SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 15,123
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    001 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If you find either one of them boring, you're not doing it properly.

    How old are you, 12 ?

    Apparently I'm old enough to appreciate their types of beauty. And their acting skills.

    X_X ...

    Lame joke I know, but if Léa Seydoux and Monica Bellucci are not worthy of being Bond girls, then who is?

    They most definitely are worthy. What wasn't worthy was their script.

    I don't always get the criteria some use to judge the quality of casting or performance.

    We can debate the script and their respective characters as written. But the criticism we objected to here was about their casting unless I'm mistaken.

    Yes I know that. I was trying to support your response to @001 but never mind.

    I understood you agreed with me on the casting.

    And for the record I don't think the characters are badly written.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    001 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    If you find either one of them boring, you're not doing it properly.

    How old are you, 12 ?

    Apparently I'm old enough to appreciate their types of beauty. And their acting skills.

    X_X ...

    Lame joke I know, but if Léa Seydoux and Monica Bellucci are not worthy of being Bond girls, then who is?

    They most definitely are worthy. What wasn't worthy was their script.

    I don't always get the criteria some use to judge the quality of casting or performance.

    We can debate the script and their respective characters as written. But the criticism we objected to here was about their casting unless I'm mistaken.

    Yes I know that. I was trying to support your response to @001 but never mind.

    I understood you agreed with me on the casting.

    And for the record I don't think the characters are badly written.

    And that's fine. You two carry on.
  • Posts: 1,098
    Whatever they do next for Bond 25, it needs to be more fun. Though many people enjoyed Spectre, including myself, the film was pretty much dour.
    Personally, i think they need to introduce a droid in the new installment, maybe they can borrow BB8! :)
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    Like SP a lot, but to make it top 5 (or higher):

    Edit down the MI6 team scenes
    Totally redo the Alps action sequence so it's the BEST part of the movie
    Drop the Blofeld family connection and/or keep Waltz as Oberhauser working for unseen Blofeld
    Make Bond/Swann escape from Blofeld/Oberhauser lair more involved/plausible
    Redo London ending on scale of RN. Less can be more, suspenseful instead of overblown, forced and hokey. Bond going after C (who maybe now aided by Hinx, but not Oberhauser/Blofeld).
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Some good suggestions there.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    Like SP a lot, but to make it top 5 (or higher):

    Edit down the MI6 team scenes
    Totally redo the Alps action sequence so it's the BEST part of the movie
    Drop the Blofeld family connection and/or keep Waltz as Oberhauser working for unseen Blofeld
    Make Bond/Swann escape from Blofeld/Oberhauser lair more involved/plausible
    Redo London ending on scale of RN. Less can be more, suspenseful instead of overblown, forced and hokey. Bond going after C (who maybe now aided by Hinx, but not Oberhauser/Blofeld).

    What's scary is that MGW's son was in charge of the Alps sequence. And it was lame!

    I'll take Babs' decisions any day over his.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    echo wrote: »
    What's scary is that MGW's son was in charge of the Alps sequence. And it was lame!

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest. One of MGW's sons was in charge of the 007 Legends debacle (quite possibly the same one).

    I dread to think where we will be in 20 years when Babs and MGW have handed over the reins.
  • Posts: 486
    echo wrote: »

    What's scary is that MGW's son was in charge of the Alps sequence. And it was lame!

    I'll take Babs' decisions any day over his.

    Well given by comparison Babs was in charge of producing the LTK tanker chase I'd say YES I'd take any of her decisions over his.


  • edited January 2016 Posts: 2,015
    Cowley wrote: »
    Well given by comparison Babs was in charge of producing the LTK tanker chase I'd say YES I'd take any of her decisions over his.

    Remy Julienne reported they prepared the stunts with some tanker models, and discovered in the very last weeks they would have to shoot the movie with other different models. Kudos to them for being able to deal with that :)
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    edited January 2016 Posts: 127
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I love that Craig's endings are bittersweet. It suits his portrayal of Bond.

    And very in tone with many of Fleming's novels

    @Ludivico, could you please point out the Fleming novels you're referring to other than CR and OHMSS? From what I've read, and I've read all of them, Fleming was pretty much the "hero gets the girl"-kind of writer. Quite straightforward. Live and Let Die, Goldfinger, Thunderball, Moonraker and Dr. NO, just to name a few, all end with Bond and the girl getting it on. Not so much bitter-sweet as far as I can recall.

    Actually those bloody "bitter-sweet" endings do not support the escapism that can be found in the novels and older movies. An exception every now and then keeps things fresh, like with CR. However along with other pretentious tendencies mentioned in this thread, for some reason Bond can't have a happy end any more.

    The Bond movies nowadays have lost their soul IMHO. They are no more "the spy story to end all spy stories", but arty and pretentious drama's that are more akin to soap opera's instead of thrilling, escapist adventures.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I love that Craig's endings are bittersweet. It suits his portrayal of Bond.

    And very in tone with many of Fleming's novels

    @Ludivico, could you please point out the Fleming novels you're referring to other than CR and OHMSS? From what I've read, and I've read all of them, Fleming was pretty much the "hero gets the girl"-kind of writer. Quite straightforward. Live and Let Die, Goldfinger, Thunderball, Moonraker and Dr. NO, just to name a few, all end with Bond and the girl getting it on. Not so much bitter-sweet as far as I can recall.

    Actually those bloody "bitter-sweet" endings do not support the escapism that can be found in the novels and older movies. An exception every now and then keeps things fresh, like with CR. However along with other pretentious tendencies mentioned in this thread, for some reason Bond can't have a happy end any more.

    The Bond movies nowadays have lost their soul IMHO. They are no more "the spy story to end all spy stories", but arty and pretentious drama's that are more akin to soap opera's instead of thrilling, escapist adventures.

    Well in CR, MR (suggest you re-read it and check its Fleming's version not Christopher Wood's) FRWL, OHMSS and YOLT Bond most certainly does not get the girl so it's far from a rarity.

    Take your point about the Mendes pretentiousness though.
  • Posts: 15,123
    @Mark_Hazard in Moonraker he does NOT get the girl. She leaves him for another man. In FRWL Bond's fate is uncertain, he might be dead, in TB he gets the girl but the ending is not exactly upbeat. In any case there's a darker/bitter aspect to the novels, just like in many crime fiction novels, however escapist they are.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    edited January 2016 Posts: 127
    Of course there's a darker and more serious tone in the novels, but still for me the ending usually on an much happier note. Even in YOLT, dear @TheWizardOfIce, he does
    get the girl although he suffers from amnesia, but it was a rather happy and funny ending to depressing and revenge-driven story.
    I must admit I was wrong about Moonraker and I definitely should reread it. I disagree about TB, as Bond does get the job done and does get the girl, although it's pretty hectic. And sure his fate in FRWL was uncertain, I admit that as well, but
    at least he stopped SMERSH and would either die as the hero or survive.
    (spoilers might seem unnecessary, but I think there are still quite a few on this forum who haven't read the books).

    My point is that the current movies are trying so hard to be different from the old ones, that they try to avoid quintessential things like getting the girl or having a good old villain with an evil plan, and come up with the personal relations to Bond instead.

    With it's flaws, I was happy the the tone in SPECTRE started to change and James does run off with Madeleine. Unfortunately from this point, I can only see Blofeld escaping and killing Madeleine, making things again personal.

    Too bad EON has passed on the opportunity to have SPECTRE as an organisation that's out there as a believable threat to the world, instead of just Bond's personal life.
  • Posts: 15,123
    I don't find either YOLT and FRWL endings happy. They are as dark as they can get.
  • Posts: 1,165
    YOLT has quite a dark ending. I wonder if the Fleming estate would ever allow a continuation writer to reintroduce Bond's potential child from that novel?
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 15,123
    TR007 wrote: »
    YOLT has quite a dark ending. I wonder if the Fleming estate would ever allow a continuation writer to reintroduce Bond's potential child from that novel?

    Didn't they do it already? My hypothesis about Bond's child is that Fleming was planning to end Bond's career, and maybe life even. He is no longer an ageless man the moment he brings a child to the world. Or he just wanted to show how Bond's life could truly be bitter and marked with lost: his wife first, then his identity, then finally his child, which he would know nothing about, not even his existence. He is by the end of YOLT a truly lost man, where everything has been stripped away from him.

    And it's completely off topic I know.
  • Posts: 1,165
    Ludovico wrote: »
    TR007 wrote: »
    YOLT has quite a dark ending. I wonder if the Fleming estate would ever allow a continuation writer to reintroduce Bond's potential child from that novel?

    Didn't they do it already? My hypothesis about Bond's child is that Fleming was planning to end Bond's career, and maybe life even. He is no longer an ageless man the moment he brings a child to the world. Or he just wanted to show how Bond's life could truly be bitter and marked with lost: his wife first, then his identity, then finally his child, which he would know nothing about, not even his existence. He is by the end of YOLT a truly lost man, where everything has been stripped away from him.

    And it's completely off topic I know.

    A very interesting hypothesis. I can see how that may be the case. When you say they have already explored his child from YOLT, where and when was this? I've obviously missed it.

  • Posts: 15,123
    I have read somewhere on these forums that Bond junior (not the cartoon) was at least mentioned by a continuator. As I haven't read continuators yet (I recently created a controversy about not reading them, even), I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    A good change to SPECTRE would have been to make the countdown more meaningful by telling us what exactly was at stake. I remember actually laughing and saying "what?" when Q said "If that network goes online SPECTRE will control everything!" as if that one line of monologue was supposed to be sufficient to keep the audience's tension itself. The only appropriate response to Q's non-sequiter was "how do you figure that?"
  • Sark wrote: »
    A good change to SPECTRE would have been to make the countdown more meaningful by telling us what exactly was at stake. I remember actually laughing and saying "what?" when Q said "If that network goes online SPECTRE will control everything!" as if that one line of monologue was supposed to be sufficient to keep the audience's tension itself. The only appropriate response to Q's non-sequiter was "how do you figure that?"

    The whole Nine Eyes plot is so tacked on. The attack to get the South Africans in literally happens in the background! Bond doesn't try to stop it; he's not even aware of it.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I've said it in other threads, but I'll repeat: the idea that South Africa would a) be part of a group of 9 that included actually powerful countries and b) would have veto power was so dumb that I literally laughed. As was the notion that China and Japan would be part of the same intelligence sharing group (actually the only thing I noticed edited from the mainland China version was the one glimpse of China's placard).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Of course there's a darker and more serious tone in the novels, but still for me the ending usually on an much happier note. Even in YOLT, dear @TheWizardOfIce, he does
    get the girl although he suffers from amnesia, but it was a rather happy and funny ending to depressing and revenge-driven story.
    I must admit I was wrong about Moonraker and I definitely should reread it. I disagree about TB, as Bond does get the job done and does get the girl, although it's pretty hectic. And sure his fate in FRWL was uncertain, I admit that as well, but
    at least he stopped SMERSH and would either die as the hero or survive.
    (spoilers might seem unnecessary, but I think there are still quite a few on this forum who haven't read the books).

    My point is that the current movies are trying so hard to be different from the old ones, that they try to avoid quintessential things like getting the girl or having a good old villain with an evil plan, and come up with the personal relations to Bond instead.

    With it's flaws, I was happy the the tone in SPECTRE started to change and James does run off with Madeleine. Unfortunately from this point, I can only see Blofeld escaping and killing Madeleine, making things again personal.

    Too bad EON has passed on the opportunity to have SPECTRE as an organisation that's out there as a believable threat to the world, instead of just Bond's personal life.

    YOLT 'a happy and funny ending'? Are you actually mental? Christ I know we get some inane comments on these boards but I congratulate you Sir; not even two weeks into January and you have the award for 'Most Ludicrous Comment 2016' sewn up. The only way you can be beaten is if someone comes out and says 'DAD is the best Bond of all time'! And people who think that live in Broadmoor and aren't allowed access to the Internet so I think you've got it in the bag.

    Bond ending up not knowing who he is and obliviously on his way to Vladivostok happy in the knowledge that the Russians wouldn't harm a simple fisherman from Fukuoka is possibly an even bleaker ending than CR and OHMSS.

    Presumably when you feel like a proper belly laugh you shove Threads in the DVD player?

    Following on from your lack of knowledge of MR you now compound it with this ridiculous comment? I'd suggest just sticking to discussing the films as your knowledge of Fleming can only be described as scant!
  • Get Dalton and Connery to write the script and direct.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582

    YOLT 'a happy and funny ending'? Are you actually mental? Christ I know we get some inane comments on these boards but I congratulate you Sir; not even two weeks into January and you have the award for 'Most Ludicrous Comment 2016' sewn up. The only way you can be beaten is if someone comes out and says 'DAD is the best Bond of all time'! And people who think that live in Broadmoor and aren't allowed access to the Internet so I think you've got it in the bag.

    Bond ending up not knowing who he is and obliviously on his way to Vladivostok happy in the knowledge that the Russians wouldn't harm a simple fisherman from Fukuoka is possibly an even bleaker ending than CR and OHMSS.

    Presumably when you feel like a proper belly laugh you shove Threads in the DVD player?

    Following on from your lack of knowledge of MR you now compound it with this ridiculous comment? I'd suggest just sticking to discussing the films as your knowledge of Fleming can only be described as scant!

    Come on Wiz, please don't get like this over someone else's opinion.

    Compared to you my own knowledge of Fleming is definitely scant, but I believe he would be referring to Bond and Kissy's gentle, seemingly happy existence. 'Funny' probably due to the sex toys stuff and Bond finding the book. You could argue it was funny and happy, but equally sad because Kissy was trying to keep Bond to herself and clearly failing.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    RC7 wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Semantics.
    Brothers, stepbrothers, childhood acquaintances, kissing cousins etc...
    It's all daft.

    Just clarifying. They are acquaintances.

    The fact that the chief villain knows Bond from his childhood is not a good plot point. The Blofeld character deviates pointlessly from Fleming.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    suavejmf wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Semantics.
    Brothers, stepbrothers, childhood acquaintances, kissing cousins etc...
    It's all daft.

    Just clarifying. They are acquaintances.

    The fact that the chief villain knows Bond from his childhood is not a good plot point. The Blofeld character deviates pointlessly from Fleming.

    I don't disagree, but it happened. I feel no real need to labour over it. There are positives I can embrace about the character and performance.
  • @RC7 People are labouring over it because it is clearly going to be used again. It's not a minor point which is contained to that film. It's going to be a major feature for all future spectre vs bond plots.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    @RC7 People are labouring over it because it is clearly going to be used again. It's not a minor point which is contained to that film. It's going to be a major feature for all future spectre vs bond plots.

    Is it? I would presume DC will do one, at a push two films. After that I believe they'll rest Spectre and when they do bring them back there will be no childhood connection. DC's missions have been very personal to his incarnation of the character. I believe it will be a plot point of his era alone.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »

    YOLT 'a happy and funny ending'? Are you actually mental? Christ I know we get some inane comments on these boards but I congratulate you Sir; not even two weeks into January and you have the award for 'Most Ludicrous Comment 2016' sewn up. The only way you can be beaten is if someone comes out and says 'DAD is the best Bond of all time'! And people who think that live in Broadmoor and aren't allowed access to the Internet so I think you've got it in the bag.

    Bond ending up not knowing who he is and obliviously on his way to Vladivostok happy in the knowledge that the Russians wouldn't harm a simple fisherman from Fukuoka is possibly an even bleaker ending than CR and OHMSS.

    Presumably when you feel like a proper belly laugh you shove Threads in the DVD player?

    Following on from your lack of knowledge of MR you now compound it with this ridiculous comment? I'd suggest just sticking to discussing the films as your knowledge of Fleming can only be described as scant!

    Come on Wiz, please don't get like this over someone else's opinion.

    Compared to you my own knowledge of Fleming is definitely scant, but I believe he would be referring to Bond and Kissy's gentle, seemingly happy existence. 'Funny' probably due to the sex toys stuff and Bond finding the book. You could argue it was funny and happy, but equally sad because Kissy was trying to keep Bond to herself and clearly failing.

    Agreed the stuff with the frog sweating and the pillow book is funny.

    But don't confuse a funny incident in a tragic story as a funny and, indeed, happy ending.

    Our hero the urbane, suave gentleman spy reduced to a shambling amnesiac who after losing his wife ends up believing he's a Japanese peasant who naively goes and puts himself in the hands of the Russians doesn't strike me as funny or happy in the slightest.

    Even for Kissy it's a tragic ending as her idyllic life is shattered by the discovery of the word Vladivostok and because she loves Taro San she knows she has to let him go despite being left up the duff.
  • Back on topic for a moment, here's how I would have changed the movie:

    -Don't call it Spectre.
    -Keep the opening scenes the same- have Bond tracking Sciarra, and he links him to an underground organization that's possibly a reorganized Quantum.
    -Keep the Rome scene as-is, except Bond does not get a good look at the leader's face.
    -During the investigation, the name Franz Oberhauser comes up. Bond recognizes the name, and he wonders if Oberhauser faked his death. It'd been decades since he'd last seen him. Now with a personal tie to the case, he tries to track Oberhauser down.
    -Following the meteor scene, where Oberhauser reveals himself to have been the leader at the Rome meeting, he invites Bond and Madeline to dinner. At dinner Oberhauser mentions events from Bond's childhood. Then, (casually would be best), he reveals that he's NOT actually Oberhauser. Oberhauser is indeed dead, and he took his identity knowing it was the best way to lure Bond to him. He took Bond's personal ties and manipulated them to his advantage.
    -THEN he reveals that his real name is Ernst Stavro Blofeld. (DUN DUN DUN.) He was the mastermind behind Quantum, which was really just a branch of his umbrella organization, SPECTRE.
    -Bond 25 will now be called "Spectre".

    (Of course, there's other tweaks I would make, such as the unconvincing "love" story and the ridiculous escape from Blofeld's lair, but I think resolving the stupid Bond-Blofeld connection would strengthen the movie a lot, not to mention it was a twist that almost EVERYONE saw coming. Having the presence of Spectre be a complete surprise would have greatly improved the viewer's experience, to me at least.)
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