I can see that.
Brosnan was a popular Bond who deserved five films He was popular, I think he got enough.
The Brosnan era tackled certain Craig era elements first and better Not at all. I'd love to know the thinking here.
NTTD is the best final film for a Bond actor Yeah probably is. Depends if you include OHMSS I guess! :D
Despite good work on CR/QoS, Arnold never topped his TND score Yeah maybe, no strong opinion on that.
Charles Gray had the best demeanour for Blofeld Nah: Telly all the way.
DAF has the wittiest script in the series It's got some neat lines, but they all did around then.
OP is the better movie but NSNA is entertaining and influential Yeah, I'd go with that. I watched a bit of Calvin Dyson ripping it apart on his review the other day and I didn't get what he was going on about to be honest.
Bond will always be popular, but 1995-2002 was the modern peak Nope.
I don't think the film has aged well for other reasons but racism for me isn't one of them.
I have said it before: racism is a serious accusation, not a term to be thrown around loosely.
Well, I wouldn't expect him to offer a kind apology, no, that wouldn't be in the character of a villain. But while he can certainly hate Bond, a mentally competent person wouldn't use Trevelyan's appeals/argumentation with him because none of it makes any sense. Why talk about the timers so much? "I'm still mad at you for changing the timers after you threw down your weapon and I faked my death!" Weird. "007's loyalty was always to the mission, never to his friend." What is he talking about? This doesn't align with what Bond and Alec both know or what the audience witnessed. It's bad writing.
This is also a guy who moaned that "we toppled all those dictators, undermined all those regimes, only to come home: 'Well done, good job, but sorry, old boy, everything you risked your life and limb for has changed.'" This is an allusion to the end of the Cold War, which happened years after he left the service. What is he even talking about? He's also a guy who is plainly 20+years younger than he's meant to be, and who boasts of knowing Bond's every move minutes before putting him in an unusually ineffectual death trap.
There's gotta be some rewrites behind all this. Even his basic plan of "join MI6 as an elite agent, hope they don't do background checks, serve competently for several years, fake my death for an audience of one, steal from the Bank of England and wreck the British economy" isn't something you'd just sit down and write that way.
The film portrays the whole black community as being suspicious: from cabbies to whole restaurant clienteles to entire generations -children to elderly ladies- at funeral processions. They're very much portrayed as 'them' and all potentially under the baddie's spell and so not to be trusted, and even Rosie turns out to be superstitious in a way we're shown is rather credulous.
It's not the most racist film out there, but the message for a lot of it is: if they've got a black face don't trust them. It's not like other films where some folk might turn out to be Spectre members or something: this film makes it seem like every black person is working against 'us'. Yes, Cutter and Quarrel Jr are characters in it too but their presence doesn't exactly cancel much out.
It isn't, but we shouldn't be shy of using it where it's justified, and we shouldn't be afraid to call out things which are racist just because we like the films it's in, and should be prepared to re-examine them without bias. We can make excuses for it treating black communities like that but it doesn't change that it does, and the only accusation is that it hasn't aged well- would it be made like that today? It wouldn't, and that's not a fault of society today being over sensitive, it's just that the film is a bit off in that regard, that's all. It doesn't make the film worthless or anyone a bad person for enjoying it, it just has some faults.
Well, it's not just Strutter and Quarrel Jr. They seem to play with certain people's expectations early on with all the people in Harlem radioing each other. It's presented as sinister, but once we meet Strutter, it should be presumed that many or most of them were allies.
Yeah, this is what I was talking about.
The shoe shiner possibly, but the "you got a honky on your tail" is going to be for Mr Big's car- Bond is the 'honky'. As I say, it doesn't really cancel out the perception the rest of the film gives. You go into a bar filled with 'them', no matter which city or country, none of them will mention it when you disappear. No other Bond films play with communities of people in this way. Consider it rather than dismissing it.
Well, you go into a bar run by a villain and that will happen, yeah. He didn't go into any other bars. He's following villians around. And Bond is being tracked by good guys and bad guys from the community. And not "possibly": Strutter is talking to people from that montage.
He's talking to the shoe shine guy, no-one else (maybe Leiter). The other two in the car are with Mr Big- and that's everyone in that sequence. Look, even if the film is playing with the audience's perceptions at that point that means it's accepting that it has been presenting the idea that everyone in this community is suspicious and 'other', and is continuing to do that. The funeral is probably the strongest note of this in the film: they're all in it together, kids, women, old ladies. And the film continues in that vein. One shoe shine CIA guy doesn't really impact that very much.
We can't pretend their race has nothing to do it and is purely incidental, because that's a lot of the point of the film: it's Bond Does Blaxploitation. But the way they play on the idea that it's not just some faces in the crowd (as other Bond films play the hidden baddies), but the entire crowd which could be against you (on several occasions too), strays over the line a little. Bond is never racist in any way, and that's to be applauded, but the film wanders over that line a little. It's not perfectly innocent and it's not the same as wandering into a villain's party in any other film. I don't think anyone can come out of that film and, with their hand on their heart, say that the film doesn't give the impression that the black community is somewhat other, inscrutable and can't be trusted.
I don't recall the entire sequence and don't remember there being all that many people involved. I think there may have been some unseen voices as well, but I don't know. Point is, it's a mix. And yeah, the audience is led to think (and may be prone to think) that everyone is a villain--like when Bond is being tracked by oh-so-exotic Japanese people when he arrives in Toyko. (Of course, it's entirely possible that YOLT is also racist "othering"--it features a very large corporation and harbor both populated entirely--as far as we are shown--by murderous villains)
I think your characterizations ("from cabbies to whole restaurant clienteles to entire generations -children to elderly ladies- at funeral processions") are a bit of question-begging. There may be people of different generations in that funeral procession, but to say that "entire generations" are represented as suspect is a disingenuous way to put it. And there are two funeral processions made up of the exact same people. These are not random hordes of Black Americans murdering people. It's a single group that works for the movie's villain. And a specific cabbie and a single restaurant chain.
There are not many random encounters in LALD. It's specific people looking for each other. Did you think the cabbie was just bad luck?
I think YOLT is a good comparison actually- it doesn't present the same issue. Not least because it doesn't show the whole community being potentially villainous: just baddies in their particular baddie zones, plus of course Bond initially encounters, meets, lives amongst, and is shown to respect (as much as he ever does!) lots of allies or just simple normal people along the way. And they're not shown as living in their own bubble in one of 'our' countries, with their cultural pursuits as being part of their treachery. Bond goes to a Sumo match, and the whole crowd doesn't turn against him. He uses an onsen and the girls there don't try and kill him, he just has a nice time etc.
Why? You've said that instead of explaining it. Are you just picking on the wording? Okay, people of all generations and genders are shown to be complicit. It's still the same effect.
Sure, and what's the impression given by all of those, dozens of people, all in crowds? All doing something very specific to their own, uniquely black culture. And please don't treat this as if they're all white, because they're not. There's a very specific impression being created here. If you can't see it you can't see it.
I do remember when you said that you couldn't imagine Nomi being humiliated by Bond in NTTD because of diversity and all that- which I think you'd agree you were wrong about and Bond did pretty much nothing but.
Well I certainly couldn't imagine it, but not "because of diversity and all that", or what you want to imply with it. And yeah, I was totally wrong about it--a fairly unusual thing happened in that movie! But I merely anticipated the same thing the Guardian anticipated, just less gleefully.
But LALD doesn't show the entire community as being potentially villainous either. Baddies in their baddie zones: this funeral group, this restaurant chain. Or in YOLT, that entire port, that giant corporation. Bond in YOLT wasn't going after a specific person and his organization, so he had a lot more encounters with average people. And the whole movie was in Japan. I suppose they could have had Bond go to some large event in Harlem to get information though?
I don't know if you think Harlem isn't/wasn't something of a bubble, insofar as its demographic makeup, or if you think if black villains shouldn't be presented as "doing something very specific to their own, uniquely black culture", but both ideas seem odd to me, and are an example of the kind of thinking I worried about cropping up in NTTD.
You said she's be hypercompetent because they'd portray her race in nothing but an overly positive representation. I'm not implying anything you didn't say: ironically you're the one implying I'm saying something untrue there.
My point is that your track record is a bit off with these things.
Yes it does. When do we see the black community in the US and they're not all suspect? As opposed to all the times we're shown a crowd of outwardly normal black people, and they're all secretly against us. You can see this, surely?
Yes, you're getting there. YOLT creates a different effect.
You're trying to make excuses for why Bond meets only baddies within the plot of the film, which isn't the way to go about it. Instead, think about what the effect is of showing us only crowds of treacherous black people, all doing their black culture things together and without any white people around, like a blues funeral or a funk club in Harlem. It's not about whether you can excuse it on the basis of 'well in the plot these are all baddies, even though they seem like normal people, and all of the normal nice people are just offscreen somewhere' - films create effects through their portrayals, what they choose to show and what they choose not to show, what they create associations between.
There's no Columbo or Tiger taking Bond inside the culture and guiding him around; he's walled out it and the whole thing is pointed against him: we're shown that it's all dangerous.
Even the fun evening dance routine for the tourists in San Monique has an actual psychopath for a lead dancer.
And you were wrong about, yes. You're missing the point of what I'm saying here. It's odd because you were so keen to criticise NTTD on the basis of just suspecting that it would be too positive about people of colour, but you can't see how an older film might have been negative on the subject.
Folks are always saying that these older things which seem slightly problematic now shouldn't be edited or cancelled, but left as historical documents from which we should learn about how attitudes have changed over time. Which is fine, but if we're going to do that it's important to actually look at them critically and question if they were entirely okay, not to just try and defend everything.
I had repeatedly said it had more to do with the trend of hypercompetent women in film, and not so much Nomi's race. But in any case, if people like yourself are suggesting villains should not be presented "doing something very specific to their own, uniquely black culture", it would not be unreasonable to worry about contrivance in the writing. And again, outlets like The Guardian anticipated the exact same thing, happily.
(I also didn't "criticize" NTTD in advance of seeing it.)
There isn't a point in LALD where I see a crowd of outwardly normal black people, and they're all secretly against "us". Most of Bond's engagement with black people is when he goes to specific places connected to the villain. I suppose the funeral procession at the beginning would be an exception, but when the exact same people show up later, we know who they are.
I honestly do not think of "crowds of treacherous black people" when I think of LALD, but I guess they could have put a bunch of white people in Harlem, or not had the black villains involved with any traditionally black activities, or included extra scenes of such activities with neutral or noble people. I don't see how it would improve the film.
It was very much about her race, the races of people in Rogue One etc. The treatment of women, was part of it yes, but also race: Will Smith, Halle Berry etc.
I would class saying the character in the film would be predictable and comparing it to other 'bland' and 'lazy' portrayals of PoC amounts to criticism, but it's ultimately just semantics if you think that term inappropriate, I won't hold to it.
That someone else said a similar thing is irrelevant; you're also misunderstanding what I'm saying here, I'm obviously not saying that. You're implying that I'm saying that just that one thing on its own makes it bad, and I would hope you've seen that I'm not.
Crikey. The funeral procession, yes; that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not an exception; it's a running theme. Outwardly normal people and they're all against 'us'. Then we go to a bar full of people and they're all bad. And then both of these happen again.
Yes, I understand that they're all working for the baddie, I've seen the film. But the message is that there's great numbers of people hiding in this community all against 'us'. That's the impression the film creates. It doesn't do anything to dispel that impression. Bond enters the world of black culture in the US for the very first time, and we're shown (i.e. we see nothing to the contrary) it to be almost completely permeated by bad people from one side of the country to the other. Is that an untrue statement?
I'm sure. The question is whether the film, overall, is a bit racist in its treatment of black people, and it is. It doesn't deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth, but we can learn from it.
I think it would have been more interesting if instead of everyone being a henchmen there was more a sense that most people in the community instead fear Mr. Big and his gang. So ordinary people are more likely to rat Bond out when he steps into Harlem. Not a change immune to criticisms/issues depending on how it’s done, but it’s a change that’d make a difference (and I think is more interesting).
I mentioned The Guardian because you're doing sort of a well-poisoning thing here by wrongly suggesting I'm hostile to diversity, on the basis of a previous discussion you're misrepresenting. Yes, race was also discussed, more so by others, and I have no doubt I would defend someone's right to have a certain opinion or skepticism on the basis of other trends, but any concern I had for the character of Nomi was not really centered on her race at all, and I said as much.
When the funeral procession happens the first time, it's a surprise. Nothing looks sinister until something sinister happens (though I can only speak for myself here!). The second time, it's the same exact people, so yeah, it looks sinister. It's not a new random horde of Black Americans.
Sort of, yes. Bond only engages with plot-relevant people, who are mostly baddies, and that is how he comes to be engaged with them. Aside from background characters (who I may find less innately sinister than you do? Kidding), that's all we really get. Do you think Strutter is presented as the "one good Black man in Harlem" or something? Perhaps along with whoever is on the radio? I honestly do not get that vibe at all.
And you're misrepresenting what I'm saying: I'm not saying you're hostile to diversity, I haven't said that at all; you just have a track record of missing the mark when it comes to this subject. And no, you mentioned gender and race together several times, it wasn't other people. And you were the only one to bring up the Asian people in Rogue One.
But it's not a new group of innocent ones either. Wedding party in YOLT: nice local people. The diving girls and fisherman: all nice local people. Black Americans: not so much.
You're right it doesn't look sinister- it is then revealed to be as such with all of them in on it.
It's a great and memorable scene; I just think it combines with the rest of the film to create an unhealthy impression.
It's fine that you don't get that vibe, but I'm asking you to consider it rather than find 'but he's a baddie' plot excuses. Yes, baddies are all we really get as you point out: that's the point. They're all baddies. And yet it's not a small group of people we're shown, it's not like just the Kobe dock workers, it's a wide group of people in various, apparently normal walks of life, diverse ages and genders and backgrounds with only one thing in common.
What is the film showing us with this? Does YOLT show Japanese life to be almost completely permeated by SPECTRE agents? Or do we actually get plenty of glimpses of normal and innocent people and meetings with large amounts of allies? It's not 'sort of', my statement is accurate for LALD but wouldn't be for YOLT. I get the impression that you are actually seeing the difference.
Yeah exactly; it is the impression the film creates.
It's almost like saying that Goodnight in TMWTGG isn't a slightly demeaningly sexist example of a female character just because she's an MI6 spy and so must be really smart and capable. Sure, but she wears a bikini and almost kills 007 by being a klutz with her bum. Sometimes the film just says what it says! :D
That's a great call, that would have worked really well. Rosie is actually a bit like that so it could have worked, but she's more fearful of the superstition, which is itself perhaps also not something which has aged terribly well.