No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • Posts: 372
    boldfinger wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    James Bond should always be a white male. Period end of story. I know there are some SJWs that would love Bond to be female

    White? Why in the world should that be a criterium?
    Because everything else would feel like an awkward political statement.

    What kind of awkward statement? That a male actor can play a male character? In retrospect, everyone got over M being played by a woman, Moneypenny being black and Bond himself being played by a tiny, blond man with protruding ears. I wish people would just chill and stop looking for things to be offended about.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 2,919
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    You act like it was entirely McClory's fault. You've conveniently left out the part where Fleming took material from screenplays co-written by two people he never had any intention of crediting. He arrogantly tried to cut them out of their share, and he paid the price for it.

    It's more likely that he realized McClory's chances of getting a Bond film made weren't good and so decided to repurpose elements from screenplay material that was owned by the project's backer Ivar Bryce (or so he thought, mistakenly). His legal carelessness is what cost him. But McClory had no excuse for wasting his life and everyone's time in a never-ending series of lawsuits designed to appropriate a film franchise whose success owed little to him. And in the ultimate irony, when he did get a chance to make a Bond film it owed more to Fleming's novel than the McClory/Whittingham screenplays.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Revelator wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    You act like it was entirely McClory's fault. You've conveniently left out the part where Fleming took material from screenplays co-written by two people he never had any intention of crediting. He arrogantly tried to cut them out of their share, and he paid the price for it.

    It's more likely that he realized McClory's chances of getting a Bond film made weren't good and so decided to repurpose elements from screenplay material that was owned by the project's backer Ivar Bryce (or so he thought, mistakenly). His legal carelessness is what cost him. But McClory had no excuse for wasting his life and everyone's time in a never-ending series of lawsuits designed to appropriate a film franchise whose success owed little to him. And in the ultimate irony, when he did get a chance to make a Bond film it owed more to Fleming's novel than the McClory/Whittingham screenplays.

    Well said, Sir.

    Fleming was certainly careless and surprisingly naive, but we were in the infancy of these sorts of series. Copyright and IP was nowhere near as litigiously protected as it is these days. Back then, a few ‘mates’ kicking around ideas was just that. It was only when McClory saw C&H pull off what he couldn’t, and to incredible effect, that he wanted a piece.

    I can recognise McClory’s gripe, but I believe he was adequately compensated with his Producer role on TB. Beyond that there was nothing to say he couldn’t ‘do a Harry’ and launch an alternative series. It’s quite evident he simply didn’t have the talent and died a bitter and twisted old man.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    McClory was clearly a pain to Fleming and Eon but c'mon, Fleming was hardly a downy innocent.

    It's clear he knew what he was doing when he wrote TB, hence the (court-ordered) attribution in the later prints of the novel.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    echo wrote: »
    McClory was clearly a pain to Fleming and Eon but c'mon, Fleming was hardly a downy innocent.

    It's clear he knew what he was doing when he wrote TB, hence the (court-ordered) attribution in the later prints of the novel.

    I don’t think anyone is saying Fleming is innocent, but I don’t think what he did was as calculated as your post infers.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    All I am saying is:

    We all love the Bond character (the novels, the films, etc.) and the vast majority of that goodwill is rightly due to Fleming and Eon. Yet because of that goodwill, I think we sometimes forget that Fleming did something wrong when it came to TB.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    echo wrote: »
    All I am saying is:

    We all love the Bond character (the novels, the films, etc.) and the vast majority of that goodwill is rightly due to Fleming and Eon. Yet because of that goodwill, I think we sometimes forget that Fleming did something wrong when it came to TB.

    I agree. On the flip, McClory became a monster.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    RC7 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    McClory was clearly a pain to Fleming and Eon but c'mon, Fleming was hardly a downy innocent.

    It's clear he knew what he was doing when he wrote TB, hence the (court-ordered) attribution in the later prints of the novel.

    I don’t think anyone is saying Fleming is innocent, but I don’t think what he did was as calculated as your post infers.

    That would make him a very naive person, if he was really surprised/shocked, when McClory sued him.
  • Goldeneye0094Goldeneye0094 Conyers, GA
    Posts: 464
    What kind of electronic product placement should we expect in bond 25 now that Sony is out of the picture?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    McClory was clearly a pain to Fleming and Eon but c'mon, Fleming was hardly a downy innocent.

    It's clear he knew what he was doing when he wrote TB, hence the (court-ordered) attribution in the later prints of the novel.

    I don’t think anyone is saying Fleming is innocent, but I don’t think what he did was as calculated as your post infers.

    That would make him a very naive person, if he was really surprised/shocked, when McClory sued him.

    It’s a complex scenario. At the end of the day Bond was Fleming’s IP. In 2018 McClory would have been served a contract outlining the terms. I suspect Fleming naively assumed no one would even entertain the idea of claiming ownership over his creation. I can understand that. For all his intellect and creativity he wasn’t a business minded bloke. McClory on the other hand was shrewd.
  • Posts: 628
    Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that McClory's and Whittingham's names are not on the recent Thomas & Mercer edition of the novel?

    Wonder what that's all about.

  • Red_SnowRed_Snow Australia
    Posts: 2,543
    Universal’s International Chief Duncan Clark on Bond, Grinch, Dolittle, Pokemon
    https://variety.com/2018/film/global/universal-international-bond-grinch-dolittle-pokemon-1202848020/

    As for the recent addition to Universal’s international slate of EON/MGM’s Bond 25, which Danny Boyle will direct, Clark says: “This is one of the classic franchises of all time. Any studio would want to have it on their slate. Personally, I am a James Bond fan. It is an iconic brand.”
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 5,767
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Taken a huge sum of money from Fleming and left the franchise alone, acknowledging that I´m neither a film producer nor a mob boss powerful enough to take up a fight against Eon.

    And not exercised your right to produce a remake ten years later?

    Bullsh*t.

    In any case, it turns out that McClory was powerful enough to fight EON: By working with a relentless business partner (Jack Schwartzman), he managed to get Connery back and NSNA into theaters. There's nothing the fans can do to change that, despite their bleatings that the movie be stricken from existence.
    As can be clearly seen from the final act of NSNA, McClory couldn´t really produce the film because he had to appear in court every day, so I don´t give much for the power he had. I like NSNA at least in part quite a lot, but there are some parts, not least the action finale, that very obviously suffer from lack of production, and it is laid open by a lot of people involved that McClory had to appear in court literally every day they shot.
    No, I wouldn´t exercise my right to produce a remake ten years later if I knew I´d had to fight a huge company willing and most of all able to stop me. No bs at all. What did it earn McClory beside feeding his ego? Money perhaps, but come on, he must have got a huge chunk of money even without the film rights. I find my physical and mental health more important to me than being a millionaire.

  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    McClory brought the Bahamas and the underwater idea and Whittingham obviously good story elements. But the true meat of Thunderball is Fleming. He should have credited them ...too bad he had to go through this and ultimately cost him his life.

    It is good that in the end they found a way to produce Thunderball as part of the official series. And since I like that movie a lot, I am happy the film turned out what it was and no rival film in NANA-quality (even I like Connery and Brandauer in it). Everything that came after that agreement in 1965 was a shame and McClory just couldn‘t get enough. He became a wealthy man and based on everything I saw and read his input was little besides the location and scuba diving thing. He made a fortune out of that, betrayed Whittingham and all that. Just a shame.
  • Posts: 5,767
    boldfinger wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    James Bond should always be a white male. Period end of story. I know there are some SJWs that would love Bond to be female

    White? Why in the world should that be a criterium?
    Because everything else would feel like an awkward political statement.

    What kind of awkward statement? That a male actor can play a male character? In retrospect, everyone got over M being played by a woman, Moneypenny being black and Bond himself being played by a tiny, blond man with protruding ears. I wish people would just chill and stop looking for things to be offended about.
    It´s not at all about being offended. Noone talked about M being female Prior to GE, it just happened. The same goes for MP. But there has been so much nonsensical talk about a black, female, gay, or whatever Bond, that it would be impossible to believe that the choice of a non-caucasian Bond would be because he is such a good actor or performer.
    Unless it is Denzel Washington.

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,619
    What kind of electronic product placement should we expect in bond 25 now that Sony is out of the picture?
    As a prop collector who has quite a few of those Sony products, that is something I'm quite curious to know, too. What brand of phone will Bond possess, if he is issued one at all? We know Philips had a long lasting relationship with Bond- their products featured as far back as DAF (or perhaps even earlier?) up until LTK IIRC, and them adding their logos to custom props for the Dalton films. It would be cool to see that kind of close collaboration moving forward.

    Also, Bond had the Xperia in SP, but Moneypenny's gift phone was a Samsung. What was the deal with that? Why not also give MP a Sony branded phone, or even the 'Made for Bond' Z5 Harris promoted for the film?
  • Posts: 2,919
    That would make him a very naive person, if he was really surprised/shocked, when McClory sued him.

    Fleming was under the assumption that Ivar Bryce owned all rights to the scripts, and since he and Bryce were friends he didn't see the danger. When Bryce settled in court, Fleming was upset with his old friend. Ann was even more upset and wrote "Dedicated to Ivar Bryce - the man who betrayed Ian in the Thunderball case" in one of Ian's manuscripts.
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I like NSNA at least in part quite a lot, but there are some parts, not least the action finale, that very obviously suffer from lack of production...No, I wouldn't exercise my right to produce a remake ten years later if I knew I'd had to fight a huge company willing and most of all able to stop me...What did it earn McClory beside feeding his ego? Money perhaps, but come on, he must have got a huge chunk of money even without the film rights. I find my physical and mental health more important to me than being a millionaire.

    I also like NSNA (probably more than most people on this board!) and the film was practically a comeuppance for McClory--he was pushed out of the creative process by Schwartzman and didn't get to either direct or script it. The Bond movie McClory had prepared beforehand, Warhead, read more like a parody of the EON Bond films than a film based on the Whittingham scripts (which would have made a terrible film, judging from their summaries), and it was rightfully struck down in court. And then McClory wasted the rest of his life announcing cockamamie future projects (Warhead starring Timothy Dalton, coming to theaters in 1999!) before, in the ultimate display of hubris, deciding to sue Broccoli out of Bond altogether. He lost big time and after his death his heirs disposed of the rest of his Bond rights. What a waste! A real artist would have used the money from the 1965 film and moved on to projects of his own. Instead he gave the world an unnecessary TB remake and dozens of failed lawsuits.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Revelator wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    You act like it was entirely McClory's fault. You've conveniently left out the part where Fleming took material from screenplays co-written by two people he never had any intention of crediting. He arrogantly tried to cut them out of their share, and he paid the price for it.

    It's more likely that he realized McClory's chances of getting a Bond film made weren't good and so decided to repurpose elements from screenplay material that was owned by the project's backer Ivar Bryce (or so he thought, mistakenly). His legal carelessness is what cost him. But McClory had no excuse for wasting his life and everyone's time in a never-ending series of lawsuits designed to appropriate a film franchise whose success owed little to him. And in the ultimate irony, when he did get a chance to make a Bond film it owed more to Fleming's novel than the McClory/Whittingham screenplays.

    Not to mention McClory even gave Blofeld a white cat, something which had first appeared in EON's movies and not McClory's screenplays.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 628
    Revelator wrote: »
    And then McClory wasted the rest of his life announcing cockamamie future projects (Warhead starring Timothy Dalton, coming to theaters in 1999!)

    One of these days someone should ask Dalton about Warhead 2000. I wonder if McClory buttered him up at a party, and Dalton gave the guy a half-assed agreement to do the movie.

    I remember getting excited when it was announced. At that point I so thoroughly despised the Brosnan films, I wanted to see McClory try to torpedo the official series. And starring Dalton, my favorite Bond? Even better!
  • Posts: 2,919
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    One of these days someone should ask Dalton about Warhead 2000. I wonder if McClory buttered him up at a party, and Dalton gave the guy a half-assed agreement to do the movie.

    We know Dalton was (and is) a friend of the Broccolis, so I have my doubts he would have entertained any thought of starring in a rival series. My guess is that McClory somehow got the wrong message from an agent, or even straight-up lied to attract investors or attention.
  • Goldeneye0094Goldeneye0094 Conyers, GA
    Posts: 464
    Look Kevin McClory was a decades long thorn in eon's side that ended in 2013 now let's move on to bond 25 which leads me to wonder if SPECTRE will still have a role in boyle's bond 25
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,152
    After the haphazard way in which Spectre have been shoe horned into the Craig era, I'd hope that Boyle goes for a stand alone entry.
    I do enjoy SP, but Blofeld, Quantum and Spectre as an organisation have been handled terribly. I can't see anyway to continue with that story.
  • Posts: 11,425
    RC7 wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    You act like it was entirely McClory's fault. You've conveniently left out the part where Fleming took material from screenplays co-written by two people he never had any intention of crediting. He arrogantly tried to cut them out of their share, and he paid the price for it.

    It's more likely that he realized McClory's chances of getting a Bond film made weren't good and so decided to repurpose elements from screenplay material that was owned by the project's backer Ivar Bryce (or so he thought, mistakenly). His legal carelessness is what cost him. But McClory had no excuse for wasting his life and everyone's time in a never-ending series of lawsuits designed to appropriate a film franchise whose success owed little to him. And in the ultimate irony, when he did get a chance to make a Bond film it owed more to Fleming's novel than the McClory/Whittingham screenplays.

    Well said, Sir.

    Fleming was certainly careless and surprisingly naive, but we were in the infancy of these sorts of series. Copyright and IP was nowhere near as litigiously protected as it is these days. Back then, a few ‘mates’ kicking around ideas was just that. It was only when McClory saw C&H pull off what he couldn’t, and to incredible effect, that he wanted a piece.

    I can recognise McClory’s gripe, but I believe he was adequately compensated with his Producer role on TB. Beyond that there was nothing to say he couldn’t ‘do a Harry’ and launch an alternative series. It’s quite evident he simply didn’t have the talent and died a bitter and twisted old man.

    And TB is my least favourite Connery entry.... a shame it led to such a mess.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,152
    Let's leave the McClory discussion for a different thread. It has no bearing on Bond 25 thank goodness.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,413
    Benny wrote: »
    Let's leave the McClory discussion for a different thread. It has no bearing on Bond 25 thank goodness.

    I only mentioned McClory offhand, didn't intend for it to derail everything for 2 days.

    I think it has something to do the not getting any official word from EON, discussions sprout from the anticipation and nerves.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,985
    That's exactly why we'll hopefully do things differently come Bond 26. A Production Diary isn't needed until production is actually ready to ramp up.
  • TuxedoTuxedo Europe
    Posts: 261
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    That's exactly why we'll hopefully do things differently come Bond 26. A Production Diary isn't needed until production is actually ready to ramp up.

    Words of wisdom on page 1594
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    That's exactly why we'll hopefully do things differently come Bond 26. A Production Diary isn't needed until production is actually ready to ramp up.

    But there will inevitably be a thread where Bond 26 is discussed. So the change will be in name only.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,985
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    That's exactly why we'll hopefully do things differently come Bond 26. A Production Diary isn't needed until production is actually ready to ramp up.

    But there will inevitably be a thread where Bond 26 is discussed. So the change will be in name only.

    The idea I've had for months is a 'Bond 26 Anything Goes' Thread, so we can avoid the possibility of being off-topic as we discuss our wants and hopes, rumors, etc. Then the Production Thread gets opened around the time the press conference is set to begin, or even when the new actor is announced. I don't see a reason why it can't be done that way.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    Yes, that's a very good idea.
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