The theories of Bond films! How did Trevelyan plan and fake his death?

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,647
    thedove wrote: »
    Thanks for your suggestion that I refrain from using ChatGPT. I shall take that under advisement. Yes ChatGPT is flawed, just like the humans that use it.

    I suppose there is a dig there about me and my lack of education? Or are you insinuating that Americans are likely to get dumber with no Department of Education?

    I suppose you are right when I think of the black hair or brown hair villains it likely will rival if not surpass the blond contingent. Maybe because they are lighter haired they are standing out more?

    For Europeans a government institution (department) that organises at least a certain level of education is so self-evident, that what's happening in the USA is astounding, tbh. So no, it wasn't a dig at you personally, as I appreciate and value your posts (and topics) extremely high. You contribute far more to these forums than I do.

    Sorry about the chatGPT remark, but it's part of my professional field, and it bothers me that so many use this technology to get 'answers', where it basically just cobbles together answers from everywhere, not knowing if they're right or wrong. ChatGPT doesn't know the intrinsic vaalue of words, but as it comes over as 'human', our brain is tricked in thinking it makes sense.
    That doesn't mean the technology isn't helping, it is. But you need to know where it is trustworthy, and where it isn't.
    Sorry, I can lecture about this all day, I'll stop here.
    It could however be the start of an amazingly interesting plot for a Bond villain. Alas, the villains have taken over Bond these days.

    Right, now, back to the question: what's the reason for Holly to behave like that? I don't know, it's for me one of the major drawbacks of the film. No chemistry between them and Bond starts out utterly stupid. As if a British government official would ever behave like that.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,260
    I don't know any doctor jokes.

  • Posts: 1,716
    I don't know any doctor jokes.

    Really ? Not even about the guy who visited the proctologist ? Doc says "Turn around, bend over and try to relax, and please note it is not unusual to get an erection during this exam." Guy says, "What do you mean ? I don't have an erection !" The doctor says "I didn't mean you."
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited March 27 Posts: 5,690
    Thanks for supplying me with some theories on why there is antagonistic feelings between the characters. Bond being a dick seems to top the list.

    Okay I want to move on to one that @Ludovico suggested. I hadn't thought it before.

    It concerns our old friend Blofeld.

    First introduced in FRWL and then spotted again in TB Blofeld is seen in the shadows. He never see his face but can clearly see his hands and his fashion. In both of these appearances he is seen wearing a conventional suit. Dark colour suit, white dress shirt and tie.

    However when he is fully seen in YOLT he's changed his look to a Nehru suit. This look is further repeated in DAF. He veers slightly off course in OHMSS to a few different looks. But he is never seen in a conventional suit again, including in Craig's version of Blofeld.

    The theory we would like to know, why the change in look from FRWL to YOLT? What prompted this change in fashion for Ernst Stravo Blofeld?

    Feel free to approach this from a production or story choice or a theory in world for the switch in styles.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited March 27 Posts: 3,865
    Is this explained in the books?

    Anyway, maybe he wants to distinguish himself from others, that's the only way I see it 🤷.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,260
    The result of traumatic experience and personal injury.

    From an unfortunate failed attempt to save the original Blofeld's Cat who fell into an aquarium with Siamese fighting fish. Frenzied attack. Frenzied incomplete cat rescue. Scars. Emotional fallout. Had to find another white, blue-eyed Persian cat. Not easy.

    Changed his ideology. Or at least his fashion sense.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,621
    The passive-aggression on this board is astounding. Somebody's intelligence is questioned because they use a variation on spelling which is perfectly valid. Blonde or Blond are interchangeable. People need to get a life.

    I think it's from the French. Putting an "e" on the end of an adjective makes it feminine.
  • Posts: 15,474
    Many reasons, both from a Doylist and Watsonian perspective:
    -Blofeld has to look different from Bond and other people surrounding him. He has to look distinctive even when his face isn't shown or is not in closeup. Hence a radically different outfit.
    -The Nehru suit gives him a somewhat mysterious and exotic, as a White man and a Westerner in Japan, wearing something definitely "foreign" to him.
    -It also looks suitably militaristic.
    -Blofeld from YOLT onwards wears mostly beige/brown clothes. Again, very different from Bond. The colours are a sign of wealth, but suitably discreet and old fashioned. Like old wood. Blofeld doesn't stand out, yet he's there, solidly established in his surroundings.
    -It's not flashy or vain, very sober.
    -He's wearing a camel hair suit in the novel TB, if I'm not mistaken. The colour of course would be similar to what we've seen in the movies from YOLT to DAF. A fashion choice that I have seen in a few pulp fiction stories: camel hair jackets and/or brown clothes seems to be liked by many big bad mobsters. So the brown clothes harks back to this old trope and may be partially inspired by the novel TB.
  • edited March 27 Posts: 4,920
    After TB Blofeld had to slash his clothing budget due to SPECTRE's failed bomb plan and the expenses of building a lair in a Japanese volcano. No more expensive tailored black suits for Blofeld. Mandatory and cost effective new uniforms for any SPECTRE workers on permitted premises.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,865
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Many reasons, both from a Doylist and Watsonian perspective:
    -Blofeld has to look different from Bond and other people surrounding him. He has to look distinctive even when his face isn't shown or is not in closeup. Hence a radically different outfit.
    -The Nehru suit gives him a somewhat mysterious and exotic, as a White man and a Westerner in Japan, wearing something definitely "foreign" to him.
    -It also looks suitably militaristic.
    -Blofeld from YOLT onwards wears mostly beige/brown clothes. Again, very different from Bond. The colours are a sign of wealth, but suitably discreet and old fashioned. Like old wood. Blofeld doesn't stand out, yet he's there, solidly established in his surroundings.
    -It's not flashy or vain, very sober.
    -He's wearing a camel hair suit in the novel TB, if I'm not mistaken. The colour of course would be similar to what we've seen in the movies from YOLT to DAF. A fashion choice that I have seen in a few pulp fiction stories: camel hair jackets and/or brown clothes seems to be liked by many big bad mobsters. So the brown clothes harks back to this old trope and may be partially inspired by the novel TB.

    This is a great observation, and yes, it kinda draw a bit from the novel TB.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 62
    How does Blofeld not recognize Bond after meeting him in Japan just 2 short years ago?

    He does recognise him but plays the game. The Augsburg quote is just showboating.

    Also, with his scars, he just had on e of those DAF mudbaths.
  • Posts: 15,474
    Thanks. And I'd also add that brown and beige can be seen as "negative" colours: the colours of mud, dirt, etc. Kind of ironic that a man named Blue Town or Blue Field, in effect, is wearing brown.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,690
    Interesting discussion. Over the years I have come to appreciate the wardrobe choices of the characters in film. I think of Mr. White in Breaking Bad whose clothes changed over the course of the series.

    On to another thing that requires a theory.

    One of my favourite films in the series FRWL. The character of Kerim Bey is wonderful and one of the reasons I love the film so much. As we know, Kerim claims that all his key employees are his sons. Which is a wonderful character touch, but I have wondered over the years.

    Is Kerim saying this in a general sense, are some of these "sons" maybe nephews, or close family friends? I believe we see 4-5 different men as his sons. One wonders the following:
    • did he have any daughters?
    • do all his sons have to work for him or did he allow them to chase other pursuits?
    • I shall delicately say Kerim entertained women at the office which his sons would have to know about, does this mean he was a bachelor and all the sons were from different moms? Or did his sons just turn a blind eye to his escapades?

    What is your theory about Kerim Bey and his sons?
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 62
    I'd say Kerim Bey would see his sons as those loyal to him and his organisation, but is a playboy enough to sire multiple sons. Any daughter would be locked away until her wedding day. Old school.

  • edited March 28 Posts: 6,098
    did he have any daughters?

    According to the comic book series Permission to Die, yes. Her name is Luludi, AKA Botanee, and she helped Bond during a mission :

    https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Botanee

    Botanee_Bey_-_Profile.png
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,647
    Ineresting question. My wife is from Ukraine and over there it is common to call cousins 'brothers' and 'sisters'. At the same time I wouldn't be suprised Kerim having 8-10 kids with his wife.
    He might see entertaining the lady (ies) who are send to him as 'work', as a way to keep the opposition busy thinking they can get info on/from him. It clearly is a risk as well, as he was supposed to be 'digging the salt mines' on the bed next to the wall (and indeed, the Soviets wouldn't care about losing the lady in question if the attack was successfull). So perhaps a professional weakness.
    Would his sons/cousins talk about it to their mother? Highly unlikely. He's clearly 'the boss', and again, in a cultural perspective, I think the 'sons' would deem it normal behaviour.
  • Posts: 15,474
    I think Kerim Bey has many sons, although probably not as many as he leads on.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,690
    Interesting thoughts about our favourite head of station T.

    Lets fast forward to a more recent, though is a 30 year old movie more recent?

    I am talking GE. I love this film and yet...one thing has bothered me.

    The "death" of Alec Trevelyan. Captured as double-o-6 Alec is facing a gun at the hands of General Ourumov. Bond plays his bluff and Ourumov caps Alec and he slumps to the ground.

    What is your theory around this staged death?

    Was it Alec's plan all along to be captured by the General and "shot". Did they plan for Bond to see the death? Or did they get lucky that Bond witnessed the death? How is Ourumov's gun able to kill one man and yet not wound another?

    Bonus, how did Alec get scarred on the face only? Wouldn't an explosion do more than scar his face?

    Lets hear your theories on how did Trevelyan plan and fake his death?
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 62
    thedove wrote: »
    What is your theory around this staged death?

    GE is a treasure, but its PTS makes no sense.

    I always had it having somehow survived the blast, the forsaken Alex was imprisoned, but escaped capture thanks to Ouromov, who used him as an enforcer.

    As time elapsed, Trev grew more powerful, taking on powerful Moscovian gangs with a barely concealed Yorkshire accent.

    He outgrew Ouromov. Now the hunter became the hunted.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,647
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting thoughts about our favourite head of station T.

    Lets fast forward to a more recent, though is a 30 year old movie more recent?

    I am talking GE. I love this film and yet...one thing has bothered me.

    The "death" of Alec Trevelyan. Captured as double-o-6 Alec is facing a gun at the hands of General Ourumov. Bond plays his bluff and Ourumov caps Alec and he slumps to the ground.

    What is your theory around this staged death?

    Was it Alec's plan all along to be captured by the General and "shot". Did they plan for Bond to see the death? Or did they get lucky that Bond witnessed the death? How is Ourumov's gun able to kill one man and yet not wound another?

    Bonus, how did Alec get scarred on the face only? Wouldn't an explosion do more than scar his face?

    Lets hear your theories on how did Trevelyan plan and fake his death?

    Alec saw the mission as a way to defect to the USSR, so he could betray England. After all, that's what 'mad little Alec', our Lienz Cossack, was all about. Hints are given throughout the film. Bond notices it's too quiet. Alec tells him it's luck and fate, knowing very well it's a set-up. He was going to me captured by Ourumov, who was expecting him, so he could defect.
    All went according to plan. Ourumov just fires the gun close to Alec's head, he doesn't kill him. But Alec plays his part so from Bond's perspective it is real. But Alec didn't count on Bond setting the timers to 3 minutes instead of the six he thought he'd have to get out of the building. Hence the scar on his face. He was already going out, but the explosion caught up with him.
    But his information about the UK and MI6 no doubt would've helped him, and Ourumov in his career.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 31 Posts: 17,594
    It's a great question, I have no idea of the answer! The puzzle is whether they want Bond to witness it or not: they do seem to be trying their very best to kill him, but it makes more sense that they'd want him to escape if the plan was to stage Alec's death. But then if they want to kill him, why not just shoot him when he comes out with his hands up? Or even why didn't Alec just shoot him in the face when he met him in the storeroom? But if they didn't want him to die, why do they keep firing machine guns at him?
    As CmrRoss says, Ourumov could have fired his gun to the side and made it look real from the angle Bond is looking I guess.

    As for the scars, I reckon it's not from the explosion at all (which he was out the door for) but from when Bond dropped a ton of gas canisters onto him and all the Russians on his way out of the facility! Imagine getting one of those in the face while you're lying on the ground with your eyes shut! :D
  • Posts: 15,474
    Trevelyan was in touch with Orumov beforehand and made a deal with him. He knew Orumov was if not corrupted, then easily corruptible. And a coward, easily bullied and manipulated. Trevelyan thought, rightly, that the USSR was on its last legs. So before 007 and 006 hit the Arkangel facility, they emptied it from an important part of its chemical weapons, which they then sold on the black market, Trevelyan slowly building his Janus persona and his syndicate. He was leaving the place when he got caught in the explosion, but fairly out of its core, so he managed to narrowly escape, at the price of some severe third degree burning, on his face and probably elsewhere. As for how faking his death was executed... I'd like to think a minimal number of people were in on it. Maybe only Orumov, although how they pulled such a charade I have no idea.
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