SPECTRE - Press reviews and personal reviews (BEWARE! Spoiler reviews allowed)

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  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    I would like to hear an official explanation from the producers as to why they copied Austin Powers Goldmember and made Bond and Blofeld essentially brothers when they curse what the Austin Powers movies did to Bond. It worked in a parody film but they've seriously reduced Blofeld to a baby with daddy issues. Which reminds me, I'd like to hear the producers explanation for why they copied what made Star Trek Into Darkness so stupid: the "seriously he's not Khan/Blofeld" crap and then the ridiculous reveal. If Star Wars The Force Awakens turns out well, I feel that creative control of the Bond franchise needs to be given to a completely different team. Broccoli and Wilson have become George Lucas.

    Hi welcome, but come and contribute immediately venting your disappointment is understandable but you will find your probably the only person on here this disappointed that calling for creative control to move away from Barb and Mike. Well its a ludicrous comment considering the family owns the rights and everything they have delivered up to know is appreciated by all or enough fans. You won't get an official explanation. Personally why would they when the film is receiving high scoring reviews and breaking box office records. Most fans seem content even if it's just with some part with the film and not all. I remember two fans wrote complaining about QOS and EON's lawyers sent them a letter telling them their unsolicited mail was unwelcome. To be honest I would do the same. You can keep some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't keep everybody happy all of the time.

    You might have a backlash from members being a new poster and attacking EON. There are a lot of protective appreciative fans on here. Just a friendly word of advice.

    New poster or not I can state my opinion and they can backlash all they want. And obviously I meant creative control needs to move away in the same way it did with Lucas, by them selling. It's not even really a criticism, after so many years and films you need fresh blood and ideas to keep something going in a good direction. Even if they keep the ownership, they need to give others more control. That includes dropping Purvis and Wade as writers. Sorry but reviews and box office money doesn't mean quality has been delivered, and it doesn't mean that they haven't destroyed Blofeld for no reason. I wish they never got the rights back to Spectre. Oberhauser and Blofeld should've been kept separate characters and it would've worked. Oberhauser could've had a similar role in the organization as Largo. This is just moronic and inexcusable tampering with a character outside of any rational boundary. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the next Bond was an african american black lesbian.

    You wont get on here with people with that attitude. In your opinion, I did not like the twist away from the prior three films with the direction they took with SPECTRE, but I enjoyed it for what it is and appreciate what my fellow Bond fans would enjoy about it. A majority of posts are of fans loving the film, the critics a majority of which love it. So why change things to suit you and your anger towards it. You say fresh blood, Michaels two young Sons have worked on SF and now SPECTRE. Gregg looks a dead cert to take over his auntie Barbara one day as head of EON and the same family who have looked after this franchise for over 50 years will continue to do so, and I welcome that. You always have the option of just not going to see the next film.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    FoxRox wrote: »
    That must be it!! These things can stay in the back of your mind unless you're reminded :))

    Subliminal messaging.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    Zekidk wrote: »
    I see very few people (and reviewers in general) commenting on the Austria action setpiece, which according to Gregg Wilson, is the "crown jewel" of SP.

    Any thoughts?

    I actually thought that was a let-down.
    After such a long abscene of Alpine action in 007-land the snow plane thing left me underwhelmed (the lack of proper soundtrack is partly to blame) - and the whole sequence was crying out for some local flavour, with perhaps some skiing or at least have the plane & 4x4 cars end up on a ski-piste or smth, instead of a deserted mountainside village...
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 4,617
    OK, not sure which thread to put this so forgive me:
    As Mendes has said and everyone can see, SP is clearly not SF2. Its tone is completely different and, by implication and action, DCs Bond (to me at least) is a very different person. He has a cockiness, assurance and humour that simply was not there in SF and this fits in with the overall different tone. Now, considering that: SF was a massive success, the timeline is very close (weeks I am guessing) and wider audiences tend to be lazy in knowing what they like: is this the first time that a Bond movie has changed in tone so directly from one movie to another (especially within the same time line and the same cast and Director). DAF was very different from previous SC movies but obviously there was a break and culture had moved on etc.
    Its just a thought but, when the dust settles, will the change of tone be considered a wise choice or should the DC Bond we saw and enjoyed (as a mass audience) have re-appeared in SP? And did the writers and Director make this decision for artistic reasons rather than a commercial decision of giving the punters more of what they obviously want? Are we looking at "second album syndrome". If SF was "Rumours" , will SP turn out to be "Tusk"?
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2015 Posts: 2,138
    AceHole wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    I see very few people (and reviewers in general) commenting on the Austria action setpiece, which according to Gregg Wilson, is the "crown jewel" of SP.

    Any thoughts?

    I actually thought that was a let-down.
    After such a long abscene of Alpine action in 007-land the snow plane thing left me underwhelmed (the lack of proper soundtrack is partly to blame) - and the whole sequence was crying out for some local flavour, with perhaps some skiing or at least have the plane & 4x4 cars end up on a ski-piste or smth, instead of a deserted mountainside village...

    It really was crying out for Ski Scene, or even using one of the aeroplane doors as a sledge. After all SPECTRE is all about Homage it would have been a tip of the hat to the Cello from TLD.

  • You wont get on here with people with that attitude. In your opinion, I did not like the twist away from the prior three films with the direction they took with SPECTRE, but I enjoyed it for what it is and appreciate what my fellow Bond fans would enjoy about it. A majority of posts are of fans loving the film, the critics a majority of which love it. So why change things to suit you and your anger towards it. You say fresh blood, Michaels two young Sons have worked on SF and now SPECTRE. Gregg looks a dead cert to take over his auntie Barbara one day as head of EON and the same family who have looked after this franchise for over 50 years will continue to do so, and I welcome that. You always have the option of just not going to see the next film.

    A majority can still be wrong, look at religious people. Anyway, I wouldn't consider the offspring of the current producers to be fresh blood.
  • Posts: 486
    The trailer spoilt any surprises for the Austria set piece sadly. It's not bad in itself.

    I still liked Craig's Moore-esque salute to Hinx when the plane lines up with the car before switching to a sterner face and proceeding to shoot at him.
  • AceHole wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    I see very few people (and reviewers in general) commenting on the Austria action setpiece, which according to Gregg Wilson, is the "crown jewel" of SP.

    Any thoughts?

    I actually thought that was a let-down.
    After such a long abscene of Alpine action in 007-land the snow plane thing left me underwhelmed (the lack of proper soundtrack is partly to blame) - and the whole sequence was crying out for some local flavour, with perhaps some skiing or at least have the plane & 4x4 cars end up on a ski-piste or smth, instead of a deserted mountainside village...

    I agree, I would've liked to see some skiing, especially after they talk about how Hannes Oberhauser taught Bond to skii. I of course was hoping for some OHMSS theme thanks to the trailer lol
  • Posts: 486
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    I agree, I would've liked to see some skiing, especially after they talk about how Hannes Oberhauser taught Bond to skii.

    Seeing Bond ski would have really hacked off Franz\Blofeld!

  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Must admit, I was really hoping for a ski scene. Oh, well just have to break out the OHMSS blu-ray I suppose!
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2015 Posts: 2,138
    cryptic47 wrote: »

    You wont get on here with people with that attitude. In your opinion, I did not like the twist away from the prior three films with the direction they took with SPECTRE, but I enjoyed it for what it is and appreciate what my fellow Bond fans would enjoy about it. A majority of posts are of fans loving the film, the critics a majority of which love it. So why change things to suit you and your anger towards it. You say fresh blood, Michaels two young Sons have worked on SF and now SPECTRE. Gregg looks a dead cert to take over his auntie Barbara one day as head of EON and the same family who have looked after this franchise for over 50 years will continue to do so, and I welcome that. You always have the option of just not going to see the next film.

    A majority can still be wrong, look at religious people. Anyway, I wouldn't consider the offspring of the current producers to be fresh blood.

    On the board two minutes and you've made comments about black lesbians and religious people. My goodness man behave yourself.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    [I wish they never got the rights back to Spectre. Oberhauser and Blofeld should've been kept separate characters and it would've worked. Oberhauser could've had a similar role in the organization as Largo. This is just moronic and inexcusable tampering with a character outside of any rational boundary. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the next Bond was an african american lesbian.

    I agree. This is the next logical step.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,585
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    . Further, I would argue that fans should be protective and appreciative of Fleming and his source material, and not this reboot universe that is becoming less and less recognizable.

    Well, I've been a fan of Bond films for many, many years. I can (just) remember Roger Moore taking over the role. The films have been my obsession for all of my life, and I have seen them all more times than I can remember.

    And yet I have read some of Flemings books once, and a handful twice. I can take them or leave them. So where do I fit into your idea of a Bond fan?

    I'm appreciative of the source material and keeping Bond roughly as Fleming wrote him, but audiences today have no idea who Fleming is. So the fact Eon still go back to Fleming whenever they are stuck is surely testament to their high regard for the man. If BB and her family gave up the rights to Bond then who would take over? I will tell you now, it would be someone who wouldn't give two figs about Ian Fleming or his heavily plundered books. Bond films would turn into F&F clones.

    In fact Barbara, by creating CR and everything that has come since has more regard for Fleming than her father did with some of his later films.

    So, just remember that as years go by it's harder to relate the films to the gentleman spy of the 1950s, and Barbara Broccoli does her level best to be respectful to that past. More so than anyone else would, that's for sure.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    RC7 wrote: »
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    [I wish they never got the rights back to Spectre. Oberhauser and Blofeld should've been kept separate characters and it would've worked. Oberhauser could've had a similar role in the organization as Largo. This is just moronic and inexcusable tampering with a character outside of any rational boundary. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the next Bond was an african american lesbian.

    I agree. This is the next logical step.

    I would probably still accept that over Elba =))
  • Posts: 187
    NicNac wrote: »
    cryptic47 wrote: »
    . Further, I would argue that fans should be protective and appreciative of Fleming and his source material, and not this reboot universe that is becoming less and less recognizable.

    Well, I've been a fan of Bond films for many, many years. I can (just) remember Roger Moore taking over the role. The films have been my obsession for all of my life, and I have seen them all more times than I can remember.

    And yet I have read some of Flemings books once, and a handful twice. I can take them or leave them. So where do I fit into your idea of a Bond fan?

    I'm appreciative of the source material and keeping Bond roughly as Fleming wrote him, but audiences today have no idea who Fleming is. So the fact Eon still go back to Fleming whenever they are stuck is surely testament to their high regard for the man. If BB and her family gave up the rights to Bond then who would take over? I will tell you now, it would be someone who wouldn't give two figs about Ian Fleming or his heavily plundered books. Bond films would turn into F&F clones.

    In fact Barbara, by creating CR and everything that has come since has more regard for Fleming than her father did with some of his later films.

    So, just remember that as years go by it's harder to relate the films to the gentleman spy of the 1950s, and Barbara Broccoli does her level best to be respectful to that past. More so than anyone else would, that's for sure.

    Well put and hear hear.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I thought it would have been good if bond had to escape the plane once it lost his wings then jumped out the back on a pair of skis to continue the pursuit.

    I also think that a fight atop Big ben after Mi6 went down would have been more memorable than bringing down the helicopter with a Walther PPK. Imagine if Bloefeld had just flown off not following the river!
  • Posts: 486
    NicNac wrote: »
    In fact Barbara, by creating CR and everything that has come since has more regard for Fleming than her father did with some of his later films.

    So, just remember that as years go by it's harder to relate the films to the gentleman spy of the 1950s, and Barbara Broccoli does her level best to be respectful to that past. More so than anyone else would, that's for sure.

    Well said that man. I tire of those people who downcry Barbara Broccoli and say she's letting her father's (and Fleming's) legacy down.

    She took a huge gamble with Craig and the reboot but both artistically and financially it has paid off. With SPECTRE we've got a slight return to older films, there is a little bit of fun in the first hour or so for long time fans, but it's still a traditional Craig film as it races home to a conclusion. I think they've balanced the styles quite well.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    NicNac wrote: »
    Maybe Craig's Bond doesn't giggle at arse jokes, but any character who gets past armed guards by telling them he is Mickey Mouse is not taking the world all that seriously.

    Pretty self deprecating, considering his ears.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Cowley wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    In fact Barbara, by creating CR and everything that has come since has more regard for Fleming than her father did with some of his later films.

    So, just remember that as years go by it's harder to relate the films to the gentleman spy of the 1950s, and Barbara Broccoli does her level best to be respectful to that past. More so than anyone else would, that's for sure.

    Well said that man. I tire of those people who downcry Barbara Broccoli and say she's letting her father's (and Fleming's) legacy down.

    She took a huge gamble with Craig and the reboot but both artistically and financially it has paid off. With SPECTRE we've got a slight return to older films, there is a little bit of fun in the first hour or so for long time fans, but it's still a traditional Craig film as it races home to a conclusion. I think they've balanced the styles quite well.

    Oh yes give me Spectre over anything Cubby did post Saltzman.
  • Posts: 486
    Oh yes give me Spectre over anything Cubby did post Saltzman.

    That's just it. I don't wish to trash Cubby by any means but he always struck me as the money man whereas Saltzman seemed to have more creative input over the earlier films - even if it was not liking most things!

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Cubby as the guy risking the money, to give us these films. I think he
    Knew what he was doing.Although guys if you have a spare $300 mill
    Sitting about, please show the rest of us how it should have been done ? :D
  • Posts: 486
    Cubby as the guy risking the money, to give us these films. I think he
    Knew what he was doing.Although guys if you have a spare $300 mill
    Sitting about, please show the rest of us how it should have been done ? :D

    As I said I'm not trashing him at all but I think Saltzman and Babs need some kudos too. Saltzman certainly needed Cubby to bank roll him.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2015 Posts: 2,138
    Cowley wrote: »
    Cubby as the guy risking the money, to give us these films. I think he
    Knew what he was doing.Although guys if you have a spare $300 mill
    Sitting about, please show the rest of us how it should have been done ? :D

    As I said I'm not trashing him at all but I think Saltzman and Babs need some kudos too. Saltzman certainly needed Cubby to bank roll him.

    They were better together. But Saltzman was a disaster with money. That was his downfall.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    Cubby as the guy risking the money, to give us these films. I think he Knew what he was doing.Although guys if you have a spare $300 mill
    Sitting about, please show the rest of us how it should have been done ? :D

    Problem is I don't own the rights.... =))
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Made some bad business investments over the years eh ? :)) still
    Never mind, I think the rights to the man from uncle will be going
    Cheap, you can re make them. ;)
  • Posts: 6,601
    Well, I think, its always easy to say in hindsight, how you might have done this or that better. But remember, the guys doing it are no idiots. They do the best they can and its obviously very hard given all that could go wrong. Sometimes I feel, they should have someone, totally from out of the field look over it to give something from a mind, that is not involved in the process for so long. You tend to get lost in your own thoughts and perspectives all to easy.
  • Germanlady wrote: »
    Well, I think, its always easy to say in hindsight, how you might have done this or that better. But remember, the guys doing it are no idiots. They do the best they can and its obviously very hard given all that could go wrong. Sometimes I feel, they should have someone, totally from out of the field look over it to give something from a mind, that is not involved in the process for so long. You tend to get lost in your own thoughts and perspectives all to easy.

    A very lucid & intelligent point.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Very true, as an exercise it might be fun. If some members put down on a thread here their out line for Bond25. Then we can compare their ideas with what, EON gives us, to see who's best. ;)
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Desk wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Desk wrote: »
    It just strikes me that there's a sense of humanity missing from Craig's Bond. From my perspective it was present in Casino Royale, where I felt Craig played the character perfectly, but either he or the producers appear to have decided that the loss of Vesper has robbed him of that. As a consequence, the po-faced character sometimes comes across as a bit unsympathetic and unlikable.

    This is interesting because you've basically highlighted the significance of Vesper's role, impact and shaping of Bond's character and see the effects of this as a negative.

    With the very few minor exceptions Bond is supposed to be jaded towards relationships with women and treat them as superfluous and disposable pleasures and his treatment of women expertly described by Vesper herself upon meeting him who also happened to be the person who set that character disposition firmly in stone by compromosing his trust and breaking his heart.

    Bond is now back to business not giving much of a damn and will do what he must and have a good time while doing so. Does that make him unlikable? Depends on who you ask but it's a quintessential Bond attribute. For years people cried out for, "The Bond we all know and love" and when we get it they have an issue with it. It's strange.
    You say that Bond is seen to be not giving much of a damn, which I agree with.

    But 'having a good time while doing so'? I don't see much evidence of that, to be honest.

    He clearly is. He's not moping about and he happily seduces Lucia without a second thought. Upon first meeting her he makes a joke about life insurance and tells her casually that she doesn't look like a grieving widow. This is a man demonstrating he has a duty to his job but will amuse himself in the process.
    There's the famous line that 'men want to be Bond, and women want to be with him'. As a man, that doesn't hold true for me with Daniel Craig's interpretation of the character. His Bond doesn't seem to get much enjoyment out of anything.

    I get that because Craig's Bond for the most part centres on his character arc being shaped into a fully formed experienced pro. That includes the hardships and lessons learned that cultivate the man into later being the man most men want to be and Craig achieved that status effortlessly in SP.
    Instead, we have a perpetually angry, moody, surly version of Bond that I find lacking in warmth and charm.

    Perpetually? No. He was fine for the most part in CR. QoS was understandable and even then to say he lacked warmth and charm is being disingenuous. Bond's interactions with Mathis and Cammille testify to that. SF Bond had his grievances but he was a lot less moody and angry than he could and probably should have been. You and others really play up this angry attitude that Bond supposedly has when it's not the case at all. That being said I don't want nor need Bond smirking and winking all the time to suggest he's "in a good mood". Pay attention to the details and nuances in tge acting, body language and expressions.
    In previous incarnations of the character we'd see Bond enjoy some flirting and badinage, regardless of whether he intended any serious relationship, and actually enjoy his verbal and physical clashes with the villains. But with Craig's Bond the dialogue and actions appear largely functional, or guilelessly hostile.

    These are harsher times that deal with much more serious threats that also reflect what's going on in our own society. I don't want Bond pallying about with the villain who just blew up an underground train. The 7/7 attack on London was a big deal and as such, villains and scumbag villains of tgat nature need to be dealt with hostility. It's credible and just in an ideal world.
    I hate to draw comparisons, but Dalton managed to not only capture the darker, damaged, slightly embittered character sometimes seen in Fleming's books but still gave the man a sense of warmth and human empathy.

    Why because he deliberately missed killing Kara or wanted to avenge Felixstowe and Della? Again, I think you're missing or just not wanting to see the human empathy Craig has displayed in his movies. Craig in CR alone conveyed this moreso than Dalton did in his 2 movies.
    Dalton's Bond is a positive, heroic character, and someone I'd want on my side. I would have said Craig's Bond was in Casino Royale, but particularly in Skyfall (where he abandons colleagues and defenceless women to die) and in Spectre he comes across as a bit of surly, unlikable, rude prick who doesn't care much about himself or anyone else.

    Desk

    I really don't agree with this at all. Bond unlikable and a prick in SP? Wow. Regardless, Bond isn't supposed to be a positive hero. SP alone makes a big deal about him being an assassin. Bond isn't a hero or role model. He's the guy that does the dirty work for his government while abusing alcohol, sleeping with multiple women and many other vices. He's not a conventional nice guy so I don't really see what the problem is. If you're looking for "Captain America", you won't find him in Bond.

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Well, I think, its always easy to say in hindsight, how you might have done this or that better. But remember, the guys doing it are no idiots. They do the best they can and its obviously very hard given all that could go wrong. Sometimes I feel, they should have someone, totally from out of the field look over it to give something from a mind, that is not involved in the process for so long. You tend to get lost in your own thoughts and perspectives all to easy.

    It is a good point, but Logan was only new to Skyfall he was the "fresh eyes" the problem was his script was so far away from Bond that P&W had t be brought in to inject some Bond in to it. Then with Spectre you have Logan with P&W and then for humour you have Jez Buttersworth too many cooks spoil the broth. IMO if Logan can not produce a good story for Bond on his own he is not the right man for the job there are plenty of talented writers who are Bond fans out there.
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