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SPECTRE: TOP 5 elements "SPECTRE" must have to tackle all criticism that surrounded "SKYFALL"

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  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I agree that the MI6 regulars get way too much screentime now but not sure it was a problem in the Brosnan era.

    In TWINE M is used more sure but at the time, it was an original idea, having her be part of the plot.

    In GE she's more fleshed out than Lee or Browns M and her relationship with Bond is clearly different but she doesn't have much screentime, she's not an important part of the plot and she doesn't leave the office. In TND we cur back to her often in the PTS but she's not speaking to Bond. Robinson is at first but once shit starts going down and bullets start flying, Bond is on his own, as he should be. Then after the titles we have the standard briefing scene and again, M is not featured at all after this.

    In DAD she's featured a bit more but still not to the level of TWINE, QOS and SF, and again it made sense in the context of the plot.

    And then Q and Moneypenny in the Brosnan Bond films aren't used more often than they ever were, they get the usual amount of screentime. So I don't see how this whole team dynamic thing is something that started in the Brosnan era. It's a Craig era staple.

    I agree though that it's getting ridiculous now and I'd much prefer to see Bond on his own again. I think the worst offender is QOS, Calvin Dyson pointed this out in his review: M gets more screentime than ever for no apparent reason. She jets off to Italy, Bolivia, Russia, etc, getting her hands dirty when she really (as the head of MI6) had no need to. There's no story reason for her being used more and you get the sense that the only reason she's flying all over the world following Bond is because Judi Dench is playing her.

    Just another reason to dislike QOS ;) At least TWINE and Skyfall had a good story reason for her being used more.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Fair point. I do think TWINE is really where the rot began to set in though.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited July 2014 Posts: 15,124
    Question: how much on his own is Bond in DN, TB and YOLT, among others? in DN he ends up truly on his own in Crab Key, but only after Quarrel gets killed. In TB he has a whole team with him when he is in Nassau. And M traveling around really started with YOLT, when he had his whole office in a submarine! I am not saying secondary character did not ended up getting more screentime during the Brosnan and Craig era, but let's put things into perspective.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Good point but I guess, those instances never felt as intrusive as they did with Dench coming into the fold, which really sort of started with TWINE and even then, it still sort of worked as it was a fresh take n using the character but after that M and MI6 were popping up everywhere. M and Tanner showing up in Bolivia to reprimand Bond was the apex of such intrusions.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Question: how much on his own is Bond in DN, TB and YOLT, among others? in DN he ends up truly on his own in Crab Key, but only after Quarrel gets killed. In TB he has a whole team with him when he is in Nassau. And M traveling around really started with YOLT, when he had his whole office in a submarine! I am not saying secondary character did not ended up getting more screentime during the Brosnan and Craig era, but let's put things into perspective.

    I don't think there is a comparison for YOLT, as M is only seen in the submarine at the start and end of the film. In Thunderball, he is on his own a lot of the time: such as infiltrating Palmyra and finding the atomic bombs himself. Of course, Bond has allies and assistants in all the films, but it is true that M does feature a little too much during the Craig era.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited July 2014 Posts: 15,124
    I know M does not show up much in YOLT, but his showing up in an office in a submarine is utterly contrived. And Tiger Tanaka and his service are often around Bond. I know that in TB he is often on his own, he still is in a large company quite often. M's appearance in the field has been done way before TWINE. Not as often before, but there are precedent.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Today, probably in the evening, I will add another TOP 5-update.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Anon wrote: »
    1. Needs to have some real world glamour.
    2. Needs to avoid yet another disappointing 'third-act'. Maybe have a two parter with a cliffhanger at the end of first film.
    3. David Arnold to do the score and not let some dozy music supervisor cut it to fit.
    4. No quips unless they're really really good.
    5. Bond should be more of a bastard.

    I think these are all interesting ideas, especially 4.

    CR had a decent third act, but I will grant you TND, TWINE, DAD, QoS, and SF.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Gustav_Graves wrote:
    So, here is the list of 'Most frequent mentionings of aspects/elements that could be improved for Bond 24' as of November 18th 2013:

    29 MENTIONINGS -> 'GUNBARREL BACK AT THE START'
    18 mentionings --> 'Return of more psychotic Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Christoph Waltz?)'
    17 mentionings --> 'James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes'
    17 mentionings --> 'Bond bedding a real Bond-girl in the end'
    16 mentionings --> 'Simple, plain mission briefing in M's office'
    16 mentionings --> 'Better memorable music score/No Thomas Newman'
    13 mentionings --> 'Larger role for Felix Leiter'
    09 mentionings --> 'Time to soak up the cultures of escapist locations, smarter use of it'
    09 mentionings --> 'Better fist fights'
    08 mentionings --> 'Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)'
    ====================================================
    07 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate QUANTUM'
    06 mentionings --> 'Bring in Formula One racing, new kind of carchase ('Rush')'
    06 mentionings --> 'More clever, less brutal action'
    05 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'
    05 mentionings --> 'Better screenplay/more effective one-liners for Bond'
    05 mentionings --> 'A straightforward grand escapist Bond adventure'
    05 mentionings --> 'More funny Q-gadgets'
    04 mentionings --> 'Return of Barry's 007 theme'
    04 mentionings --> 'Lush, escapist production design'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring back SKYFALL-crew, including director Sam Mendes'
    03 mentionings --> 'Commander James Bond 007 in naval uniform'
    03 mentionings --> 'Wodka Martini, shaken......not stirred!'
    03 mentionings --> 'More fun & escapism!'
    02 mentionings --> 'Bring in new/previous crew, including director Martin Campbell'
    02 mentionings --> 'Less CGI that is too obvious'
    02 mentionings --> 'Big overblown finale in the end'
    02 mentionings --> 'A dinner with the villain (Dr.No/Kamal Khan)'
    02 mentionings --> 'Better use of Monty Norman's James Bond Theme'
    02 mentionings --> 'Different Bond-actor/replace Daniel Craig'
    02 mentionings --> 'Yes! Bring back the Aston Martin or another 2-door car'

    01 mentionings --> 'A Gala Brandt story arc'
    01 mentionings --> 'A villain-/ally-mixup, like in FYEO'
    01 mentionings --> 'Different cinematography/replace Roger Deakins'
    01 mentionings --> 'Let Daniel Craig carry the film completely/less ensemble cast'
    01 mentionings --> 'More screentime for Bond vs. villain'
    01 mentionings --> 'Use of Fleming's novels for inspiration, like YOLT'
    01 mentionings --> 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE'
    01 mentionings --> 'Re-visiting Tracy's and/or Vesper's grave'
    01 mentionings --> 'A well executed escape scene'
    01 mentionings --> 'More espionage thriller-style'
    01 mentionings --> 'Beardless Daniel Craig'
    01 mentionings --> 'Flashbacks of Judi Dench'
    01 mentionings --> 'A Fleming title/chaptertitle for Bond 24 film title'
    01 mentionings --> 'Bond playing Texas Hold'Em or Chemin de Fer / Baccarat'
    01 mentionings --> 'Rock themed song'
    01 mentionings --> 'Make Bond trend-setting again, not trend-follower (stop Nolan-esque)'
    01 mentionings --> 'Avoid the usual disappointing 'third-act''
    01 mentionings --> 'More important Bond-girl'


    Well, it seems that our common "wish" at no# 3, "James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes", is slowly becoming reality guys ;-):

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond-24-report-20140820-austria-locations?t=&s=&id=03733

    And perhaps this wish too: "Time to soak up the cultures of escapist locations, smarter use of it"
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,585
    And we can officially rule out 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE', which is incorrect BTW, as we do see Bond's DB5 in TWINE, if only for a second. :-B ;)
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    QBranch wrote: »
    And we can officially rule out 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE', which is incorrect BTW, as we do see Bond's DB5 in TWINE, if only for a second. :-B ;)

    Well yeah, you're right. But serious, don't you agree? In all Bond films post-Brosnan/Craig there were several films without any Aston Martin or any other car. Even in Fleming's novels Bond only got a Aston Martin in TB no? Not to mention his Bentley.

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,585
    Yes, I've been saying for a while now that I'm tired of seeing Astons- perhaps to the point of not wanting to see a Bond car at all i.e. MR, YOLT etc. However, I would like to see a return of Bond's personal non-car vehicles, in the vein of Little Nellie, or boat from MR.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    Surely this is more a wish list now than criticism of SF. I mean, people criticized SF for not having Bond in Navy uniform, or not seeing Formula 1 racing? Really?
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Wishlists are there to channel criticism is some concrete tangible solutions. Or....to give those who are responsible for the Bond franchise an insight what goes around among the fan community. Criticism from fans is taken more seriously by the Bond producers then we think. Even Barbara Broccoli once said that the four Oscars Bond won so far are still less important to what fans want. And although 'skyfall' for me is a near-perfect Bond film, it still isn't perfect. So this topic can also channel perfection, even if perfection can never be fully achieved :-).
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    But Bond in a navy uniform, really, was it something SF lacked?
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Gustav_Graves wrote:
    So, here is the list of 'Most frequent mentionings of aspects/elements that could be improved for Bond 24' as of November 18th 2013:

    29 MENTIONINGS -> 'GUNBARREL BACK AT THE START'
    18 mentionings --> 'Return of more psychotic Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Christoph Waltz?)'
    17 mentionings --> 'James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes'
    17 mentionings --> 'Bond bedding a real Bond-girl in the end'
    16 mentionings --> 'Simple, plain mission briefing in M's office'
    16 mentionings --> 'Better memorable music score/No Thomas Newman'
    13 mentionings --> 'Larger role for Felix Leiter'
    09 mentionings --> 'Time to soak up the cultures of escapist locations, smarter use of it'
    09 mentionings --> 'Better fist fights'
    08 mentionings --> 'Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)'
    ====================================================
    07 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate QUANTUM'
    06 mentionings --> 'Bring in Formula One racing, new kind of carchase ('Rush')'
    06 mentionings --> 'More clever, less brutal action'
    05 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'
    05 mentionings --> 'Better screenplay/more effective one-liners for Bond'
    05 mentionings --> 'A straightforward grand escapist Bond adventure'
    05 mentionings --> 'More funny Q-gadgets'
    04 mentionings --> 'Return of Barry's 007 theme'
    04 mentionings --> 'Lush, escapist production design'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring back SKYFALL-crew, including director Sam Mendes'
    03 mentionings --> 'Commander James Bond 007 in naval uniform'
    03 mentionings --> 'Wodka Martini, shaken......not stirred!'
    03 mentionings --> 'More fun & escapism!'
    02 mentionings --> 'Bring in new/previous crew, including director Martin Campbell'
    02 mentionings --> 'Less CGI that is too obvious'
    02 mentionings --> 'Big overblown finale in the end'
    02 mentionings --> 'A dinner with the villain (Dr.No/Kamal Khan)'
    02 mentionings --> 'Better use of Monty Norman's James Bond Theme'
    02 mentionings --> 'Different Bond-actor/replace Daniel Craig'
    02 mentionings --> 'Yes! Bring back the Aston Martin or another 2-door car'

    01 mentionings --> 'A Gala Brandt story arc'
    01 mentionings --> 'A villain-/ally-mixup, like in FYEO'
    01 mentionings --> 'Different cinematography/replace Roger Deakins'
    01 mentionings --> 'Let Daniel Craig carry the film completely/less ensemble cast'
    01 mentionings --> 'More screentime for Bond vs. villain'
    01 mentionings --> 'Use of Fleming's novels for inspiration, like YOLT'
    01 mentionings --> 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE'
    01 mentionings --> 'Re-visiting Tracy's and/or Vesper's grave'
    01 mentionings --> 'A well executed escape scene'
    01 mentionings --> 'More espionage thriller-style'
    01 mentionings --> 'Beardless Daniel Craig'
    01 mentionings --> 'Flashbacks of Judi Dench'
    01 mentionings --> 'A Fleming title/chaptertitle for Bond 24 film title'
    01 mentionings --> 'Bond playing Texas Hold'Em or Chemin de Fer / Baccarat'
    01 mentionings --> 'Rock themed song'
    01 mentionings --> 'Make Bond trend-setting again, not trend-follower (stop Nolan-esque)'
    01 mentionings --> 'Avoid the usual disappointing 'third-act''
    01 mentionings --> 'More important Bond-girl'


    Andddd, it seems that our common "wish" at no# 10, "Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)", is also becoming reality ;-):

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond-24-report-20140822-henchman-casting?t=&s=&id=03734
  • ChangChang
    Posts: 107
    Keep M in the office. No "field work".
  • patricepatrice
    Posts: 6
    A large scale battle at the end is something thats been missing for a long time.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    patrice wrote: »
    A large scale battle at the end is something thats been missing for a long time.

    Only if it makes sense, in CR the sinking house was sh&te.

    In SF the final battle was just the result of stupid actions both on 007 and M's account. By all means the result should have Bond booted out of the service.

  • Matt_HelmMatt_Helm
    Posts: 908
    SaintMark wrote: »
    patrice wrote: »
    A large scale battle at the end is something thats been missing for a long time.

    Only if it makes sense, in CR the sinking house was sh&te.

    In SF the final battle was just the result of stupid actions both on 007 and M's account. By all means the result should have Bond booted out of the service.

    Well,if any Bond (except Moore in AVTAK of course) looked ready for retirement it was certainly Craig. I am still shocked how old a 45 year old man can look!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Dude, if you or I would look that good at the age of 45, we'd be very VERY happy!
  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Dude, if you or I would look that good at the age of 45, we'd be very VERY happy!

    Indeed. I'd be very pleased to look that way when I'm 45.

    Regarding his look in Skfayll, though, the more ragged look worked for the film, as it's about pitching Bond and MI6 as older relics in a changing world with different threats and so forth. It makes sense to make Bond look older as a result of that, IMO. That said, though, the decision to go in that direction with the story just off of the heels of two films of "rookie Bond" made absolutely no sense to me.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @dalton, that I most certainly agree with. If the parallel makes any sense, we went from DN and FRWL to NSNA. Where's Craig's GF or TB, you know, Bond at his physical prime? To pretend that the guy who's just matured as an MI6 agent is now suddenly a fossil ready to be put in a museum, seems a little drastic. But then of course Brosnan's Bond was called a relic too, and in fact in his first outing as Bond. ;-)
  • daltondalton
    Posts: 1,631
    @DarthDimi, that's true about Brosnan, although it made a lot more sense in his case than it did in Craig's. At least he was playing the same Bond that the others had played up to that point, and with the whole six year hiatus and people questioning Bond's place in the world after the failure of Licence to Kill, it made some kind of sense.

    And, you're right, what was Craig's Bond up to in his "prime". My feeling is, if you're going to reboot a franchise, then reboot it all the way. M should have been recast, some of the trappings that make a Bond film a "Bond film" should have fallen by the wayside, and they should have really started out by crafting a series of films about Bond starting out as a Double-oh and then progressing through his career, perhaps ending with adaptations of You Only Live Twice and The Man with the Golden Gun. Instead, they go from rookie Bond in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to old man Bond in a film that is an odd mixture of elements from GoldenEye, The World is Not Enough and Ian Fleming's You Only Live Twice and The Man With the Golden Gun.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    The thing that bothers me is, Craig didn't look as old to me as most people are making he out he was, he just looked tired, weary and haggered and when his hair lacked any product the way it looked gave him an almost ill-favoured appearance but to me, not once did he look uncle old man James. What makes it worse is, physically he looked in peak condition, which makes SF even more ludicrous than it already is.
  • Matt_HelmMatt_Helm
    Posts: 908
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Dude, if you or I would look that good at the age of 45, we'd be very VERY happy!

    I am 45 and if I looked like him I would feel VERY troubled! I'm not talking about his body though. I'd be quite pleased with that one,that's for sure (even so mine doesn't look to shabby I might add)!
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Not that I've disliked any of Craig's last three (they've all had their strengths...as well as their shortcomings), but for his fourth, his Thunderball, I hope they continue in the spirit I suggest:

    1. A brilliantly-designed, jaw-dropping, practically-created lair worthy of Ken Adam himself, where Bond will lead an all-out raid, guns blazing, mercenaries rappelling, helmeted thugs hurling over railings from grenade blasts, for the grand finale. Countdown to destruction a must.
    2. The Bond babe to survive through to the end credits...and still be with Bond...and in a romantic capacity. Water nearby would be nice, but I'll take what I can get.
    3. Gunbarrel where it belongs.
    4. Bond enjoying life for a bit (cards, cars, gals, drinks, food, culture, simply being awesome at anything and everything and yet shrugging it off like it ain't no big thing)—as opposed to enjoying death, I guess. :P
    5. A classic henchman who'll give Craig a truly memorable physical fight or two / fun, inventive gadgets that save the day in creative, rewarding ways / a big, brassy, theme-rich score that celebrates James Bond's dangerous, sophisticated, jet-setting lifestyle.

    Something like Thunderball mixed with You Only Live Twice would do me nicely.

    Oh, and stunning location shooting that really shows off some spectacular areas of the world. They could be cityscapes, alpine settings, jungle, oceanic, rural. I don't mind where. Just show us the world like never before.
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Dude, if you or I would look that good at the age of 45, we'd be very VERY happy!

    I am 45 and if I looked like him I would feel VERY troubled! I'm not talking about his body though. I'd be quite pleased with that one,that's for sure (even so mine doesn't look to shabby I might add)!

    Put your money where your mouth is and show us a photo of you then so that we may pass comment on you.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 2014 Posts: 24,183
    @WillyGalore, shall we turn that challenge into a thread of its own? We, the males on this forum, can show the goods and others can judge how Craigian we look. ;-)
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    I can assure you @DarthDimi that if my "goods" looked Craigan, I'd see a doctor pronto! ;-)
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