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  • @BeatlesSansEarmuffs As far as Lincoln and his owning slaves I would recommend reading the comments of his wife and son, as well as a few noted scholars on his life rather than general information found on the internet. There is a great deal of material written by those who knew him at the time of his life. Many of the scholarly works on him were written by people who revere him as a person and a President despite his human failings, and many of those who have written about him are noted and respected historians. I’m pretty sure that you know what a library is, and so can probably do your own research, if knowledge on the topic really interests you. They actually still keep books, and well written books in libraries, and most librarians will be excited, I’m willing to guess, to help you with your research. As has often been said, there is legend and then there is the factual documentation of history.
    Since I don’t watch Fox News I’ve actually never heard Kelly speak, but I’ve often heard racially improper remarks made by many noted and well know people (none of them from any obvious minority group, or perhaps I should say more to the point, all of them were “White”) so I wouldn’t be surprised that she has said other things that were inappropriate regarding Blacks or any other racial or social group. Whether what she said was deliberate or simply from a poor understanding of racial sensitivity, I’m not going to try and guess. It’s taken the country some time to become conscious of how we use language not to mention generally sub-conscious actions toward people of color or different racial and social or religious origins.
    If you choose to look Lincoln up at a library, I would suggest getting a large table all to yourself, because there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books on him, but it is all fascinating reading, I can assure you. Please don’t ask me for references, I think a man should always do his own work, especially when seeking the truth of something.


  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,339
    @CommanderRoss, a few months ago, in August to be exact I sat in the back garden with a friend and his father. My friends’ father is 99 years old and frail but with amazing endurance. They are Dutch. That 99 year old man spent 2 years hiding from the Nazis, before he was able to escape from the Netherlands and make it to America. I’ve known him for ten years and heard his story several times. That afternoon at lunch I asked him what he thought of our current President. He chuckled, and said, “Trump is a fool. People say he’s a Nazi, but (looking me in the eye and saying my name he said), let me tell you both something. I know the Nazis’, I have been as close to them as I am looking at you right now. Trump’s a () fool, but he isn’t a Nazi.” That old mans’ story is one of tremendous hardship and amazing triumph, and at 99 his mind is incredibly sharp. His son by the way is the one who recommended many years ago that I read The Nightmare Years. I’ve no doubt that those were horrible times to live through. I’ve heard it first hand from someone who endured it. As to your other question, America does quite well actually. A recent former President was of African American heritage. Women and minorities abound in leadership positions all around the country. Trump just presented the Nations’ highest Military Honor to an African American. Trump was born and raised in a part of the country where bigotry runs high and the same for the industry he worked in. His rhetoric reflects that, but yes America is still a country with great freedoms and a great future, regardless of the person in the oval office. I would be willing to bet that any number of white Americans on this forum have practiced bigotry either deliberately or inadvertently at some time in their lives. A close friend of mine who is black (close enough that I was best man at his wedding and present in his place when his first child was born because he was working overseas and delayed in getting back) once said to me, “I’d rather sit down with a man who tells me up front that he’s a bigot, than a guy who says all the right and nice things, but is just a wolf in sheep’s clothing, who lets it all hang out at the bar later with his buddies.

    I have been to the Netherlands several times, people tell me it’s much nicer that what I’ve seen, I have also been to South Africa and seen that too. When the American Government falls the Constitution burns, and Trump becomes Dictator in Chief, send a text will you, I might have overslept that day.

    The Nazi's this old Dutchman had encountered were very efficient Germans. Trump can't hold a candle to them I agree. Germans are a very efficient people in anything they do, so when they turn dark they end up very dark indeed. Trump I'd more likely compare to Mussolini. He sort of invented fascism, but as Italians are anything but efficient he never managed to get far, until the Germans turned up. But don't be mistaken by the effect he had on Italy. Still, due to his agressive and devicive behaviour many people died.

    You see a lot of good in the country and that's fine, I see at the same time structural flaws in your democracy that I find very worrysome and remind me of countries that fell to dictatorships (like Italy under Mussolini) before. The chism between two (basically the only two ) major political movements is getting bigger. Facts don't seem to matter anymore. The press are also devided in two sides and are more inclined to put oil on the fire than to tone down and try to see the other side. The most important person that could and should do so does so only for show, and undermines his own statements the very same day blaming the other side.

    you may have had an 'african american' president (funny how when you've only got 50% AA blood you are AA, or even 20%, you're never 'white' or 'caucasian') but in every news item I'm told which race someone is. Take for instance the shooting of one guy in his own apartment by a cop coming home and, as the story goes, got the floors mixed up. As you first shoot in the US and ask questions later she shot the man (in the dark) that she thought was in her apartment. Turned out to be his though, and all news channels, from the start, told me he was a black man and she a white woman. Is it relevant? It shouldn't be in the original story, but it was even in the headlines like that. For me it's a sign the country is increadably racist. For the record, over here we have quite enough people from different backgrounds, of which i.e. a large group from the Antilles and Surinam with African roots (yes, same cause), but somehow media don't find it that important to tell.

    Above all, you have people dying from deseases that you don't need to die from because they can't pay the medical bills. You're the only western country to have this. Your education is expensive and failing, your population has the lowest life expectancy of any western country at birth. All in all, you're sliding down instead of making America great again. And if you've seen what's happening at the sotck markets right now, you see the first results of Trump's policies. Instead of further pushing the economy along he's slowing it down, with many companies citing the trade war as cause for lower results.

    https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-look-like-a-developed-country/

    But you're so self obsessed as a nation that you still think you're the best, even noting that so many want to enter your country. Well , first look at where they come from. People from ecuador or venezuela are not fleeing towards the US as much as away from home, many of them preferring Brazil over the US.

    I'm a historian and I prefer to look at the fundamental changes. Trump is a result of a very worrysome failure of your democracy, showing once and for all a district voting system doesn't do what it's supposed to do. At the same time it also shows that without checks a democracy can be bought (standard practice in the US, it's even part of the prognoses of elections).

    On the basis of that I can't really join in your optimism.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    If you choose to look Lincoln up at a library, I would suggest getting a large table all to yourself, because there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books on him, but it is all fascinating reading, I can assure you. Please don’t ask me for references, I think a man should always do his own work, especially when seeking the truth of something.
    "It is all"? So, there are no bad books on him? Or 'just okay' ones? And have you read these 'hundreds'? But you won't recommend one you read.
    Thanks for the laugh of my day, sir. ;)
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    If you choose to look Lincoln up at a library, I would suggest getting a large table all to yourself, because there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books on him, but it is all fascinating reading, I can assure you. Please don’t ask me for references, I think a man should always do his own work, especially when seeking the truth of something.
    "It is all"? So, there are no bad books on him? Or 'just okay' ones? And have you read these 'hundreds'? But you won't recommend one you read.
    Thanks for the laugh of my day, sir. ;)

    A nicely done evasion of the question is still an evasion of the question.
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 3,566

    I'm a historian and I prefer to look at the fundamental changes. Trump is a result of a very worrysome failure of your democracy, showing once and for all a district voting system doesn't do what it's supposed to do. At the same time it also shows that without checks a democracy can be bought (standard practice in the US, it's even part of the prognoses of elections).

    On the basis of that I can't really join in your optimism.

    I have no disagreement with much of what you say, @CommanderRoss ... but I still prefer to hold onto my optimism. Let's see how these mid-term elections go, despite the transparent vote suppression occurring in some places, shall we? I really do believe that the majority of people will see this as a referendum on Trump's policies and will reject him in substantial numbers.

    One point I'd like to make about the "failure of (our) democracy" -- I see it as a failure of the electoral college, which really does need to be abolished. The founding fathers weren't absolute believers in the collective wisdom of the people -- that's why they built so many checks & balances into the system. They were particularly concerned about the possibility of a populist despot fooling the collective majority and winning the popular vote to be installed as president. Hence, the electoral college: the elite of each region would come together to make the final decision. In this case, the elite proved even gullible than the masses: while Clinton won the popular vote by about 3 million, the electoral college chose to follow Party preference rather than working for the good of the country.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,339

    I'm a historian and I prefer to look at the fundamental changes. Trump is a result of a very worrysome failure of your democracy, showing once and for all a district voting system doesn't do what it's supposed to do. At the same time it also shows that without checks a democracy can be bought (standard practice in the US, it's even part of the prognoses of elections).

    On the basis of that I can't really join in your optimism.

    I have no disagreement with much of what you say, @CommanderRoss ... but I still prefer to hold onto my optimism. Let's see how these mid-term elections go, despite the transparent vote suppression occurring in some places, shall we? I really do believe that the majority of people will see this as a referendum on Trump's policies and will reject him in substantial numbers.

    One point I'd like to make about the "failure of (our) democracy" -- I see it as a failure of the electoral college, which really does need to be abolished. The founding fathers weren't absolute believers in the collective wisdom of the people -- that's why they built so many checks & balances into the system. They were particularly concerned about the possibility of a populist despot fooling the collective majority and winning the popular vote to be installed as president. Hence, the electoral college: the elite of each region would come together to make the final decision. In this case, the elite proved even gullible than the masses: while Clinton won the popular vote by about 3 million, the electoral college chose to follow Party preference rather than working for the good of the country.

    Oh I'm not here to crunch any optimism, I'm merely observing. I think the founding father were as fallible as any other man. In Europe we've had the advancing insights of the American constitution and many of our constitutions are a more advanced version of it as a result of the French revolution, and after that the revolutions of 1848.

    IIRC it was Plato even who got dissapointed in the elite, as he thought they would be the best leaders of a city state. They turned out not to be. The elite are more often then not even more corrupt and easy to influence ,as they have positions to lose.

    The presidential system has the same problem: too much power in the hands of one man. A parliamentary system is thus better (it might still have ap president ,see Germany, but the power lies with it's ministers).

    New Zealand made the switch from a two-party to Multi-party system. As it turns out the latter is better as extremeties are kept in check.

    I wish you all the best of luck changing the country to a fairer, less corrupt system. The world would be a better place because of it, no matter if the government would lean left or right.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If you choose to look Lincoln up at a library, I would suggest getting a large table all to yourself, because there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books on him, but it is all fascinating reading, I can assure you. Please don’t ask me for references, I think a man should always do his own work, especially when seeking the truth of something.
    "It is all"? So, there are no bad books on him? Or 'just okay' ones? And have you read these 'hundreds'? But you won't recommend one you read.
    Thanks for the laugh of my day, sir. ;)

    A nicely done evasion of the question is still an evasion of the question.

    I must have missed the question. What was it?
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 3,566
    The question was, "Did Abraham Lincoln own slaves?" My belief is that he did not, and I have produced a link stating that the assertion that he did is an alt-right falsehood intended to smear the Great Emancipator. @Legionnaire's position is that I just need to educate myself better & should read all the books in the library on Lincoln where I will surely find the information he has based his claim on. That's not the way it works, Leggy old boy. You're the one making the questionable assertion -- the burden of proof is on you, not on me. At this point in time I find the notion of "Abraham Lincoln, Slave-Owner" just about as believable as I do the concept of "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    At this point in time I find the notion of "Abraham Lincoln, Slave-Owner" just about as believable as I do the concept of "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter."
    Bwahahahahahahaha!!!

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Since "twilight zone" has been mentioned sometimes on this thread, here is this, which I like. Tweeted by Rod Serling's daughter ~
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2018 Posts: 12,480
    So sorry to report this, airliner crashed.
    Lion Air flight
  • I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    They turn to fascism to get fed, ready to leave freedom and humanity at the door.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,086
    I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.
    I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.

    I'm sure ANTIFA are getting their masks and knuckleduster's ready as we speak. As soon as they've tidied their bedrooms like their mum's have asked of course.... :))
  • I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.
    I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.

    I'm sure ANTIFA are getting their masks and knuckleduster's ready as we speak. As soon as they've tidied their bedrooms like their mum's have asked of course.... :))

    And I am equally sure that you're sitting safe inside your home with a bowl of candy, waiting for the masked things-that-go-bump-in the-night to come out playing trick or treat. Be nice to the children, please -- the rest of us are trying to deal with pipe-bombers and synagogue shooters and real world dangers being egged on by our Swamp Creature-in-Chief.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,339
    I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.
    I'm sorry to hear about the airline crash. Even more sorry to hear about Brazil's new president. The rising tide of fascism in various parts of the world will need to be resisted on an international level, either sooner or later. We did it before, and if it becomes necessary, we can do it again. Regardless of what some may have you think, there are NO "very fine people" on that side.

    I'm sure ANTIFA are getting their masks and knuckleduster's ready as we speak. As soon as they've tidied their bedrooms like their mum's have asked of course.... :))

    Bit of an odd comment on your side. First, please quote only the part you're referring to, as Antifa ha little to do with airline crashes and as this is a world wie forum chances are members just lost family there. and second, even if it's about Brazil, you should be aware that political violence is a big thing there. The newly chosen president was almost stabbed to death not even two months ago.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    They turn to fascism to get fed, ready to leave freedom and humanity at the door.

    In this case it was the corruption in the people's party that made people vote 'the other guy'.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    In this case it was the corruption in the people's party that made people vote 'the other guy'.

    Sounds familiar.... I still feel the Bern.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Anyway ... Brazil did have corruption and scandals in their recent govt and have now elected someone of extreme far right. Understandable they wanted a change ... but this is truly extreme, in a negative way, highly intolerant.

    Below is partial from this article: (bolding is mine, not in the article)
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/29/world/americas/jair-bolsonaro-brazil-profile.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur

    In 1993, he delivered a fiery speech before the lower house of Congress urging its demise, calling the emerging version of democracy in Brazil a lost cause.

    “I am in favor of a dictatorship,” Mr. Bolsonaro thundered. “We will never resolve serious national problems with this irresponsible democracy.”

    He said people across the country were pining for the return of the military. “They ask, ‘When are you coming back?’”
    ***

    Mr. Bolsonaro’s conservative views on issues like gay rights and abortion have endeared him to some in Brazil’s evangelical caucus, which has grown steadily in recent years.

    But he mainly became known for his angry outbursts, perhaps most notably in 2003, when he shoved a leftist colleague, Maria do Rosário Nunes, on camera after telling her she was not worthy of being raped.

    Now Ms. Nunes, a former human rights minister, said she fears that Mr. Bolsonaro — who has threatened to banish political opponents and make it easier for the police to kill suspected criminals — will be a ruthless leader.

    “He is incapable of producing a consensus, an agreement,” she said. “There is no dialogue with him.”
    ***

    “Elections won’t change anything in this country,” he said during one of his seven terms in Congress. “Unfortunately, it will only change the day that we break out in civil war here and do the job that the military regime didn’t do, killing 30,000. If some innocent people die, that’s fine. In every war, innocent people die. I will even be happy if I die as long as 30,000 go.”

    Far from disqualifying him, his incendiary remarks over the years and throughout the campaign made Mr. Bolsonaro appealing to millions of Brazilians. Many see in him the kind of disruptive, status quo-breaking potential that propelled President Trump’s victory in 2016.

    On Sunday, Mr. Bolsonaro said during his victory speech that his government would uphold the constitution and democratic principles.

    President Trump called on Sunday to congratulate him on his victory, following up with a tweet on Monday morning that said, “Had a very good conversation with the newly elected President of Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro, who won the race by a substantial margin. We agreed that Brazil and the United States will work closely together on Trade, Military and everything else!”
    ***
    Also:

  • Posts: 7,507
    chrisisall wrote: »
    In this case it was the corruption in the people's party that made people vote 'the other guy'.

    Sounds familiar.... I still feel the Bern.


    The capital of Switzerland?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    So as the mid term elections near, crazy and awful things will be ramped up.
    This is ... overreach of gigantic proportions that may have truly dire consequences.


    On a brighter note, Kanye has finally deserted Trump.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    He can change the 14th Amendment at a whim. Or, not.
    What a buffoon.
    King Marmalade Moron.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2018 Posts: 12,480
    He likes his Executive Orders, Chris. But at least Congress is pointing out to him that no, it cannot be done like that.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/us/politics/trump-birthright-citizenship.html

    From this article:
    The amendment means that any child born in the United States is considered a citizen. Amendments to the Constitution cannot be overridden by presidential action — they can be changed or undone only by overwhelming majorities in Congress or the states, with a two-thirds vote of both houses of Congress or through a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of state legislatures.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,339
    Sending armed military to a border to keep out a group of civillians a 1000 km away. Land of the brave?
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 3,566
    Sending armed military to a border to keep out a group of civillians a 1000 km away. Land of the brave?

    Courage comes in a wide variety of forms. The average American displays his or hers by simply going unconcerned through the day, despite knowing that a lunatic could leap out with an automatic weapon & take down a dozen or more civilians at any time.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2018 Posts: 12,480
    The timing of Trump's "pushing the envelope" currently is rather obvious, I think.
    ~ The Saudis caught in a cover up of a brutal torture and murder of a U.S. resident/journalist.
    ~ The midterms are days away.

    So yes, it is newsworthy that the president is trying to circumvent our Constitution and do away with citizenship by birthright (he cannot do it) and in addition to that he can keep ramping up the alarms and lies about the group of civilians walking slowly to the U.S. border, and miles away, to apply for asylum (which is legal for them to do it this way).

    But I think it is more than charging up his small base (because he has Fox News and other right wing people pushing that already on his behalf) - I do think he is doing this, and probably something else outrageous tomorrow, because the media will run it ahead of following up on the things that Trump wants us to forget about: his layers of corruption, the Mueller investigation proceeding. "Follow the money" is still so apt for this presidency.






    UPDATE as of Nov. 1st ...





  • Posts: 19,339

    LATEST

    Two people are believed to have been stabbed after a knifeman entered the Sony music HQ in west London.

    Armed police are in attendance at the building on Derry Street.

    Staff members fled in terror after the incident at around 11am today
    One onlooker said: “Large crowds of people began exiting the building’s front door at around 11 o clock.

    "Most were running, all towards Kensington Square Garden. Several were visibly panicked and some were screaming."

    The Met police helicopter was circling overhead.

    One Sony worker said he saw a man pinned to the floor in the canteen in the “aftermath” of the stabbing. There was “blood everywhere”, he added
    Scotland Yard said in a statement: "Police were called at approximately 1100hrs on Friday, 2 November to reports of an incident on Derry Street, W8.

    "Officers, including firearms officers, and London Ambulance Service are in attendance.

    "Evacuations have taken place as a precaution. Two people have suffered stab injuries – we await an update on their condition.

    "One person has been arrested. No evidence of any firearms involved in this incident. It is not being treated as terror related.

    "Officers remain on scene and the incident remains ongoing
    ."

    BBPfGva.img?h=533&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1204&y=463

    BBPfCbj.img?h=600&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,435
    barryt007 wrote: »
    LATEST

    Two people are believed to have been stabbed after a knifeman entered the Sony music HQ in west London.

    Armed police are in attendance at the building on Derry Street.

    Staff members fled in terror after the incident at around 11am today
    One onlooker said: “Large crowds of people began exiting the building’s front door at around 11 o clock.

    "Most were running, all towards Kensington Square Garden. Several were visibly panicked and some were screaming."

    The Met police helicopter was circling overhead.

    One Sony worker said he saw a man pinned to the floor in the canteen in the “aftermath” of the stabbing. There was “blood everywhere”, he added
    Scotland Yard said in a statement: "Police were called at approximately 1100hrs on Friday, 2 November to reports of an incident on Derry Street, W8.

    "Officers, including firearms officers, and London Ambulance Service are in attendance.

    "Evacuations have taken place as a precaution. Two people have suffered stab injuries – we await an update on their condition.

    "One person has been arrested. No evidence of any firearms involved in this incident. It is not being treated as terror related.

    "Officers remain on scene and the incident remains ongoing
    ."

    BBPfGva.img?h=533&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1204&y=463

    BBPfCbj.img?h=600&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

    What goes through people's minds, that's terrible.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2018 Posts: 12,480
    That is horrendous. Sony music HQ in London; I didn't catch a reference to Simon. Doesn't matter. I hope the two injured recover. I have to watch BBC news more closely the next few days.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited November 2018 Posts: 24,264
    Does anyone have any comments to make on what's going on in Pakistan at the moment? Following the acquittance of an imprisoned Christian woman by the supreme court, riots broke out three days ago with hordes of angry Islamic men--and I must stress "men"--gathering in the streets, screaming for blood. The woman was imprisoned eight years ago (!) because, get this, during a quarrel with Islamic women at a farm, she insulted the Holy Prophet.

    Insulted.

    I'd like that to sink in for a moment. She insulted a prophet and has since spent eight years in jail...

    But with the aid of a lawyer who's now fearing for his own life too, the woman was recently given back her freedom. Fundamentalist lynching mobs, however, demand the woman be hanged and her lawyer and the judges too.

    Because she has insulted a prophet.

    The woman has fleed the country. A politician speaking up against these "blasphemy laws" was assassinated not so long ago. You can read more about it here:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/opinion/pakistan-bibi-blasphemy-death-sentence.html

    If I'm not mistaken, similar blasphemy laws exist elsewhere too. Perhaps no death penalties are demanded, but what about that fine Stephen Fry was at some point going to have to pay for speaking up against God on Irish television?

    Blasphemy is what it is, but I find it incredible that in 2018, we still have blasphemy laws, both in politically restless as well as in more civilised parts of the world. This is utterly ridiculous, especially when, as can now be seen in Pakistan, devotees want to actually murder someone who has said unpleasant things about their prophet.

    If these prophets, gods, whatever, ... cannot defend themselves or lie awake at night because some of us have dared to "insult" them, they hardly qualify as superior beings in my opinion. If laws must be upheld to avoid blasphemy, with death penalties or even fines incorporated in them, we can add yet another reason to an already very long list for why there's something seriously wrong with several religions in this day and age.

    "Blasphemy laws:

    Restrict freedom of speech
    Infringe on the right to freedom of religion
    Often lead to human rights violations during enforcement
    Can incite mass violence
    Fail to promote religious harmony which is supposedly the intention"

    It would seem that in certain parts of the United States, I could actually be thrown in jail for denying that God exists. Whoa. And yet Belgium is called a "failed state"... I'm so glad the men in blue won't come for me when I'm informing my students that the universe didn't pop out of God's magic microwave oven some 6000 years ago. I suppose I won't ever be teaching science in America though.

    Or Pakistan, for that matter.
This discussion has been closed.