Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,926
    Roadphill wrote: »
    So for my controversial comment, I think that the lack of a discernible main villain in From Russia With Love hurts it a lot, and drops it out of the top 5, for me.

    When I consider how weak many of the subsequent villains were, this isn't a problem at all and the strength of the collection of villains in FRWL more than makes up for that. That all these villains are out there and Bond doesn't have a clear idea of who they are although we do adds to the suspense.

    That Blofeld is in the background as a mysterious figure works well. Grant is still the most frightening henchman of all and Klebb is just bizarre as is Kronsteen.

    Bond doesn't even meet Dr. No and Scaramanga until well into those films and their presence lingering over it works to their advantage and also builds the suspense.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    So for my controversial comment, I think that the lack of a discernible main villain in From Russia With Love hurts it a lot, and drops it out of the top 5, for me.

    When I consider how weak many of the subsequent villains were, this isn't a problem at all and the strength of the collection of villains in FRWL more than makes up for that. That all these villains are out there and Bond doesn't have a clear idea of who they are although we do adds to the suspense.

    That Blofeld is in the background as a mysterious figure works well. Grant is still the most frightening henchman of all and Klebb is just bizarre as is Kronsteen.
    I agree and this is how I feel as well. Sure, there's no one main villain, but there's a wonderfully eccentric, smart and deadly group of nemeses in the shadow in this film which makes one really believe in the reach and threat of Spectre. 'We have people everywhere' may have been a refrain from a later film, but here one really feels it.
  • Posts: 11,189
    From Russia With Love is the only film in the series that is "perfect".
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,452
    I think that's OHMSS.
  • Posts: 12,521
    CR and OHMSS are the "perfect" Bond films for me.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think that's OHMSS.

    Watched that last night. Excellent film but still a 4/5 scoring from me.

  • edited December 2017 Posts: 17,819
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    From Russia With Love is the only film in the series that is "perfect".

    I'll add two to that: OHMSS, and TB (maybe just as controversial – but hey, I never get tired of it!)
  • Posts: 7,507
    Any film containing that embarrassing "angels of death" middle part, cannot be regarded as perfect...

    But it's a great film nevertheless
  • Posts: 11,189
    jobo wrote: »
    Any film containing that embarrassing "angels of death" middle part, cannot be regarded as perfect...

    But it's a great film nevertheless

    "What's a gyna...geneologist"

    A crude, vulgar line.
  • GamesBond007GamesBond007 Golden Grotto
    Posts: 66


    What's weird for me is that a lot of my favourite Bond films have plenty of flaws, but I still put them above films that I'd call "objectively" better. I think I don't care about the problems of a film so long as there's enough good stuff for me to get past that and the overall product still resonates with me. A film can be perfectly fine in almost every way but if it's nothing special I'd rather watch a "worse" film that's at least a bit more weird and out there. I'll take something like DAD over something like TND basically, or AVTAK over FYEO.

    Could not agree more. I would absolutely say that CR/FRWL/OHMSS/DRNO are superior films yet none of them crack my personal top ten. Any number of things can contribute to a movie ranking higher on my list than an objectively better entry.

    Like you, TWINE is one of my favourite Bond films and while I am aware of its shortcomings, it still manages to sit so high because of a number of reasons that speak to me. Critical reception or general consensus never even cross my mind when coming to a conclusion regarding any film.

    You'd be more likely to see some more love for the so-called lesser entries if people weren't so susceptible to bandwagoning. Some people are more genuine with their picks too though.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883

    What's weird for me is that a lot of my favourite Bond films have plenty of flaws, but I still put them above films that I'd call "objectively" better. I think I don't care about the problems of a film so long as there's enough good stuff for me to get past that and the overall product still resonates with me. A film can be perfectly fine in almost every way but if it's nothing special I'd rather watch a "worse" film that's at least a bit more weird and out there. I'll take something like DAD over something like TND basically, or AVTAK over FYEO.

    Could not agree more. I would absolutely say that CR/FRWL/OHMSS/DRNO are superior films yet none of them crack my personal top ten. Any number of things can contribute to a movie ranking higher on my list than an objectively better entry.

    Like you, TWINE is one of my favourite Bond films and while I am aware of its shortcomings, it still manages to sit so high because of a number of reasons that speak to me. Critical reception or general consensus never even cross my mind when coming to a conclusion regarding any film.

    You'd be more likely to see some more love for the so-called lesser entries if people weren't so susceptible to bandwagoning. Some people are more genuine with their picks too though.
    I agree with the overall comments as well but not the specific choices, because the choices are in the eye of the beholder and we all are moved by certain things. I too find with film that I can prefer movies that are objectively much 'worse' than so called superior films. As an example, I really enjoyed SW8-TLJ but can't disagree with much of the criticisms of it. RO did nothing for me but from what I'm reading it is an objectively superior film.

    EDIT: Ultimately I think characterizations are key. If I can relate to the characters, the acting and the characterizations themselves I can pretty much forgive anything. If those don't work for me, then it's a tough road for the film to convince me. Same goes for visuals and tension for thrillers. Plot has never been a huge driving factor for me.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    From Russia With Love is the only film in the series that is "perfect".

    I would say that title belongs to GF and TSWLM.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited December 2017 Posts: 1,984
    I definitely don't think OHMSS is perfect. Quite a few weak line deliveries on George's part, a dragging middle section with the whole "Angels of Death" nonsense which makes the whole film feel like it takes forever.

    That being said, it's one of the best, I agree with that. I find FRWL better, though. Sean is a better Bond and there's not as much drag. And I prefer the villains in that one.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I definitely don't think OHMSS is perfect. Quite a few weak line deliveries on George's part, a dragging middle section with the whole "Angels of Death" nonsense which makes the whole film feel like it takes forever.

    That being said, it's one of the best, I agree with that. I find FRWL better, though. Sean is a better Bond and there's not as much drag. And I prefer the villains in that one.
    Agreed on all points.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    Posts: 2,005
    Controversy. Why not. I can do that ha ha...

    From Russia With Love: A great film, don't get me wrong.

    But....
    Lacks the sets that make DN, GF, TB, YOLT and DAF great.
    Lacks a main villain, no Dr. No, Goldfinger, Largo, Donald Blofeld or Charles Gray Blofeld.
    Lacks a villains lair. There's just...nothing.
    Lacks a great end-game. It just ends with something that you can find in any other Bond film in the middle section. A boat chase.

    I wouldn't go so far to say it's rather boring in places but OHMSS feels like a speeding bullet in comparison.

    It has nothing to do with Connery or the cast, they are all very solid. The story itself is very well written, but it's suspense only, Hitchcock style.
    As I said, the film is great, but I fail to see why everybody seems to have it as their No 1 or close to the top spot.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    Controversy. Why not. I can do that ha ha...

    From Russia With Love: A great film, don't get me wrong.

    But....
    Lacks the sets that make DN, GF, TB, YOLT and DAF great.
    Lacks a main villain, no Dr. No, Goldfinger, Largo, Donald Blofeld or Charles Gray Blofeld.
    Lacks a villains lair. There's just...nothing.
    Lacks a great end-game. It just ends with something that you can find in any other Bond film in the middle section. A boat chase.

    I wouldn't go so far to say it's rather boring in places but OHMSS feels like a speeding bullet in comparison.

    It has nothing to do with Connery or the cast, they are all very solid. The story itself is very well written, but it's suspense only, Hitchcock style.
    As I said, the film is great, but I fail to see why everybody seems to have it as their No 1 or close to the top spot.


    Well, the methods of the great pioneers have often puzzled conventional minds.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Controversy. Why not. I can do that ha ha...

    From Russia With Love: A great film, don't get me wrong.

    But....
    Lacks the sets that make DN, GF, TB, YOLT and DAF great.
    Lacks a main villain, no Dr. No, Goldfinger, Largo, Donald Blofeld or Charles Gray Blofeld.
    Lacks a villains lair. There's just...nothing.
    Lacks a great end-game. It just ends with something that you can find in any other Bond film in the middle section. A boat chase.

    I wouldn't go so far to say it's rather boring in places but OHMSS feels like a speeding bullet in comparison.

    It has nothing to do with Connery or the cast, they are all very solid. The story itself is very well written, but it's suspense only, Hitchcock style.
    As I said, the film is great, but I fail to see why everybody seems to have it as their No 1 or close to the top spot.

    I agree completely!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @Andi1996Ruegg , I can't disagree with anything you've written about the traditional missing elements in FRWL. I have it as my #1 Bond film, so perhaps I can respond to your post.

    Ultimately for me this film is very unique, for the reasons you note. In a series that has 23 other official entries, many of which borrow heavily from other films (even if they mix things up in various ways to try to pull the wool over the eyes of the uninitiated), this one is refreshingly different. As you said, it's suspenseful and Hitchcockian to a degree, and that's another reason I really like it. I love suspense thrillers. Sure, the pace is a bit unhurried compared to contemporary fare, but I contend that this allows the film to 'breathe' and develop atmosphere, as well as enabling character development. Even Barry's score has a bit more of an unusual dark staccato tone in places, which I really enjoy.

    You're correct in stating that there is no one main visible villain. However, we can tell in the film that Blofeld is the top dog, and not seeing him adds to the mystery inherent in the film. In place of one main villain we have two intriguing and charismatic schemers in Kronsteen and Klebb. Double trouble! Furthermore, Grant remains the most deadly unexaggerated henchman that Bond has ever faced imho. If that wasn't enough, Kerim Bey remains one of his most endearing friends. So in place of one predictable (and potentially dull) villain we have a whole slew of dynamic adversaries and charismatic colleagues.

    The film gives off an overriding romantic ambience to me as well (without being mushy like some later films) and I appreciate that aspect. I find Spectre using Bond's weakness against him by luring him in with an attractive woman to be tantalizing. The fact that he knows it's a trap and still takes the bait further adds to that element. Tatianna certainly has feelings for Bond, and her reactions after he finds out about her role on the train are moving.

    Yes, there is no main villain's lair, but instead we have a thrilling finale in Venice, with Klebb being forced to come to town to finish the job that her minions had botched. Tatianna's conflict at this point is interesting to watch, as she must quickly weigh her loyalty to Mother Russia vs. her affection for James. Either choice will have significant consequence for her. Additionally, in place of a lair we have some terrific sets and locations including the incredibly atmospheric and romantic Orient Express at night. How can one complain about that! There's also the chilling sequence inside the Hagia Sophia, the Basilica Cistern sequence (standing in for the basement under the embassy), and of course the ride on the Bosphorous Ferry. On top of all of that, we have one of the top two or three fights in any of the 24 films when Bond squares off against Grant in the confined space of the train cabin. That whole sequence still gives me the chills to this day, it's so well done. That's worth the price of any number of traditional machine gun shootouts imho.

    So ultimately it's all the unique attributes which you noted which make FRWL my #1 Bond film, and that's before we even discuss Sean Connery's killer performance, which I rank as one of the top two or three interpretations in a Bond film in the last 50+ years.

    In a strange way, and somewhat controversially perhaps, that's one of the reasons I like SF quite a lot too. It took the rulebook and threw it out the window, shaking up the series for the 50th anniversary. There are similarly suspenseful aspects in that film, and it's also suitably different from the rest. I have that ranked around the 9 mark.
  • Posts: 15,229
    There's no main villain in FRWL? Nonsense! There's at least two of them: Grant and Klebb.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,380
    jobo wrote: »
    Any film containing that embarrassing "angels of death" middle part, cannot be regarded as perfect...

    But it's a great film nevertheless

    I like the Angels of Death. They're certainly better integrated into the plot than later efforts like MR or OP.
  • Roadphill wrote: »
    So for my controversial comment, I think that the lack of a discernible main villain in From Russia With Love hurts it a lot, and drops it out of the top 5, for me.

    Don't really mind since Klebb and and Red Grant are two of the very best antagonists in the series. Off Camera Blofeld works really well too.

  • edited December 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I definitely don't think OHMSS is perfect. Quite a few weak line deliveries on George's part, a dragging middle section with the whole "Angels of Death" nonsense which makes the whole film feel like it takes forever.

    That being said, it's one of the best, I agree with that. I find FRWL better, though. Sean is a better Bond and there's not as much drag. And I prefer the villains in that one.

    Same. There isn't a single wrong/awkward note in FRWL.

    Majesty's is undoubtably one of the very best films but Lazenby's stiffness, awkward dubbing and too much back projection in places stop it from being number 1.

    ...and I did find myself cringing at the "gold balls" line when I saw OHMSS again on Xmas night.

    FRWL drips and oozes atmosphere from every orrific. EVERY cast member is perfect.

  • Posts: 7,537
    For me OHMSS just has everything i want from a Bond movie. Never fails to entertain me. As seen from posts here peoples views of Bond movies change over the years and depending on moods, films you expect to be great can be not as good at certain viewings. OHMSS never falls into that category for me . Love FRWL but certain viewings i found it draggy (its my favourite Fleming novel) and much as i like Klebb, i find her a bit cartoony (i always smile when she puts on those glasses of hers).
    Grant, though is one of the best villains. Shaw is a superb actor and their fight scene is a cracker! Someone mentioned about doing something different which is all well and good. For me OHMSS took the traditional elements we are all familiar with and made them seem fresh and new. (A lot of this was down to Peter Hunt. Shame he never got to do another Bond film). Poor George is still getting a hard time, but the more times i see him in this the more i like. He's certainly a more convincing Bond than a certain Mr. Brosnan!!
  • Posts: 17,819
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Andi1996Ruegg , I can't disagree with anything you've written about the traditional missing elements in FRWL. I have it as my #1 Bond film, so perhaps I can respond to your post.

    Ultimately for me this film is very unique, for the reasons you note. In a series that has 23 other official entries, many of which borrow heavily from other films (even if they mix things up in various ways to try to pull the wool over the eyes of the uninitiated), this one is refreshingly different. As you said, it's suspenseful and Hitchcockian to a degree, and that's another reason I really like it. I love suspense thrillers. Sure, the pace is a bit unhurried compared to contemporary fare, but I contend that this allows the film to 'breathe' and develop atmosphere, as well as enabling character development. Even Barry's score has a bit more of an unusual dark staccato tone in places, which I really enjoy.

    You're correct in stating that there is no one main visible villain. However, we can tell in the film that Blofeld is the top dog, and not seeing him adds to the mystery inherent in the film. In place of one main villain we have two intriguing and charismatic schemers in Kronsteen and Klebb. Double trouble! Furthermore, Grant remains the most deadly unexaggerated henchman that Bond has ever faced imho. If that wasn't enough, Kerim Bey remains one of his most endearing friends. So in place of one predictable (and potentially dull) villain we have a whole slew of dynamic adversaries and charismatic colleagues.

    The film gives off an overriding romantic ambience to me as well (without being mushy like some later films) and I appreciate that aspect. I find Spectre using Bond's weakness against him by luring him in with an attractive woman to be tantalizing. The fact that he knows it's a trap and still takes the bait further adds to that element. Tatianna certainly has feelings for Bond, and her reactions after he finds out about her role on the train are moving.

    Yes, there is no main villain's lair, but instead we have a thrilling finale in Venice, with Klebb being forced to come to town to finish the job that her minions had botched. Tatianna's conflict at this point is interesting to watch, as she must quickly weigh her loyalty to Mother Russia vs. her affection for James. Either choice will have significant consequence for her. Additionally, in place of a lair we have some terrific sets and locations including the incredibly atmospheric and romantic Orient Express at night. How can one complain about that! There's also the chilling sequence inside the Hagia Sophia, the Basilica Cistern sequence (standing in for the basement under the embassy), and of course the ride on the Bosphorous Ferry. On top of all of that, we have one of the top two or three fights in any of the 24 films when Bond squares off against Grant in the confined space of the train cabin. That whole sequence still gives me the chills to this day, it's so well done. That's worth the price of any number of traditional machine gun shootouts imho.

    So ultimately it's all the unique attributes which you noted which make FRWL my #1 Bond film, and that's before we even discuss Sean Connery's killer performance, which I rank as one of the top two or three interpretations in a Bond film in the last 50+ years.

    In a strange way, and somewhat controversially perhaps, that's one of the reasons I like SF quite a lot too. It took the rulebook and threw it out the window, shaking up the series for the 50th anniversary. There are similarly suspenseful aspects in that film, and it's also suitably different from the rest. I have that ranked around the 9 mark.

    Agree with everything about FRWL! The only thing I'll like to add (which is probably a bit controversial as well), is that the Orient Express scenes outdo the big villain's lair scenes from other Bond films any day of the week! The confined space only add to the drama and suspense of the scenes.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    For me OHMSS just has everything i want from a Bond movie. Never fails to entertain me. As seen from posts here peoples views of Bond movies change over the years and depending on moods, films you expect to be great can be not as good at certain viewings. OHMSS never falls into that category for me . Love FRWL but certain viewings i found it draggy (its my favourite Fleming novel) and much as i like Klebb, i find her a bit cartoony (i always smile when she puts on those glasses of hers).
    Grant, though is one of the best villains. Shaw is a superb actor and their fight scene is a cracker! Someone mentioned about doing something different which is all well and good. For me OHMSS took the traditional elements we are all familiar with and made them seem fresh and new. (A lot of this was down to Peter Hunt. Shame he never got to do another Bond film). Poor George is still getting a hard time, but the more times i see him in this the more i like. He's certainly a more convincing Bond than a certain Mr. Brosnan!!

    Well said.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    For me OHMSS just has everything i want from a Bond movie. Never fails to entertain me. As seen from posts here peoples views of Bond movies change over the years and depending on moods, films you expect to be great can be not as good at certain viewings. OHMSS never falls into that category for me . Love FRWL but certain viewings i found it draggy (its my favourite Fleming novel) and much as i like Klebb, i find her a bit cartoony (i always smile when she puts on those glasses of hers).
    Grant, though is one of the best villains. Shaw is a superb actor and their fight scene is a cracker! Someone mentioned about doing something different which is all well and good. For me OHMSS took the traditional elements we are all familiar with and made them seem fresh and new. (A lot of this was down to Peter Hunt. Shame he never got to do another Bond film). Poor George is still getting a hard time, but the more times i see him in this the more i like. He's certainly a more convincing Bond than a certain Mr. Brosnan!!

    To be honest I find Irma Bunt more "cartoony" than Klebb sometimes. Klebb at least shows a bit of fear when faced with potential death from Blofeld near the end. She's utterly ruthless but also shows some vulnerability when she sees Kronsteen killed in front of her. Not to mention the smile to herself when she thinks she's got Bond cornered (you can feel her satisisfaction after all the efforts she has made throughout the mission). She's like one of those horrible yappy small dogs that clings to whatever it seeks. Bunt is good but there's not really a lot to her other than being an obvious matron-style villain. In a Carry On film she would be played by Hatti Jacques. Also, she really camps up the line "it has been so nice...to cure you".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I personally prefer FRWL for reasons previously noted, but I can't really fault OHMSS. Again, it's the uniqueness of this particular entry, in combination with the reasonably flawless execution, which continue to move it up my rankings. A few years back it wasn't in the top 10. Now it's cracking the top 5. It's a very atmospheric and beautifully lensed entry. I really like how Hunt keeps the camera back so we see perspective in most of the scenes. It adds to the feeling of scale. Gilbert does that well too. Visual context is important, and I rarely see it these days.

    Lazenby was an excellent choice for the film as told. While I'm sure Connery could have done a great job, I'm glad he didn't have a chance. As a result I can still view his amazing resume of Bond films and imagine him as one of only two cool unflappable Bonds (with the other being Moore). I've always believed that these personal stories are better told with a one time actor, because we can then absorb the narrative and emotional dynamic without prior baggage. So I'm happy Laz packed it in after this one.

    The parts I don't like all that much in the film are the whole Hilly routine because the film slows down a bit at that point. The dining scene is a bit cheesy and dated too. After Bond is apprehended it really picks up all the way to the end.

    Great film.
  • Posts: 11,189
    My gut feeling with Laz after watching the film again: he does a lot right, particularly in the later scenes. But he does have some rather bad line deliveries at times.

    A lot of his lines also sound like they have been re dubbed (and I'm not talking about the Sir Hiliary Bray section).

    Physically though he's great - probably one of the best - and that somewhat makes up for his stiffness.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The 80s and 90s films are dated in a bad way, but the 60s and 70s films are dated in a good way. It has to do with the esthetic senses of the times.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    My gut feeling with Laz after watching the film again: he does a lot right, particularly in the later scenes. But he does have some rather bad line deliveries at times.

    A lot of his lines also sound like they have been re dubbed (and I'm not talking about the Sir Hiliary Bray section).

    Physically though he's great - probably one of the best - and that somewhat makes up for his stiffness.
    I can't disagree with what you've said. He is a bit bland, but in a way that helps the performance for me. He's a blank slate, and it's everything around him which elevates the film, including the score, cinematography, locations and supporting characters. There are some Bond films that benefit from a more sterile Bond. GE & SF do that for me too (meaning everything around Bond is why I like those films and the Bond actor doesn't screw anything up, which actually helps the film).
    The 80s and 90s films are dated in a bad way, but the 60s and 70s films are dated in a good way. It has to do with the esthetic senses of the times.
    I very much agree.
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