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Comments
You are right on that one. And the lack of stability therefore could have severe consequences for the prosperity and welfare on the continent.
Indeed. And the people will have difficulty to accept it.
Why are people coming up with the fear-argument?? There's reality in it. To become a member of the EER, that Norway is member of as well, one has to sit around the table with the EU. And can't you at least understand that politicians from other EU nations are at least a BIT angry??
In an ideal world the UK would have become easily a member of the EER, but now one has to prepare for an angry EU that is not willing anymore to sit around the negotiating table, when they did so earlier this year. It's not fear, it's reality. Why can't you accept that.
By the way, Mr Schauble says this as well:
"In is in. Out is completely out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people." and "Again, In is in. Out is completely out. Please respect the consequences of democracy."
If people are so indifferent about referendums and their consequences, then why using them in the first please. It's simply not fair for our democracies. Your option June 23rd is "Leave". And "leave" is it. There's no 3rd option like "Enter the EER".
That's not fear. That's the sheer nasty reality of things. Sometimes it seems that if the supporters talk about the possibility of a Brexit, there's no fear at all. But if the very same opposers of Brexit are supporting democracy, just like the supporters of Brexit do, then suddenly they are fear mongering assholes. Man, stop that stupid argument.
So if we don't like something we just have to lump it so we don't annoy EU politicians?
Terrifying.
All well and good you quoting politicians but they don't affect anything inthe real world. See how long BMW and Mercedes will stand Herr Schauble blocking them from trading with the UK. If you don't give us what we want you'll be replaced by someone who does. That's how democracy works - big business backs politicians who will give them what they want.
Why is it you think that the only answer to peace and prosperity is to keep the status quo? Maybe there's a better way and history will judge the UK leaving as the moment that triggered full on reform of the failing EU? I don't think anybody has said they are against trading and cooperating with other countries but if you're saying the bloated EU is the only way this can be achieved without descending into another European war then it's you who are fear mongering.
I hope you weren't talking...to me?
:-S
When the UK walks out they will not get the same benefits as Norway or Switzerland, who actually both are part of the Schengen agreement and do pay a large sum of money each year to benefit from the EU. It would be totally daft to expect the UK to get this as easy and at the same time it is rather stupid as they gave up a vote in the EU for essentially paying to get in once more and have no say at all in what the EU decides.
I think the EU will stay around and will continue to benefit the many countries that participate in it, it will not crumble. Sure it will change but for the better and the UK will be the catalyst.
What will the benefits be for the UK, they will be left alone from European decisions but since its own market is already aimed at a more liberal approach it will be more money for the rich and the security for the less well monetary off will be shafted. Scotland might just decide to walk away and join the EU after all.
When it comes to the big trade agreements the UK will be at the little boys table as they do not compare to the EU, the US, China & Russia. Their leverage is way too small, Obama warned for that and if Trump gets into power he will steamroll the Uk as it is just business to prey on the weak.
The British Banking system will no longer sway a big stick over Europe as they are essentially will be ruled by EU regulations if they want to do something and will find out that the UK has little pull to protect them from the regulations they then will have to fully abide by. And they know that that is why they are so strongly opposed to Brexit.
I am just not sure what so many find a post EU Europe will deliver, it will not solve trade or the refugee problem we created that ourselves with our ill-advised wars in the middle east by our US brothers/sister. I think we will find a much stronger EU after a Brexit, with no more parties with a vote and an opt-out clause at their beckoning.
I say your Brits should vote out, it will be a bloody great gift for the rest of us. When you want back in you will have to really be European or stay out. All the way in or out. I prefer a Brexit as the exceptions they have in the EU today will be gone and we are all in an equal playing field.
That said Portugal and Ireland for that have done very well economical under the umbrella of the EU.
Actually, it is of my opinion that Spain is really changing for the better. The new, young generation is now used about the inevitability of their economy. So what you see now is this: Many research companies and entrepeneurs see opportunities for start-ups and relocations of their (UK) companies in Madrid and Barcelona. It's cheap, and there are just thousands of youngsters with terrific educational backgrounds who otherwise can't work here.
Sorry guys & girls, not going to happen, the EU leaders don't believe they're doing anything wrong, like a heavy drinker who doesn't think he's got a problem until admitted to hospital with liver faliure.
You only have to look at the ass kissing Cameron had to do to get the insipid set of so called exemptions, which by the way have still to be ratified & could be changed or repealed at any time in the future by a majority decision in the EU Commision.
I believe Britain has to lead the way, if we leave other's will follow.
I'm not anti Europe, I drive a German car, love Italian & French cuisine, I drink Dutch Beer etc etc.
I'm just anti Bureaucratic unelected dictatorships, when we joined the then Economic Community it was for trade only, not to have our rules overuled by, & I repeat myself, UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS !
It can happen. I understand your anger. And it's true that many politicians in Brussels are bureaucrats. But saying that the EU is an unelected dictatorship really goes too far.
I think it's a shame that we tend to use definitions of which we don't know what it means anymore:
The EU is by the very definition no dictatorship. It's an entity that has got an elected parliament. It even elects very anti-EU oriented parties in the parliament. It is even so democratic, that it is open for membership of any country (like the UK entering the EU after a successful referendum in 1973, thus leaving the EFTA. And the option to do the reverse thing, in two weeks time).
So no dictatorship here. By the very essence of 'dictatorship', you should mention Venezuela. Or what about countries like China, Russia, Turkey, Belarus and Saudi-Arabia, who are on the brink of becoming a real dictatorship or already are a dictatorship.
If we twist definitions like you do, we actually start destroying our own intellect that was the basis for democracy. Thus endangering our own democracies.
To be honest nobody does know what the consequences will be if there is a Brexit, but they will be most felt by the UK that is what everybody can agree on.
The Definition as follows I think sums it up.
"Dictatorship is 'a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique' or 'a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated"
As in the 28 members of the EU commission, none of whom is elected by the people.
The end objective of the EU is a United States of Europe.
As to @SaintMark I don't agree, I think Brexit will be felt most in the failing EU economys such as Greece & Spain, because there will be a hugh hole in the EU budget which none of the other nations will be keen to step up & fill.
This could hasten the collaspe of the EU which as things stand is simply a matter of time.
As to no one following us, I think the Netherlands might have something to say about that.
That's just not true. And that idea is long gone within the EU. Yes, we do have a single Euro currency, but that's more a neo-liberal approach to capitalism. And even those neo-liberals were not in favor of a political union.
I do have to say though, that personally the idea of a United States of Europe sounds very appealing to me. Small countries nowadays can't dictate politics in large super-nations like USA, China and Russia. That's the prime reason that the decline of the middle class and its subsequent loss in welfare and prosperity is felt much harder here on the European continent.
I'm still surprised how many people can be so deluded that neo/ultra-nationalism is the solution to these problems. An open mindset, an international approach was the very key to the rise of the British and Dutch Empire. But those days are over for centuries. We still profit from the net result, in that we have relatively good lives. But that life is under pressure heavily.
And even if we welcome Russia as the next world power dictating politics in Europe -and the UK-, then that still is a prime example of smaller countries not being able to manage themselves without any interference of a world power.
Therefore a United States of Europe sounds lovely to me. If people deal with this idea in a democratic way, then it can be much more successful than the undemocratic British Empire ever was.
Very well put.
My vote for out is almost as much a rejection of Cameron's insipid leadership as it is the Eurocrats.
I would be quite happy to stay in if genuine reform was on the table or we had a leader who could go out there and play hardball (a certain Mrs T springs to mind). But the 'hard won' deal Cameron came back with was embarassing. If that's how much the UK is listened to then what's the point?
History is shaped by exterior coincidences and happenings (Gavrilo Princip's sandwich and all that) so do we think what is happening with the England fans could influence the vote?
If, as seems incredibly likely, there are more clashes with English and Russia fans and UEFA follows through on its threat to expel the teams mere days before polling day would this see an anti European swell of feeling that's swings the vote towards Brexit?
I wouldn't put it past Putin to have organised the attacks and all the ultras were FSB. He's already shown over Crimea he's a far more wily operator than Obama and anyone in the EU.
Get at least your facts right:
Absolute power means absolute. You never lived in any kind of dictatorship. You'd have more than enough reason for sh***y whinin, only you'd do it from some cellar then.
As for being elected:
The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker) proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament.[5] The Council then appoints the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[6] The current Commission is the Juncker Commission, which took office in late 2014.
The European Council is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission.
Look it up on Wikipedia if you will, I'm too lazy. So the European Commission is in effect suggested by the governments of the European Union. And each Commissioner has to be elected by the European Parliament, a body even our Frenchman in clubland drag is happy enough to sit in and waste our money on, hooray.
So will Scotland!
Disgusting comment. Any sensible person first demands an apology from the English and Russian Football Association.
Secondly, you know exactly why hooliganism has become so big....especially in Russia? Because Russia isn't doing a shit about hooliganism. In fact, Putin needs hooligans for his electorate, as those seem hooligans massively vote for Putin.
A disgrace how you nullify everything Europe stands for and are willing to replace it by Russian 'ideals'.
Furthermore, everyone slams the USA and Europe nowadays. The same USA got slammed for years and years that they were invading Iraq and Afghanistan. And now Russia is doing similar stuff in Syria and Cremea it's suddenly 'a good thing'? Pathetic.
Oowh, absolutely. We haven't discussed Scotland yet in this topic. London should be prepared for a very angry Scottish government. Because Scotland massively wants to stay in the EU. And so short after a close independence referendum (September 2014), the very Kingdom won't be much United anymore either.
What the f**k are you talking about?
Where do I say that I want to replace European ideals with Russian racism, homophobia and hooliganism?
I'm just hypothesising about how the current situation may play out.
Putin's largesse is certainly not a good thing but it can't be denied that he outmanoeuvred the EU and US over Crimea by ignoring their empty threats and going and doing what he wanted. Now he knows that we are just hot air and really haven't got the bottle to stand up to him.
I agree with you on the football situation and how it may influence the vote as well.
First claiming those ideals don't exist and then supporting them makes you rather unbeleavable.
Rest assured that those in power (Juncker i.e.) are actively working towards one super power. The Euro was meant to do just that: take away cultural barriers so we could end up in a USE. Not willing to learn from 2000 years of bloody history these people still want to unite Europe.
Insinuating that those who oppose the current EU are thus right-wing extremists is rather insulting.
You may be an educated person living an international life, but you're in an absolute minority there. The regular John Doe living on his average wage only goes camping once a year. And yes, that may be to France (like every year) but that doesn't mean he's capable of working together with those French he knows from the campsite.
The EU is an elitist contraption with flagrant disregard for Europe as a continent, it's history and it's people. Pity, a bit more realism would've brought us a lot further.
Every single EU failure is met by the 'need' to enlarge it's power, instead of a fundamental reform. We might not have ended up in a direct war up until now, but go and explain those poor Bosnians why the EU was utterly incapable of ending that conflict. And @Gustav, ask any Dutchbat soldier what really happened in Srebrenica, and why they were armed so lightly and didn't get air support.
That as well is the reason I voted against the association treaty with the Ukraine: It's giving false hope to the Ukrainians, and when the Russians do strike, the EU will stand back out of fear for Moscow and it's the Ukrainians who'll pay for it in their blood.
@TheWizard I'm afraid you might be right about those hooligans. It's a political weapon in a way the old KGB would've organised it. It's meant to strengthen the Brexit side to the referendum. Putin won't leave a stone unturned to weaken the EU. Apparently he isn't quite aware the EU is already dying.
That's stupid babble and repeating it doesn't make it any truer. The Commission is as a body proposed by the 28 member governments and confirmed by the European Parliament. The mere fact you haven't been asked personally beforehand regarding your opinion of it doesn't turn it into a "dictatorship". You also haven't been asked to elect secretaries of state/ministers/undersecretaries in whatever country you are from, have you?
Spend a few days in Syria to get an idea of a dictatorship, then you will see clearer.
That's stupid babble and repeating it doesn't make it any truer. The Commission is as a body proposed by the 28 member governments and confirmed by the European Parliament. The mere fact you haven't been asked personally beforehand regarding your opinion of it doesn't turn it into a "dictatorship". You also haven't been asked to elect secretaries of state/ministers/undersecretaries in whatever country you are from, have you?
Spend a few days in Syria to get an idea of a dictatorship, then you will see clearer.
How....how dare you. First of all, I work and live in Spain. I am happy. But if you do want to know my net salary? Well, here you have it:
--> Excluding 12% income taxes
--> Excluding a meager Bonus
--> My net income per month is: EURO 1,250! Net!
--> And I have to work 42 hours for that!
--> My brother, who works in Utrecht, his net income is EURO 1,000 higher!!
--> So his net income / month is: EURO 2,250!!
On top of that, I have to repay lots of taxes back over 2013 (EURO 1,950), because the Agencia Tributaria (Belastingdienst) is a corrupt shithole in comparison to The Netherlands! And the cost of living in Barcelona? It's slightly more expensive then Groningen...where I used to live and work.
Secondly, I am a very well educated person yes, but I didn't manage to get my Bachelor's Degree (Hogeschool) despite an insane amount of perseverance and several psychological issues (I committed suicide two times!). I fought for it. Fought for it! But because Dutch society doesn't accept my capabilities, and lack of a diploma, I was at least fortunate that Spain needed someone with good language skills!
I'm fighting all my life, just like the average 'John Doe' you are referring too. But in the end I have to conclude that society in Spain on the whole is at least more forgiving than many Dutchies. They understand my biggest struggles in life. And BECAUSE I am in this situation, I actually admire the European Union, for making life more easier for me to relocate! I can's save money, and I will probably have huge problems in the future with regard to a possible pension. But I'm still happy under this bright sunny Spanish sky!
And despite all these huge struggles in my life, I keep Kennedy's motto high: Don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. And despite all shit, I damn well know my fate, and that a lot of my struggles in life are because of my OWN PERSONALITY.
Again, I am happy here, but your remark, that of a 'mede-Nederlander', really really disappoints me. You are judgemental. Entirely. And you keep slamming people for all the wrong reasons. You even keep slamming a fellow countryman whose personal life you don't understand at all! Shame on you.
As an Englishman, I have no issue if the whinging Scots want to try & make it on their own & apply to join the EU as an independant nation, let's face it Britain hasn't been united in years, the only other country other than England to honor the Queen by having God save the Queen as their national anthem is Northern Ireland.
Best use of lottery money would be to rebuild a replica of Hadrians wall on the Scottish & Welsh boarders. [-O<
I agree. Although the money might be better spent on the English education system.
Such a shame as I was with you all the way to that final faux pas.