Multiple people killed by gunman in an American church

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    There is something called the US Constitution and 2nd Amendment.
    So, by extension, in the coming eras the 2nd Amendment will also apply to blasters & phasers-?
    So, by your question does the first amendment apply to computers?
    Answering a question with a question? That's not discussion. I give up.
  • Posts: 686
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    There is something called the US Constitution and 2nd Amendment.
    So, by extension, in the coming eras the 2nd Amendment will also apply to blasters & phasers-?
    So, by your question does the first amendment apply to computers?
    Answering a question with a question? That's not discussion. I give up.
    Because the question is causing cognitive dissonance. Yes the 2nd amendment applies to "laser weapons" . Now your turn.


  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Why would the question cause cognitive dissonance?
  • Posts: 15,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't think the US will ever give up its 2nd amendment rights. So even if there were gun control laws someone will find a way to get a gun into the hands of someone who wants to use it for nefarious purposes.

    It is not possible to get a zero risk system in a zero risk society. But there are far more massacres of this scale in the US than other Western countries with stricter gun laws. This is not incidental. A madman may find access to guns even with gun control, but he will find this more difficult and he may get caught more easily in the process. Let's not forget also the number of deaths by guns done by members of criminal gangs or s
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    Do the research yourself.

    12,000 gun deaths vs. 700 + bicycle fatalities?

    well let's ban them!!!

    33,000 were killed by autos, do you want to ban cars?

    What is the use of a car? What is the use of a gun? And the use of cars is regulated: you cannot drink and drive, there are speed limits, etc. It does not prevent a misuse of cars, but imagine if no rules applied to ownership and use of cars. How about bringing some more regulations and stricter rules to improve and modernized the second amendment, written more than 200 years ago.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    There's been 2 new shootings last night, one in Detroit one in Philadelphia. 1 dead, 16 wounded including 1 baby.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As I don't live in America, so I simply can't understand this obsession
    with guns. To be honest Some people give the impression they love their
    Weapons more than their own kids or family.
    Even the most minor controls on gun ownership ( sensible, minor controls)
    Has people ranting like the combatants in " The Purge" films , " It's my right !"
    Only my opinion but Britain has some very sensible gun laws. You can still go hunting or target shooting etc. You just can't have a collection of automatic rifles,
    Or Machine guns.
  • Posts: 315
    Just to clarify a few things. Just a guess on my part on the suspect's mental status.

    The Second Amendment of the U. S. Constitution:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Those who oppose gun regulations always overlook 'well regulated' and 'militia'. They believe every mouth-breathing, knuckle dragger should have no restrictions and be able to have military assault weapons. And Americans own about 42% of all the civilian owned guns on the entire planet.

    To this false argument of equating gun deaths with other transportation accidents, autos must be registered and drivers must be licensed.
  • There's been 2 new shootings last night, one in Detroit one in Philadelphia. 1 dead, 16 wounded including 1 baby.

    We should invent a gun for babies, so they can defend themselves ?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    FLeiter wrote: »
    A well regulated militia
    The NRA hates this word. They love the amendment, but just can't see this word in it somehow.
  • Posts: 15,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FLeiter wrote: »
    A well regulated militia
    The NRA hates this word. They love the amendment, but just can't see this word in it somehow.

    They can't read it seems.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    There is something called the US Constitution and 2nd Amendment.
    So, by extension, in the coming eras the 2nd Amendment will also apply to blasters & phasers-?
    So, by your question does the first amendment apply to computers?
    Answering a question with a question? That's not discussion. I give up.
    Because the question is causing cognitive dissonance. Yes the 2nd amendment applies to "laser weapons" . Now your turn.


    Does that also extend to sharks with frickin laser beams for swimming pool defence?

    Jesus Christ if this guy is for real he terrifies me.
  • Posts: 686
    FLeiter wrote: »
    Just to clarify a few things. Just a guess on my part on the suspect's mental status.

    The Second Amendment of the U. S. Constitution:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Those who oppose gun regulations always overlook 'well regulated' and 'militia'. They believe every mouth-breathing, knuckle dragger should have no restrictions and be able to have military assault weapons. And Americans own about 42% of all the civilian owned guns on the entire planet.

    To this false argument of equating gun deaths with other transportation accidents, autos must be registered and drivers must be licensed.

    It has nothing to do with a "regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state", the US Supreme Court has ruled on this.
  • Posts: 686
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    There is something called the US Constitution and 2nd Amendment.
    So, by extension, in the coming eras the 2nd Amendment will also apply to blasters & phasers-?
    So, by your question does the first amendment apply to computers?
    Answering a question with a question? That's not discussion. I give up.
    Because the question is causing cognitive dissonance. Yes the 2nd amendment applies to "laser weapons" . Now your turn.


    Does that also extend to sharks with frickin laser beams for swimming pool defence?

    Jesus Christ if this guy is for real he terrifies me.

    Boo!
  • Posts: 7,507
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...
  • Posts: 15,117
    jobo wrote: »
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...

    Only the rest of the western world.

    I always find ironic that when such massacre happens, the easy access to firearms by the murderer is NOT counted as one of the things that played a role in it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...

    Only the rest of the western world.

    I always find ironic that when such massacre happens, the easy access to firearms by the murderer is NOT counted as one of the things that played a role in it.

    I believe it's because culturally it's seen as a constitutional right. That's different from in any other country. That is the issue. It's enshrined in their constitution. One can look to the 'regulated' comment etc. but that is details......and with any written document sometimes the details are lost on people. Only the overall thrust is remembered, and that is the right to bear arms

    The NRA and weak politicians don't help either.
  • edited June 2015 Posts: 7,507
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...

    Only the rest of the western world.

    I always find ironic that when such massacre happens, the easy access to firearms by the murderer is NOT counted as one of the things that played a role in it.

    I believe it's because culturally it's seen as a constitutional right. That's different from in any other country. That is the issue. It's enshrined in their constitution. One can look to the 'regulated' comment etc. but that is details......and with any written document sometimes the details are lost on people. Only the overall thrust is remembered, and that is the right to bear arms

    The NRA and weak politicians don't help either.


    The constitution was made by a bunch of slave owners hundreds of years ago. Clinging to it like some holy text is just absurd!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...

    Only the rest of the western world.

    I always find ironic that when such massacre happens, the easy access to firearms by the murderer is NOT counted as one of the things that played a role in it.

    I believe it's because culturally it's seen as a constitutional right. That's different from in any other country. That is the issue. It's enshrined in their constitution. One can look to the 'regulated' comment etc. but that is details......and with any written document sometimes the details are lost on people. Only the overall thrust is remembered, and that is the right to bear arms

    The NRA and weak politicians don't help either.


    The constitution was made by a bunch of slave owners hundreds of years ago. Clinging to it like some holy text is just absurd!

    I agree. Practically speaking, it should be amended to reflect new realities. That's never going to happen though as the country is increasingly polarized and some commentators/politicians play to the differences rather than the similarities.

    Ironically, the only thing that seems to really unify the country these days is a fear of terrorism from outside (and interestingly, not from within), and this further strengthens the nutter's hands (I need my weapon for self-defense because I may be attacked).

    Easier to have the external bogeyman I guess.
  • Posts: 7,507
    ^ Well put!
  • Posts: 15,117
    Very well pit @bondjames . The problem is that many don't want to see the reality contradicting their principles.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Perdogg wrote: »
    FLeiter wrote: »
    Just to clarify a few things. Just a guess on my part on the suspect's mental status.

    The Second Amendment of the U. S. Constitution:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Those who oppose gun regulations always overlook 'well regulated' and 'militia'. They believe every mouth-breathing, knuckle dragger should have no restrictions and be able to have military assault weapons. And Americans own about 42% of all the civilian owned guns on the entire planet.

    To this false argument of equating gun deaths with other transportation accidents, autos must be registered and drivers must be licensed.

    It has nothing to do with a "regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state", the US Supreme Court has ruled on this.
    So why's it included in the amendment if it doesn't have anything to do with it?
  • edited June 2015 Posts: 3,566
    TripAces wrote: »
    Even so, imagine 200 blacks, with guns, walking through the streets of Charleston, on their way to church. How do you think that would turn out?

    Pretty much the same way 200 whites with guns walking through the streets of Charleston on their way to church would turn out. To believe otherwise puts you on the same path as the mentally ill person we're discussing here.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I can recall multiple armed 'protests' by groups of armed (nearly all) white people in the US that haven't been arrested.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    This may be a little flippant but, if there's a right to bare arms. Perhaps
    It's the ammunition that could be heavily controlled ? If ammunition is
    not mentioned in the constitution, there shouldn't be a problem.
  • Perdogg wrote: »
    Obama is a dumbshit.

    To bring the conversation to your level, @Perdogg: I know you are but what is he?

    Really now: you're welcome to disagree with him but at least recognize that the dude's pretty smart, okay? This incident is tangled up in at least two different intractable American problems: race and gun control. If you've got something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion then fine, let's hear it. Otherwise go complain about something you don't like about current Bond films; the adults are trying to have a serious discussion here.

  • Sark wrote: »
    I can recall multiple armed 'protests' by groups of armed (nearly all) white people in the US that haven't been arrested.

    Exactly.

    Sorry to be coming to the discussion a little late here. There are a few points I'd like to make:

    On the question of forgiveness: the families are forgiving the perpetrator because, as Christians, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do. I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate here, just trying to explain to those who've expressed surprise on this topic.

    The main issue I see here regards race relations. The USA has recently been faced with a lot of video footage showing mistreatment of black people by police and other officials. This puts the lie to claims that America’s race problems have been solved, quite the contrary in fact. @bondjames is entirely correct in noting that some commentators and politicians have been exacerbating the situation for their own benefit over the past several years. I occasionally think that Elliot Carver is alive and steering the programming on Fox News.

    Additionally, the issue of gun control is a peculiarly American one and the fact that we’ve become something of an postliterate society contributes greatly to the limited understanding of the Second Amendment that has already been noted here. As long as the right for individuals to make a profit overrules the needs of society as a whole, this is not an issue I see being solved anytime soon.
    .
  • Posts: 342
    Not trying to derail the thread here, but if the death penalty were used more, maybe some of these cowards might think twice before acting

    I'm not saying we kill every person who breaks the law or anything, but it should be used for people like this guy

    Considering the U.S. is the only western country with capital punishment, and the number of their own citizens executed I s one of the highest in the world (alongside countries such as China, Iran and North Korea), is probably fair to surmise that the death penalty has little or no deterrent - indeed may actually be brutalising the population leading to more murders

  • Posts: 315
    Perdogg wrote: »
    FLeiter wrote: »
    Just to clarify a few things. Just a guess on my part on the suspect's mental status.

    The Second Amendment of the U. S. Constitution:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Those who oppose gun regulations always overlook 'well regulated' and 'militia'. They believe every mouth-breathing, knuckle dragger should have no restrictions and be able to have military assault weapons. And Americans own about 42% of all the civilian owned guns on the entire planet.

    To this false argument of equating gun deaths with other transportation accidents, autos must be registered and drivers must be licensed.

    It has nothing to do with a "regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state", the US Supreme Court has ruled on this.

    Wow! Reading is fundamental. Thanks for proving my point.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2015 Posts: 4,043
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I guess the American reaction to this will be to supply all priests in the country with guns. :)) Everything but making gun laws stricter... like the rest of the world has...

    Only the rest of the western world.

    I always find ironic that when such massacre happens, the easy access to firearms by the murderer is NOT counted as one of the things that played a role in it.

    I believe it's because culturally it's seen as a constitutional right. That's different from in any other country. That is the issue. It's enshrined in their constitution. One can look to the 'regulated' comment etc. but that is details......and with any written document sometimes the details are lost on people. Only the overall thrust is remembered, and that is the right to bear arms

    The NRA and weak politicians don't help either.


    The constitution was made by a bunch of slave owners hundreds of years ago. Clinging to it like some holy text is just absurd!

    I agree. Practically speaking, it should be amended to reflect new realities. That's never going to happen though as the country is increasingly polarized and some commentators/politicians play to the differences rather than the similarities.

    Ironically, the only thing that seems to really unify the country these days is a fear of terrorism from outside (and interestingly, not from within), and this further strengthens the nutter's hands (I need my weapon for self-defense because I may be attacked).

    Easier to have the external bogeyman I guess.

    Can you imagine what would be acceptable if we hadn't updated the Magna Carta?

    This has been changed and updated many times yet America still lives by the same constitution that was drafted up many years ago.

    Yeah you had the right to bear arms, they were single shot pistols not fecking automatic weapons the fact that civilians are allowed to have weapons that appear in the average action movie isn't only absurd it's downright dumb and that comment by that NRA member about the deceased preacher was offensive.

    It's scary to think how influential the United States is when some yahoo like that has a platform to make such a absurd utterly asinine statement as that.

    I'm just glad I don't live in your utterly ridiculous country!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Imagine the future when everyone in the U.S. is allowed to own a phaser... LOTS of vapourizing will be afoot.
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