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The Craig era - sullied for some?

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  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,680
    LeonardPine wrote: »
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    That depends on your idea of 'fun..' ;)

    (Dr. Evil voice) Mr Kil with a frickin laser beam attached to his head.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,259
    Last_Rat_Standing wrote: »
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    (Dr. Evil voice) Mr Kil with a frickin laser beam attached to his head.

    :))
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    edited February 17 Posts: 2,463
    LeonardPine wrote: »
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    That depends on your idea of 'fun..' ;)

    Invisible Cars and CGI Kite Surfing >>> Elvis and Foster Bros XD
  • Reflsin2bourbonsReflsin2bourbons
    Posts: 363
    Well yes, the Craig era is worsened in my eyes for having a bad film. And in attempts to tie all the Craig films together, bad films do kind of bring down the rest of the films. But I don't think the ending of NTTD is why the Craig era, or even the film doesn't work.

    Make no mistake, the death of Bond in NTTD doesn't work for me. I still don't understand why Bond was sent alone to take out the base, and not both him and Nomi (and if only one would go, surely it'd be Nomi and Bond takes his family to safety!) But Bond dying could work in principle, if a very specific set of principles.

    Craig is mostly hurt by having 2 really bad back to back films in Spectre and NTTD. Not since Connery's TB/YOLT duo have films that poor been put next to each other. I mean the last time I watched Spectre I couldn't deal with how stupid it was and I can't really bring myself to watch NTTD: so I suppose because of that Craig goes from one of the best Bonds to about the middle of the pack.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 17 Posts: 17,565
    LeonardPine wrote: »
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    Yeah, That's interesting. I think i could say Casino Royale 'sullied' the Brosnan era for me.

    Because after being blown away by Craig's performance and the film itself, the Brosnan era just seemed so lightweight..

    Yes, agreed, especially in those moments where it tried to add a bit of drama; it sort of feels like lip service to the idea. Like Bond and Paris in TND- we'll do a quick scene of 'deep' stuff then get back to the explosions. It feels a bit flimsy now.
    To some extent I feel the same about that scene in Goldfinger where Bond gets a bit tetchy about Jill having been murdered, M threatens to replace him with 008, and then it's all forgotten. Bond nearly has a dramatic moment, but it's over as soon as it's begun.

    But: I like Bond films. I like all of the Bond films. I can find issues here and there with them, but I like all of them (which for some reason feels an oddly controversial thing to say on this Bond film fan page) and what happens in one doesn't make any of the others worse for me. Him shacking up with another hundred women doesn't undermine his falling in love with Tracy.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,259
    mtm wrote: »
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    Yes, agreed, especially in those moments where it tried to add a bit of drama; it sort of feels like lip service to the idea. Like Bond and Paris in TND- we'll do a quick scene of 'deep' stuff then get back to the explosions. It feels a bit flimsy now.
    To some extent I feel the same about that scene in Goldfinger where Bond gets a bit tetchy about Jill having been murdered, M threatens to replace him with 008, and then it's all forgotten. Bond nearly has a dramatic moment, but it's over as soon as it's begun.

    But: I like Bond films. I like all of the Bond films. I can find issues here and there with them, but I like all of them (which for some reason feels an oddly controversial thing to say on this Bond film fan page) and what happens in one doesn't make any of the others worse for me. Him shacking up with another hundred women doesn't undermine his falling in love with Tracy.

    I'm with you on that. I too like all the Bond films and all the actors who have played 007.

    And to nick a quote from Bond youtuber, Joe Darlington "Bond films are like Pizza. Even when they're bad, they're good.."
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,778
    I will take the scene between Bond and Paris over Madeline suddenly stopping and saying "I can't go back to that life" in the middle of the street. Now that was terrible.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,565
    Yes that was a bad moment. I don't think this thread is about listing occasional bad moments in the Bond films though.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,393
    I think it's only us (ardent Bond fans) that can pinpoint the wrongs in Bond films. But for the general public, all 25 Bond films are impeccable and that's a good thing.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,951
    DarthDimi wrote: »
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    @007HallY
    This is an excellent post. "Cubby would never have" and "Fleming would never have" are empty arguments. Both men have been dead for decades.

    There is always a context and a "zeitgeist" within which new Bond films are fabricated. MR is a perfect example—people can scoff at it now, but in '79, with Star Wars mania in full swing and space exploration being a hot topic, it made financial sense. Just like how the Craig era reflected post-9/11 sensibilities with a grittier, more grounded approach. EON has always adapted Bond to fit the zeitgeist, and any speculation about what Fleming or Cubby would have done is just that—speculation.

    We can't truly know how Cubby or Fleming would feel about the Craig era in today's world. Nor can we predict how Cubby would have steered EON through the challenges it faced after CR, or where Fleming might have positioned Bond on the shifting chessboard of 21st-century geopolitics.

    Bond has always evolved with the times, whether for better or worse. The idea that there’s a "pure" version of Bond that must be adhered to ignores how much the series has shifted over the decades. Fleming’s Bond was already different from the cinematic Bond that emerged under Cubby Broccoli, and every era since has been shaped by cultural shifts, audience expectations, and industry trends.

    As fans, we may hope for our beloved series to defy trends—or better yet, to set new ones—but even Bond films exist within Hollywood conventions, influenced by what has made other films successful. No matter how much I want to defend NTTD, I don’t like that Bond was killed. But I’m not the least bit surprised that it happened eventually.

    Was it the Fleming-thing-to-do? We don't know.
    Was it the 2020s-thing-to-do? Sadly, I think so, yes.
    Did it have to happen? Evidently, no.
    Do I wish it didn't happen? Absolutely!
    Can I come to terms with the fact that it happened? Easily.
    Has it tainted my Bond fandom, sullied the Craig era for me, or rendered my expectations of future Bond films cynical? As 'M' would have said, "No, that would be unprofessional."

    Thanks to you both for saying this. If I had a nickel for each time somebody brings up the "Cubby wouldn't have let it happen" excuse or "Cubby would've made sure we had a film every two years" claim, I'd be pretty well off. Not so much here but on other boards I've been on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,565
    Especially as the whole reason there's a hiatus right now can be traced back to Broccoli and Saltzman falling out and Saltzman refusing to sell his half of the rights to Broccoli.
  • DEKE_RIVERSDEKE_RIVERS
    Posts: 1,770
    mtm wrote: »
    Especially as the whole reason there's a hiatus right now can be traced back to Broccoli and Saltzman falling out and Saltzman refusing to sell his half of the rights to Broccoli.

    Nobody is stopping Barbara from making films, she is the one who doesn't want to.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,393
    I have to say, we're even lucky Barbara & Michael became Bond fans and continued the films. So I think it would be unfair to compare their passion for Bond to Cubby. I think just like us, Bond fans...Cubby thought about James Bond every single second. So that made him make Bond films speedily. It's why there was always the title of the next Bond film at the end of every Bond film, during his era. He couldn't wait to do the next one.
  • Reflsin2bourbonsReflsin2bourbons
    Posts: 363
    mtm wrote: »
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    But: I like Bond films. I like all of the Bond films. I can find issues here and there with them, but I like all of them (which for some reason feels an oddly controversial thing to say on this Bond film fan page) and what happens in one doesn't make any of the others worse for me. Him shacking up with another hundred women doesn't undermine his falling in love with Tracy.

    Isn't that a talking point though? That if Connery was in the role it'd be hard to believe him falling in love? I think it's natural that within one interpretation of the character that previous actions will influence future ones. For example, if the Bond-Vesper relationship was poorly done it'd negatively influence callbacks in Spectre and in NTTD.

    This thread really just puts this in retrospect because if the previous films were building up to the finale, it was a wasted build-up. Similar to how YOLT impacted negatively how seriously one could take Blofeld.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,565
    Reflsin2bourbons wrote: »
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    Isn't that a talking point though? That if Connery was in the role it'd be hard to believe him falling in love? I think it's natural that within one interpretation of the character that previous actions will influence future ones.

    I don't really follow your point, sorry?
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 4,892
    Reflsin2bourbons wrote: »
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    Isn't that a talking point though? That if Connery was in the role it'd be hard to believe him falling in love? I think it's natural that within one interpretation of the character that previous actions will influence future ones. For example, if the Bond-Vesper relationship was poorly done it'd negatively influence callbacks in Spectre and in NTTD.

    This thread really just puts this in retrospect because if the previous films were building up to the finale, it was a wasted build-up. Similar to how YOLT impacted negatively how seriously one could take Blofeld.

    I don't think I've ever not taken Blofeld seriously in OHMSS due to YOLT... not sure if that's even been the case with DAF frankly!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 17 Posts: 3,261
    Bond's death in NTTD doesn't cast a shadow over Craig's earlier films, IMO. For me, it's not the death that sullied Dan's tenure - it was EON rowing back to more familiar waters after the brilliance they'd achieved with CR and QOS. I still long for what we might've had if they'd carried on down that less charted path.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,259
    Venutius wrote: »
    Bond's death in NTTD doesn't cast a shadow over Craig's earlier films, IMO. For me, it's not the death that sullied Dan's tenure - it was EON rowing back to more familiar waters after the brilliance they'd achieved with CR and QOS. I still long for what we might've had if they'd carried on down that less charted path.

    Yes, I agree @Venutius

    It was disheartening to see the well worn tropes appear in SF after the clean slate provided by Craig's first two. The less charted path would have been intriguing...
  • 007HallY007HallY
    edited February 17 Posts: 4,892
    I really don't see what more they could have done in the 'style' of CR and QOS. I'd say even that's a misleading way of putting it - the Bond tropes were all there and being consciously introduced in those films anyway, and CR and QOS are both very different Bond movies. They also didn't really have any story to tell in that part of the Craig era.

    Regardless, I don't think it would have been a clever decision to make another QOS. SF was the most popular film of Craig's era and arguably reinvigorated his tenure.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,565
    I loved it, still do.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 17 Posts: 24,556
    LeonardPine wrote: »
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    Yes, I agree @Venutius

    It was disheartening to see the well worn tropes appear in SF after the clean slate provided by Craig's first two. The less charted path would have been intriguing...

    This is an interesting point. I have a complicated relationship with Skyfall. On one hand, I recognize both its brilliance and its immense critical and financial success. On the other, its more "arthouse" approach essentially forced EON to follow that trajectory, leading to Spectre—a film I love but also one that fractured the Bond fan community.

    I also feel that the jump from Bond Begins to Old Man Bond happened too quickly, as if we were denied Craig’s equivalent of Goldfinger and Thunderball.

    To me, Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace form a cohesive unit, and that unit represents the peak of the Craig era. @LeonardPine, you mention the clean slate—something I completely agree with. These films were constructing something genuinely compelling, with a distinctly Bondian optimism toward the future. With Vesper’s death finally cathartically processed, the Bond we know was ready to emerge.

    Skyfall, however, steered the series deeper into grief, trauma, and themes of death, revenge, and past demons. And while I truly enjoy Skyfall, Spectre, and No Time to Die for what they bring, I sometimes can’t help but feel a little saddened by what they left behind. I truly believe that Craig could have been awesome as Bond in an adventure Bond like Thunderball or The Spy Who Loved Me.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 4,892
    The more I think about it, the more I genuinely don't understand the 'old man Bond' criticism. He's in his late 30s in CR/QOS, so it makes sense he's approaching middle age by SF. He's basically Brosnan Bond's age in GE, and there's a lot of overlap in terms of ideas with both films.

    I'd also argue SF is Craig's GF or TB. It's pretty unashamed in its Bondian-ness, and for me bears more resemblance to those two films than QOS does. I'd also say seeing a jaded, injured Bond come back as the hero we know makes it more compelling than just going through the motions in a QOS style adventure (without the added storyline of Vesper/anything quite as interesting). Anyway, I don't think the point of the Craig era was seeing the character 'become Bond'. He always was Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,997
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I sometimes can’t help but feel a little saddened by what they left behind. I truly believe that Craig could have been awesome as Bond in an adventure Bond like Thunderball or The Spy Who Loved Me.
    I guess that's why I enjoy SP so much- it's the least (for lack of a better word) angsty IMO. Okay, yeah, 'the author of all your pain' crap, but that nonsense aside, it was still an adventure not tied directly to LOSS. No one he loved died in it. Unless you count him not loving himself in NTTD.... (I'm a cheeky monkey here).
    :P
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,257
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  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 875
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
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    6CJ3Y4JDSBEA3GBXB6BAPHZKVM.jpg
    "What, already?"
  • Reflsin2bourbonsReflsin2bourbons
    Posts: 363
    mtm wrote: »
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    I don't really follow your point, sorry?

    Right the point is that each film of an actor's run influences the other Bond films by the same actor. That's why often some say we were better off with Lazenby as Bond, because Connery wouldn't be believable as lovestruck.
    007HallY wrote: »
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    I don't think I've ever not taken Blofeld seriously in OHMSS due to YOLT... not sure if that's even been the case with DAF frankly!

    Retroactively, I personally find faceless Blofeld a bit dampened with YOLT
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited February 19 Posts: 4,639
    When OHMSS was released, it was the most thoroughly-panned Bond ever.

    Decades later, it has been reassessed and is now considered a Top 10 (if not Top 5) Bond film.

    Likewise, I really think that NTTD (despite being better received by critics than OHMSS) will eventually be considered a masterpiece. I really do. The film is so daring and ahead of its time. And once we get a couple more new Bonds and all new storylines, we'll really be able to look back on the Craig era as one that challenged fans. (I'm 57 and hope to still be around.) It didn't always work. But the five films will be viewed as trailblazers.
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    Posts: 2,168
    Despite my irritation with the end, NTTD is not a bad film. But daring? Not in my film experience. Ahead of its time? Nothing about the film fits my definition of the term.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,565
    Reflsin2bourbons wrote: »
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    Right the point is that each film of an actor's run influences the other Bond films by the same actor. That's why often some say we were better off with Lazenby as Bond, because Connery wouldn't be believable as lovestruck.

    No I dint think I agree with that. Roger turning all serious in FYEO doesn’t undermine the jokiness of MR for me, for example.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,639
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Despite my irritation with the end, NTTD is not a bad film. But daring? Not in my film experience. Ahead of its time? Nothing about the film fits my definition of the term.

    NTTD killed off James Bond. It gave Bond a child. And the five films gave us a far more "personal" side of Bond than we ever had before. Given that many viewers/fans were not prepared for it is what makes it ahead of its time. Add to this that SF was a James Bond "film" before such a thing was a thing. Now it will always be a thing, for better or worse.
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