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No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited September 2017 Posts: 16,362
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Are you offering me outside for an undignified rumble in the street?

    The mid 90's, when everyone went on the internet for the first time, called and wants its threats back.

    You seem to have totally lost the plot at what was a bit of good natured joshing by @barryt007 and at same time seem to have proved Partridge's point.

    Oh I'm sorry, did I strike a nerve? I must bow in forgiveness to the almighty wizard. Don't make me laugh. I didn't threaten you at all. Why don't you stop hiding behind Partridge and just own up to your mistakes.
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    I think it's actually easier in person to be fair. I think we all give our friends shit and take the piss out of them in person don't we, and everyone involved knows it's just a laugh. But on a forum, with written text posts from people we don't really know, it's much easier for something meant as a joke to be taken to heart. You can rip into someone in person and be laughing and joking and they can tell it isn't malicious in the slightest. Bit harder to get that across through an anomynous message board I reckon, but @BondJason doesn't seem to have taken issue with it so he probably understands it's all just banter. No harm done. Besides he was/is in the army. He'll be used to banter like that.

    @thelivingroyale, It's easy to do I'm sure but sometimes words hurt people. But you can't know for sure how Jason feels. If he wants to chip in, I'm sure he will but when I see my friends treated like this, whether or not it was a joke, I'm going to call it out like I see it.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    @TheWizardOfIce I think Bond is more of a Top Gear repeats on Dave man when it comes to depressed lounging around TV watching but I see what you mean with the footage now. But I would like to see a broken depressed Bond, who hates Blofeld for ruining his life, because I think it's a must to do YOLT right. I completely get why people aren't keen but I think they have the opportunity so may as well go for it. Go all out, get all of the personal drama out of their systems with this one and really do YOLT justice, and then we can go back to straightforward Bond on a mission films with the next actor.
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
  • fjdinardofjdinardo
    Posts: 1,993
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    I don't think if they go down the YOLT route it necessarily has to be about revenge, but I hope that they don't just go "garden of death, cool" take that and then just do a straightforward Bond is sent by MI6 to stop Blofeld film either. I think how bleak and surreal it is is what makes the book special and a broken self doubting Bond, not sure where he's going until he finds renewed purpose towards the end, is a big part of that imo.

    So I think you do have to break Bond down and put him in a dark place to do it justice. But the more I think about it the more I'm not keen on killing Madeline off (and especially not keen on them getting married, please don't let that be true). But I think she does have to be addressed.

    How about she leaves Bond because he can't live a normal life. Sparing Blofeld has put him on edge when he hears about his escape (I really like your idea of footage of him torturing Vesper being shown at his trial too @TheWizardOfIce, that'd get to Bond, make him more menacing and make the retcon more believeable) and he's paranoid. On edge. Madeline leaves him and this sends him into a spiral of self destruction, drinking, self pity, etc. Madeline, his last chance at happiness, is gone. So he blames Blofeld for ruining his life. And with no work to focus on, he's got nothing to stop himself from sitting and mulling over the events of the last few films. He's being forced to deal with feelings he'd repressed (maybe he could develop PTSD?) and seeing that footage of Vesper in particular has opened up old wounds. M hears of how he is, pities him, offers him a new job in the diplomatic section out of sympathy, and then we get YOLT.

    Bit contrived but more interesting than Madeline dying right? The "Taken with Bond" comments have be a bit worried too. Bond isn't out for revenge in YOLT. Not until the end anyway. Most of the book is just him going down the rabbit hole on this weird surreal journey. You'd have to add more action obviously (bullet train fight please) but I think a whole film of him knowingly hunting down Blofeld would be missing the point a bit. I probably sound picky but it's my favourite of the novels and this would be the only Bond adaptation where I hadn't seen the film first (didn't start reading the books until after CR came out), so if they're going to use it I just hope they do it properly.

    I like your ideas
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    I don't think if they go down the YOLT route it necessarily has to be about revenge, but I hope that they don't just go "garden of death, cool" take that and then just do a straightforward Bond is sent by MI6 to stop Blofeld film either. I think how bleak and surreal it is is what makes the book special and a broken self doubting Bond, not sure where he's going until he finds renewed purpose towards the end, is a big part of that imo.

    So I think you do have to break Bond down and put him in a dark place to do it justice. But the more I think about it the more I'm not keen on killing Madeline off (and especially not keen on them getting married, please don't let that be true). But I think she does have to be addressed.

    How about she leaves Bond because he can't live a normal life. Sparing Blofeld has put him on edge when he hears about his escape (I really like your idea of footage of him torturing Vesper being shown at his trial too @TheWizardOfIce, that'd get to Bond, make him more menacing and make the retcon more believeable) and he's paranoid. On edge. Madeline leaves him and this sends him into a spiral of self destruction, drinking, self pity, etc. Madeline, his last chance at happiness, is gone. So he blames Blofeld for ruining his life. And with no work to focus on, he's got nothing to stop himself from sitting and mulling over the events of the last few films. He's being forced to deal with feelings he'd repressed (maybe he could develop PTSD?) and seeing that footage of Vesper in particular has opened up old wounds. M hears of how he is, pities him, offers him a new job in the diplomatic section out of sympathy, and then we get YOLT.

    Bit contrived but more interesting than Madeline dying right? The "Taken with Bond" comments have be a bit worried too. Bond isn't out for revenge in YOLT. Not until the end anyway. Most of the book is just him going down the rabbit hole on this weird surreal journey. You'd have to add more action obviously (bullet train fight please) but I think a whole film of him knowingly hunting down Blofeld would be missing the point a bit. I probably sound picky but it's my favourite of the novels and this would be the only Bond adaptation where I hadn't seen the film first (didn't start reading the books until after CR came out), so if they're going to use it I just hope they do it properly.

    I like your ideas

    Thank you. I like your profile picture. Brosnan always looked unbelieveably cool with a gun in his hand.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    The only way I can see this happening - properly, is if they are two back to back films and a new love intrest pops up- a better one- and then she is killed and then yolt. But why would he marry madeline?- shes a shit character. Just because she is mr whites daughter doesnt mean "shes the only one who couldve understood him"
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited September 2017 Posts: 10,592
    I think that's excellent, @thelivingroyale, and definitely the direction I was hoping they'd go in following SP. I can't imagine that people who want a classically structured Bond film would appreciate it, but as long as they have Craig in the role I would much prefer they play to his strengths in the way that you've described.

    God I hope this happens.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.

    I understand what you mean about trying to have it both ways with SP. The blend of different styles (classic Bond but also character focused like the other Craig films) is what I loved about it but it was a weird choice. On the one hand it was a deliberate Moore/Brosnan throwback, on the other hand they seemed to want to set up a Tracy retread (I think Bunt and "we have all the time in the world" both being in the script at one point makes that clear). I thought it worked well but I understand why it's been so divisive because by trying to have it both ways, they alienated a lot of fans who would have been happy if they'd gone all out on either approach (a proper old school OTT Bond film or a proper Craig Bond film).

    I hope that you enjoy the next one more. It'd be nice to get another film that nearly all of us can enjoy again. That really added to the excitement when SF came out I think. There were so many posts on here unaminously singing its praises (got a bit more divisive as time went on but in those early days nearly all of us seemed to love it).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    No one's going to remember Madeleine four years after Sp. If any of the general public does, she was "just another Bond girl never seen from again."

    I'd love to see Bond living off the grid, perhaps even enjoying this life (albeit a little restlessly); he spends the days with married mistresses, the nights in the casinos... But, yes, he does have that "itch". He does realize that the life he's leading is meandering...

    So, when he hears there's a hearing for Blofeld, Bond sneaks back into the country to bare witness. And this is where he sees the video of Blofeld torturing Vesper.

    Bond's blood boils, but--

    It's within seconds of this video showing that--

    A huge explosion and Blofeld is sprung from jail (leaving behind a bunch of corpses)...

    Later that day, SPECTRE's big ticking-time bomb scheme is revealed. It has to be something that is also a trap to bring Bond out from the bushes he hides in.

    Bond, loaded with the "itch", the video of Vesper, and knowing, although this is a trap, his country is calling him, marches back into MI6 (since "Blofeld's a bit of a must" for him, on several different levels). He asks M for his licence to kill.

    No Maddy. Not even a mention of her.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    jake24 wrote: »
    I think that's excellent, @thelivingroyale, and definitely the direction I was hoping they'd go in following SP. I can't imagine that people who want a classically structured Bond film would appreciate it, but as long as they have Craig in the role I would much prefer they play to his strengths in the way that you've described.

    God I hope this happens.

    Same, I'm praying that the next few details we get will hint at that direction (if they end up location scouting in Japan for example my excitement levels will go through the roof). I was all for a classically structured Bond film to be honest but that was when I thought there'd be a new actor. But instead Craig is back for one more, and since we'll be getting a refresh/reboot of sorts in a few years anyway where they can do something more old school and traditional they may as well go all in and do something different for the next one. Please the Fleming fans and give Craig some proper dramatic material to sink his teeth into. YOLT would be right up his street. They've got the perfect opportunity and the perfect Bond for it so like you I really hope that's what they do.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.

    I understand what you mean about trying to have it both ways with SP. The blend of different styles (classic Bond but also character focused like the other Craig films) is what I loved about it but it was a weird choice. On the one hand it was a deliberate Moore/Brosnan throwback, on the other hand they seemed to want to set up a Tracy retread (I think Bunt and "we have all the time in the world" both being in the script at one point makes that clear). I thought it worked well but I understand why it's been so divisive because by trying to have it both ways, they alienated a lot of fans who would have been happy if they'd gone all out on either approach (a proper old school OTT Bond film or a proper Craig Bond film).

    I hope that you enjoy the next one more. It'd be nice to get another film that nearly all of us can enjoy again. That really added to the excitement when SF came out I think. There were so many posts on here unaminously singing its praises (got a bit more divisive as time went on but in those early days nearly all of us seemed to love it).
    I'm sure I'll enjoy it more. As long as Craig reconnects with his Bond and the performances, characterizations, score & visuals are on a higher level than SP I will be able to forgive a lot.

    SP has been a terribly divisive film for the fan community, and it's quite unfortunate all round. More than anything, I think the negativity is there because of the connectivity. If it was a standalone film nobody would mind that much imho, but the fact that it is a part of a connected (and potentially continuing) whole and fell flat with so many people is where the problem really lies imho. That's really why I wanted Craig out.

    B26 is the one I can't wait for though, and I hope it's out two years after B25, as you said. I'm not getting any younger!
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    I think that's excellent, @thelivingroyale, and definitely the direction I was hoping they'd go in following SP. I can't imagine that people who want a classically structured Bond film would appreciate it, but as long as they have Craig in the role I would much prefer they play to his strengths in the way that you've described.

    God I hope this happens.

    Same, I'm praying that the next few details we get will hint at that direction (if they end up location scouting in Japan for example my excitement levels will go through the roof). I was all for a classically structured Bond film to be honest but that was when I thought there'd be a new actor. But instead Craig is back for one more, and since we'll be getting a refresh/reboot of sorts in a few years anyway where they can do something more old school and traditional they may as well go all in and do something different for the next one. Please the Fleming fans and give Craig some proper dramatic material to sink his teeth into. YOLT would be right up his street. They've got the perfect opportunity and the perfect Bond for it so like you I really hope that's what they do.
    You and me both, mate. Fingers crossed.

    @peter another sound idea.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Thanks @jake24! Took a little of what I had written before and mixed it with @TheWizardOfIce and his idea...

    (on a separate matter: so far I haven't been able to get tics for the premiere of KINGS (today I walked into a s-storm (from kids going back to school, to business on my end); but, no matter, I will be there to see DC arrive with my teenage kids (who all love DC-- although my boy couldn't stand SP to the point it had almost ruined his entire feelings about the franchise... Luckily he is cooling (after he recently saw CR while up at a friends cottage this summer-- he was blown away again by how good it was , so, as another Bond famously said-- "saved by the bell"))...
  • MancAliceMancAlice Manchester
    Posts: 20
    @peter Love the idea!
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    peter wrote: »
    Thanks @jake24! Took a little of what I had written before and mixed it with @TheWizardOfIce and his idea...

    (on a separate matter: so far I haven't been able to get tics for the premiere of KINGS (today I walked into a s-storm (from kids going back to school, to business on my end); but, no matter, I will be there to see DC arrive with my teenage kids (who all love DC-- although my boy couldn't stand SP to the point it had almost ruined his entire feelings about the franchise... Luckily he is cooling (after he recently saw CR while up at a friends cottage this summer-- he was blown away again by how good it was , so, as another Bond famously said-- "saved by the bell"))...
    Shame you weren't able to get tickets, but hopefully you'll at least be able to see DC.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.

    I understand what you mean about trying to have it both ways with SP. The blend of different styles (classic Bond but also character focused like the other Craig films) is what I loved about it but it was a weird choice. On the one hand it was a deliberate Moore/Brosnan throwback, on the other hand they seemed to want to set up a Tracy retread (I think Bunt and "we have all the time in the world" both being in the script at one point makes that clear). I thought it worked well but I understand why it's been so divisive because by trying to have it both ways, they alienated a lot of fans who would have been happy if they'd gone all out on either approach (a proper old school OTT Bond film or a proper Craig Bond film).

    I hope that you enjoy the next one more. It'd be nice to get another film that nearly all of us can enjoy again. That really added to the excitement when SF came out I think. There were so many posts on here unaminously singing its praises (got a bit more divisive as time went on but in those early days nearly all of us seemed to love it).
    I'm sure I'll enjoy it more. As long as Craig reconnects with his Bond and the performances, characterizations, score & visuals are on a higher level than SP I will be able to forgive a lot.

    SP has been a terribly divisive film for the fan community, and it's quite unfortunate all round. More than anything, I think the negativity is there because of the connectivity. If it was a standalone film nobody would mind that much imho, but the fact that it is a part of a connected (and potentially continuing) whole and fell flat with so many people is where the problem really lies imho. That's really why I wanted Craig out.

    B26 is the one I can't wait for though, and I hope it's out two years after B25, as you said. I'm not getting any younger!

    Nope, the reasons SPECTRE was criticised were the brother angle, the scooby gang overdose, an uninteresting love interest who is supposed to be Bond's new great love and a boring third act. Also, the fact the movie lacks an identity as it both tries to be an OTT yet a Craig movie at the same time, as stated above. Those were the movie's main problems.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Thanks @MancAlice, nice of you to say!... We're all the same on this one: we want to see the best film EoN can give us, so, in the end, my fingers are crossed that they deliver on DC's final outing.

    They took a risk bringing him back.

    An even bigger one by saying it's his last.

    The pressure, and the ball, is in their court now...

    (by the way-- great profile pic!)

    @jake24-- if you want to meet another MI6/Bond fan that day, please PM or email me. Coffee's on me!)
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Walecs wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.
    bondjames wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale , I don't have a problem with Madeleine leaving Bond because he can't live a normal life. I'm not keen on the idea of him going into a drunken state of depression on account of it though. Smith already gave me enough of this sap with his dirge and I'd rather not have to endure any more of it. Madeleine isn't even worth the bother imho and SP didn't build up their relationship well enough for this to work.

    I like the Vesper flashback idea though (any chance for Eva Green returning would be worth it).

    My preference would be for Madeleine to be dealt with off-camera prior to the film starting (either she died or she left him) and let B25 start a few years after the events of SP.

    To clarify, the depression would be because his last chance at a normal life has gone out the window and because with no missions to go on he's finally been forced to deal with the trauma of all he's been through, but I get you. I don't mind if her leaving happens off camera either. I just think a broken Bond is a must if they're going down the YOLT route. I can see why people aren't keen and I was routing for a recast and a stand alone film myself, but with Craig being back and them sort of setting it up this seems like the perfect opportunity to go down the YOLT route so that's what I'd like to see. Go all out, make it dark and surreal and character driven, and then do something more fun and straight forward with the next actor (preferrably only two years later rather than half a decade but not holding my breath).
    I hear you and most likely this is the direction they will head in. I just wish they had set it up in a better manner with SP. They definitely tried to have it both (all?) ways with that film and sort of botched the lead in, unnecessarily complicating matters imho.

    You're right though. Since they've got Craig back they might as well go all in.

    I understand what you mean about trying to have it both ways with SP. The blend of different styles (classic Bond but also character focused like the other Craig films) is what I loved about it but it was a weird choice. On the one hand it was a deliberate Moore/Brosnan throwback, on the other hand they seemed to want to set up a Tracy retread (I think Bunt and "we have all the time in the world" both being in the script at one point makes that clear). I thought it worked well but I understand why it's been so divisive because by trying to have it both ways, they alienated a lot of fans who would have been happy if they'd gone all out on either approach (a proper old school OTT Bond film or a proper Craig Bond film).

    I hope that you enjoy the next one more. It'd be nice to get another film that nearly all of us can enjoy again. That really added to the excitement when SF came out I think. There were so many posts on here unaminously singing its praises (got a bit more divisive as time went on but in those early days nearly all of us seemed to love it).
    I'm sure I'll enjoy it more. As long as Craig reconnects with his Bond and the performances, characterizations, score & visuals are on a higher level than SP I will be able to forgive a lot.

    SP has been a terribly divisive film for the fan community, and it's quite unfortunate all round. More than anything, I think the negativity is there because of the connectivity. If it was a standalone film nobody would mind that much imho, but the fact that it is a part of a connected (and potentially continuing) whole and fell flat with so many people is where the problem really lies imho. That's really why I wanted Craig out.

    B26 is the one I can't wait for though, and I hope it's out two years after B25, as you said. I'm not getting any younger!

    Nope, the reasons SPECTRE was criticised were the brother angle, the scooby gang overdose, an uninteresting love interest who is supposed to be Bond's new great love and a boring third act. Also, the fact the movie lacks an identity as it both tries to be an OTT yet a Craig movie at the same time, as stated above. Those were the movie's main problems.

    Perfectly summarized- i might even add terrible dialogue and an uninteresting story/ premise inbetween the action
  • MancAliceMancAlice Manchester
    Posts: 20
    @peter You're right - he simply has to go out on a high note! Thank you so much! :)
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    Seeing Eva Green back in a bond film would make a lot fans here happy and a nice bookend. Madeline back not so much, and i liked her personally. But as far as YOLT, the actor who got CR should not get OHMSS or YOLT, in any form. Those two stories are paired and should go to another actor down the line. And I'm saying this as someone who wants modern adaptations above all else. In the books, Fleming doesn't bring Tracy into the series until like 10 books and years of adventures after CR which makes sense. Go after Blofeld if you want but make it another story or adapt another book that included Spectre and add the escape, Vesper tie-ins. No broken Bond. Pissed Bond.
  • GetCarterGetCarter
    edited September 2017 Posts: 386
    For me, the problem is simple.

    The writers / producers have conditioned the audience to expect big, dramatic beats in the modern, DC era. They come at the expense of good spy yarns.

    The most critically acclaimed DC films in CR and SF both have "big drama".

    The problem with this approach is you can only use each "drama bomb" once.

    We've had Bond in love and we've had Bond lose his surrogate mother.

    Me, I loathe how big drama has crept into Bond. I am warming more and more to QoS (a very flawed film) precisely because it is the only DC feature with a fully developed plot.

    If you look closely, none of the others have a narrative worth a damn. I love CR because it was fresh and it had style to spare. But going after Le Chiffre's money? Really?

    Give me a f**cking plot. Study FYEO. Study TLD. Expand and modernise those structures and, for the love of all that is good, forget about emotive beats.

    Won't happen though. Subscription TV has ruined us all.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    I insist I'd rather not have Madeleine back. The character just isn't a strong enough foundation upon which to build the next film. They can and probably should mention her, but anything beyond that would be too much. I like the general thrust of @peter 's idea, but I don't want Vesper serving as motivation for Bond again either; I just feel it would be strange to go back to that territory after Madeleine. I think they could just start with Bond on his own, feeling that "itch" peter describes, then they could have Blofeld escape from prison and reveal his evil plan, leading to Bond getting reacquainted with his contacts at MI6, wishing to participate in bringing him down once again. There could be a new Bond girl and she could inquire about his life, which would lead him to talk about Vesper and Madeleine, but no more than that.

    GetCarter wrote: »
    Give me a f**cking plot. Study FYEO. Study TLD. Expand and modernise those structures and, for the love of all that is good, forget about emotive beats.
    I hope so. While I've enjoyed the premises of the Craig Bond films, I wish we had more of the plot details and intricacies we used to get.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    @mattjoes, do you think Madeleine actually has any impact that the general audience remembers beyond: the chick Bond drove away with at the end of the last movie?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    peter wrote: »
    @mattjoes, do you think Madeleine actually has any impact that the general audience remembers beyond: the chick Bond drove away with at the end of the last movie?
    Not at all. Any dialogue that mentioned Madeleine would be there just to provide narrative closure, in keeping with the spirit of the continuity-heavy Craig era, and taking into consideration Bond happens to be with her when he leaves the service at the end of Spectre (assuming of course he in fact does leave). As far as I'm concerned, after Craig departs they can go back to having the girl disappear at the end of the film.
  • Tuck91Tuck91
    Posts: 1,680
    The wont go this route regarding the new rumor. Wislon already said last year there looking for the next real world threat for the next one, the film will be more plot based with a statement on the character of DCs Bond for the next film IMO.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,334
    I've just seen the "likely false" rumor at the head of this page. I'm curious: why does the originator of this thread believe the so-called leak to be false, especially when the entire Craig series has been one continuous and evolving saga after another? Despite our dissatisfaction with the Madeleine character, and our hopes that she won't appear in B25, it's highly unlikely that the producers or the writers are simply going to ignore her existence and completely airbrush her out of the picture. I don't particularly care for her myself, as I mentioned in an earlier post, but that doesn't mean squat as I'm not involved in the production. Even if the source is bogus, it's more than likely this will be the route the next movie will take. Craig will not get a standalone adventure, everything will have to be tied-up neatly by the closing credits.

    And @Tuck91, the "real world threat" will most likely be a subplot, a McGuffin, much like the "solex agitator" in TMWTGG or "Nine Eyes" in SP, along with many other examples from previous old Bond movies I care not to mention. B25 can still have room to include Madeleine's death and the "rumor of revenge" plus a real world threat.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    @bondsum I call it "likely false" because it originates from a publisher that many refer to as the nadir of tabloids, and given their track record we should take this story with the tiniest pinch of salt.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,334
    Thanks for your reply @jake24. I must admit, I know nothing about the publisher of this story or its previous track record. I'll also admit that it's all rather vague and hardly a major scoop, considering that this is pretty much the only route the story can take, unless Madeleine features extensively throughout the entire movie and acts as his personal aid in bringing down whatever threat or obstacles that stand in his way.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    bondsum wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply @jake24. I must admit, I know nothing about the publisher of this story or its previous track record. I'll also admit that it's all rather vague and hardly a major scoop, considering that this is pretty much the only route the story can take, unless Madeleine features extensively throughout the entire movie and acts as his personal aid in bringing down whatever threat or obstacles that stand in his way.
    I think the ideas presented by @thelivingroyale and @peter, and even @Gustav_Graves' "Murder on Wheels" perfectly showcase how a Madeleine dying, revenge story isn't the only way they could go with the next one.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,334
    I did have a glance at their suggestions @jake24, and as interesting as they are, I wouldn't necessarily summarize these "showcases" as "perfect". No offense intended to our imaginative contributors.
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