Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Very similar imo to Craig never being able to shake off CR,and all his other films being judged against it.

    Puts him in nearly an impossible situation.
    Precisely. These sort of films always have the biggest emotional impact on viewers and therefore they linger in the perception. Bond as a cinematic character has to be able to shake that off, but sometimes viewers can't let go.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    edited October 2018 Posts: 7,054
    bondjames wrote: »
    Looking at it another way, would a Connery OHMSS (close to end of his run) have changed our judgment and perceptions of his entire tenure?

    It likely would have changed them to some extent, yes. But I don't think it would've been that strong a change. If one film goes for a certain tone, and the next one goes for a different tone, I personally find myself adjusting rather quickly and forgetting about the previous one, as long as there is competence in capturing said tone. And I think the same holds true in reverse. For instance, when rewatching GF, I wouldn't have been thinking much about a Connery OHMSS. I might've been thinking about DN and FRWL but not the films yet to come. That is in fact why I've always thought it viable to drop the Blofeld storyline from Spectre for Bond 25 and just do something else.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2018 Posts: 23,883
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Looking at it another way, would a Connery OHMSS (close to end of his run) have changed our judgment and perceptions of his entire tenure?

    It likely would have changed them to some extent, yes. But I don't think it would've been that strong a change. If one film goes for a certain tone, and the next one goes for a different tone, I personally find myself adjusting rather quickly and forgetting about the previous one, as long as there is competence in capturing said tone. And I think the same holds true in reverse. For instance, when rewatching GF, I wouldn't have been thinking much about a Connery OHMSS. I might've been thinking about DN and FRWL but not the films yet to come. That is in fact why I've always thought it viable to drop the Blofeld storyline in Spectre and just do something else.
    I agree to a degree. I certainly don't feel myself thinking about tonal differences between any of the Bond films from the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s. They are all self contained to an extent (despite the overall Spectre theme in many of the Connery films), and so permit some flexibility in tone to suit a particular narrative or direction. However, if an OHMSS had been tacked on somewhere towards the end, I may have looked at the whole tenure differently, because of the 'continuity' or 'trajectory' aspect for Connery Bond as a character, in combination with the 'emotional hook' which can be so compelling.

    It works well on the written page, but I'm not so sure if it would necessarily work so well cinematically. Everything becomes linked then, even if it's not as obvious as how they did it for Craig.
  • Posts: 684
    Disagree about Connery not being able to pull off OHMSS. He was one of the geniuses of 60s Bond, and a very talented actor -- specifically I think a lot more of that talent is on display as Bond, possibly more than often thought. It's hard to imagine him in OHMSS only because of the nature of a few moments which run counter to the version of the character that we did get to know him as, the various sides of it which he was asked to provide through his six films. It's not that he couldn't provide the OHMSS side, just that we didn't see it. And I think it's the kind of thing that would only make sense once seen.

    Hunt said he could get a performance out of anyone. As an editor he thought it was just bits of film and tinkering and coercing until the moment was captured, and for all we know based on the evidence of OHMSS he was right. He got the performance he wanted out of Lazenby. Connery wouldn't have needed the same sort of coercing because of his experience, but it remains that if Hunt pulled it off with Lazenby he would've pulled the thing off with Connery. Again, I think it's just harder to conceive.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,599
    As much as I started to Love You Only Live Twice over the past few years, I could see why Connery was bored with the role. He wasn't given much to work with and that's why I would love to have seen him pull off the Bond in OHMSS
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Very similar imo to Craig never being able to shake off CR,and all his other films being judged against it.

    Puts him in nearly an impossible situation.

    @barryt007 Couldn't agree more.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Strog wrote: »
    Disagree about Connery not being able to pull off OHMSS. He was one of the geniuses of 60s Bond, and a very talented actor -- specifically I think a lot more of that talent is on display as Bond, possibly more than often thought. It's hard to imagine him in OHMSS only because of the nature of a few moments which run counter to the version of the character that we did get to know him as, the various sides of it which he was asked to provide through his six films. It's not that he couldn't provide the OHMSS side, just that we didn't see it. And I think it's the kind of thing that would only make sense once seen.

    Hunt said he could get a performance out of anyone. As an editor he thought it was just bits of film and tinkering and coercing until the moment was captured, and for all we know based on the evidence of OHMSS he was right. He got the performance he wanted out of Lazenby. Connery wouldn't have needed the same sort of coercing because of his experience, but it remains that if Hunt pulled it off with Lazenby he would've pulled the thing off with Connery. Again, I think it's just harder to conceive.

    @Strog It isn't that I don't think Connery could pull it off. More that it would probably be jarring to see him do so, given the way he carried his interpretation of Bond up until that point.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Thinking about it another way, do I think Connery as an actor could have been been able to pull of OHMSS as a 'one off', without the baggage/expectations of the other Bond films (and his memorable characterizations in them) to contend with?

    I think he could have, but I've never really seen him as vulnerable in anything, and like @Roadphill noted I think that is the quality which makes OHMSS work so well. He always seems so much in control and part of that could be his imposing screen and physical presence.
  • Posts: 12,514
    OHMSS just doesn't fit the James Bond that Connery had been playing the last five movies. It would have been interesting to see him have a more vulnerable, emotional turn, but I feel like it would feel a bit jarring given his previous Bond performances. I can't say for sure if Connery could have pulled it off or not, but in any case it wouldn't fit with his previous take on Bond. As things stand, I thought Lazenby did a great job and I wouldn't replace him with anyone else in OHMSS.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Agree with @bondjames and @FoxRox
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 16,204
    Regardless whether or not it was in line with the other Connery Bonds tone-wise, I don't doubt for a moment he would have been amazing in OHMSS.
    As much as I love George, and feel he did a great job under the circumstances, he was very much a novice actor learning his ropes on that film. Connery had years of acting experience under his belt by the time he got DR NO. He knew his craft. I think Connery's display of emotions would have been subtle, never indicated yet would have quite an impact.
    I personally feel Connery's OHMSS would have been his best, as the film was pretty much always intended to follow the novel.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,356
    Connery in OHMSS poses a very interesting "what if" scenario.

    Personally, I think it wouldn't have worked. There was too much bad blood between Connery and Broccoli by that point, and Connery was going through the motions in his performance, fulfilling his contract but little else.

    If OHMSS had followed GF so that Connery was at the top of his Bond game, now we're talking. (But that would have meant maybe no Rigg, no Hunt directing, Barry not yet peaking...all elements of OHMSS that are indispensable to my mind.)

    If there's a better example of a score helping a performance than OHMSS, I don't know it.
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 684
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Strog It isn't that I don't think Connery could pull it off. More that it would probably be jarring to see him do so, given the way he carried his interpretation of Bond up until that point.
    I see, @Roadphill. I'd agree about it being jarring, and that's some of what I was saying, but to me the jarring aspect comes only in trying to picture it based, as you say, on the evidence we have. To say it another way, if Connery had gotten to do the film, I'm not sure we'd be looking back at it now and saying his performance was jarring. I feel that he (and Hunt) were good enough to have found a way to integrate into the body of his Bond work what was required of him for OHMSS.

    I think part of the problem might come from attempting to mentally drop Connery into the film that starred Lazenby, because that inevitably winds up with our mixing Connery's performance into the one Lazenby delivered. I suppose the real question is, if Hunt had developed the film with Connery in mind, how much would it have differed? What changes would he have made to the script? What mood would he go for in certain scenes? Etc.

    I don't know enough about the production history on this one to say, but I'd assume the answer is, at least a little bit. But I don't believe that Hunt would've seen Connery as a reason to eliminate the vulnerability from the character, which would've been integral to the final effect he wanted to achieve. It is definitely true of Connery, as @bondjames says, that:
    bondjames wrote: »
    He always seems so much in control and part of that could be his imposing screen and physical presence.
    But this is also true of Lazenby, who also has an "imposing and physical presence" in the film (he's maybe even more brutish), yet is vulnerable when necessary. In fact I think Hunt probably cast Lazenby because his physical/imposing/commanding screen presence was so reminiscent of Connery. So in the same way Hunt didn't shy away from the vulnerable aspect of the character with this view of Lazenby in mind, I don't think he would've for Connery.

    This is all assuming of course that Connery was in top form. As @echo notes the timing for this film never would've worked out, especially as the earliest drafts were more focused on spectacle.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,298
    We covered the Connery angle before, I'm more interested in the "could Moore have done OHMSS'? I think he could and if LALD would be the follow up film, he'd have ben seen as a far more serious (and good) actor than he now is. I think that's a true missed opportunity.

    I also don't agree on the one-off thesis of @bondjames . Tomy mind Craig has shown it's possible to make an 'emotional' start, and keep on working the field. I love the way Craig portrays Bond in the follow-up films, Getting more loose by the film but at the same time protecting his own emotional personallity more and more (with the walking away from Swann as the epitomy of closing down emotions while on the job).

    Which brings me to another thought: SP doesn't properly work because it's not one coherent story, but a lot of loose ends tight together. As a viewer it doesn't come over as a consistent story and that's why the romance between Bond and Swann doesn't really work. He's first bitchy to her, then she lets her hair down as a wounded bird and next thing she's the hot famme fatale in the train. It all serves a purpose but as a story it doesn't hold up. Same goes for the 'stepbrother' angle, Bond's behaviour, and even Blofeld's reason to 'invite' Bond to his lair.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2018 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, fair enough. The Craig arc is an explicitly linked one. Whether they intended for that to be the case from the start or not, it is that way now. His interpretation has had to reconcile that emotionally traumatic beginning with 'classic lighter cinematic Bond' attributes as he's gone along. Some think he's done it well, like yourself. Others, like me, don't find it works too well.

    I love the Connery and Moore films as they exist. I just know that I wouldn't want my overall perception of those earlier films (and those lighter characterizations) to be clouded in any way by association with a heavy handed emotional story. So ultimately I'm quite glad that Laz did the 'one off' thing so successfully - so that I don't have to contend with that concern.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,298
    bondjames wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss, fair enough. The Craig arc is an explicitly linked one. Whether they intended for that to be the case from the start or not, it is that way now. His interpretation has had to reconcile that emotionally traumatic beginning with 'classic cinematic Bond' attributes as he's gone along. Some think he's done it well, like yourself. Others, like me, don't find it works too well.

    I love the Connery and Moore films as they exist. I just know that I wouldn't want my overall perception of those earlier films (and those lighter characterizations) to be clouded in any way by association with a heavy handed emotional story. So ultimately I'm quite glad that Laz did the 'one off' thing so successfully - so that I don't have to contend with that concern.

    Well I think Roger would've been even better at this, as Craigs Bond has more of a brooding character and Moore's was a bit more open emotion wise. Take his visit to Tracy's grave i.e. Moore really plays it well. You feel there's a loss but he did leave it behind him. I think Moore would've done that perhaps better then Craig if he'd first done OHMSS and then LALD (also beeing good as not-connected villains, contrary to the tie-up SP mde out of Criags films).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss, fair enough. The Craig arc is an explicitly linked one. Whether they intended for that to be the case from the start or not, it is that way now. His interpretation has had to reconcile that emotionally traumatic beginning with 'classic cinematic Bond' attributes as he's gone along. Some think he's done it well, like yourself. Others, like me, don't find it works too well.

    I love the Connery and Moore films as they exist. I just know that I wouldn't want my overall perception of those earlier films (and those lighter characterizations) to be clouded in any way by association with a heavy handed emotional story. So ultimately I'm quite glad that Laz did the 'one off' thing so successfully - so that I don't have to contend with that concern.

    Well I think Roger would've been even better at this, as Craigs Bond has more of a brooding character and Moore's was a bit more open emotion wise. Take his visit to Tracy's grave i.e. Moore really plays it well. You feel there's a loss but he did leave it behind him. I think Moore would've done that perhaps better then Craig if he'd first done OHMSS and then LALD (also beeing good as not-connected villains, contrary to the tie-up SP mde out of Criags films).
    You make a good point.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,054
    Strog wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Strog It isn't that I don't think Connery could pull it off. More that it would probably be jarring to see him do so, given the way he carried his interpretation of Bond up until that point.
    I see, @Roadphill. I'd agree about it being jarring, and that's some of what I was saying, but to me the jarring aspect comes only in trying to picture it based, as you say, on the evidence we have. To say it another way, if Connery had gotten to do the film, I'm not sure we'd be looking back at it now and saying his performance was jarring. I feel that he (and Hunt) were good enough to have found a way to integrate into the body of his Bond work what was required of him for OHMSS.

    I think part of the problem might come from attempting to mentally drop Connery into the film that starred Lazenby, because that inevitably winds up with our mixing Connery's performance into the one Lazenby delivered. I suppose the real question is, if Hunt had developed the film with Connery in mind, how much would it have differed? What changes would he have made to the script? What mood would he go for in certain scenes? Etc.

    I agree with this.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Strog wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Strog It isn't that I don't think Connery could pull it off. More that it would probably be jarring to see him do so, given the way he carried his interpretation of Bond up until that point.
    I see, @Roadphill. I'd agree about it being jarring, and that's some of what I was saying, but to me the jarring aspect comes only in trying to picture it based, as you say, on the evidence we have. To say it another way, if Connery had gotten to do the film, I'm not sure we'd be looking back at it now and saying his performance was jarring. I feel that he (and Hunt) were good enough to have found a way to integrate into the body of his Bond work what was required of him for OHMSS.

    I think part of the problem might come from attempting to mentally drop Connery into the film that starred Lazenby, because that inevitably winds up with our mixing Connery's performance into the one Lazenby delivered. I suppose the real question is, if Hunt had developed the film with Connery in mind, how much would it have differed? What changes would he have made to the script? What mood would he go for in certain scenes? Etc.

    I don't know enough about the production history on this one to say, but I'd assume the answer is, at least a little bit. But I don't believe that Hunt would've seen Connery as a reason to eliminate the vulnerability from the character, which would've been integral to the final effect he wanted to achieve. It is definitely true of Connery, as @bondjames says, that:
    bondjames wrote: »
    He always seems so much in control and part of that could be his imposing screen and physical presence.
    But this is also true of Lazenby, who also has an "imposing and physical presence" in the film (he's maybe even more brutish), yet is vulnerable when necessary. In fact I think Hunt probably cast Lazenby because his physical/imposing/commanding screen presence was so reminiscent of Connery. So in the same way Hunt didn't shy away from the vulnerable aspect of the character with this view of Lazenby in mind, I don't think he would've for Connery.

    This is all assuming of course that Connery was in top form. As @echo notes the timing for this film never would've worked out, especially as the earliest drafts were more focused on spectacle.

    Eloquently put, @Strog
  • Posts: 15,218
    bondjames wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss, fair enough. The Craig arc is an explicitly linked one. Whether they intended for that to be the case from the start or not, it is that way now. His interpretation has had to reconcile that emotionally traumatic beginning with 'classic cinematic Bond' attributes as he's gone along. Some think he's done it well, like yourself. Others, like me, don't find it works too well.

    I love the Connery and Moore films as they exist. I just know that I wouldn't want my overall perception of those earlier films (and those lighter characterizations) to be clouded in any way by association with a heavy handed emotional story. So ultimately I'm quite glad that Laz did the 'one off' thing so successfully - so that I don't have to contend with that concern.

    Well I think Roger would've been even better at this, as Craigs Bond has more of a brooding character and Moore's was a bit more open emotion wise. Take his visit to Tracy's grave i.e. Moore really plays it well. You feel there's a loss but he did leave it behind him. I think Moore would've done that perhaps better then Craig if he'd first done OHMSS and then LALD (also beeing good as not-connected villains, contrary to the tie-up SP mde out of Criags films).

    I said it before and I'll say it again: Moore was the most convincing widower of all the Bonds.
  • Would have been great to have seen Dalton in FYEO, OP and VTAK.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    @TellyBlofeld I would love to have seen Dalton in more Bond, but not at the expense of Sir Rog. Maybe AVTAK, mind you...
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I would love to have seen Dalton in more Bond, but not at the expense of Sir Rog. Maybe AVTAK, mind you...
    +1
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 16,204
    I don't think I could sacrifice Roger in AVTAK for Timmy, actually. However I truly wish we had gotten B17 in '91 then B18 in '93 followed by Pierce's 4 outings. Would have really evened things out, and omitted the long gap.
  • Posts: 7,507
    It is an interesting thought what would have happened if Tim har taken the role back then. How different would the films have been?
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    jobo wrote: »
    It is an interesting thought what would have happened if Tim har taken the role back then. How different would the films have been?

    I think FYEO would have been mostly the same. OP and AVTAK would be very different.
  • Posts: 15,218
    Remington wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    It is an interesting thought what would have happened if Tim har taken the role back then. How different would the films have been?

    I think FYEO would have been mostly the same. OP and AVTAK would be very different.

    My controversial opinion : all three movies would have suffered at the BO replacing Moore with Dalton but AVTAK would have improved in intrinsic quality.
  • Posts: 3,333
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Strog It isn't that I don't think Connery could pull it off. More that it would probably be jarring to see him do so, given the way he carried his interpretation of Bond up until that point.
    I see, @Roadphill. I'd agree about it being jarring, and that's some of what I was saying, but to me the jarring aspect comes only in trying to picture it based, as you say, on the evidence we have. To say it another way, if Connery had gotten to do the film, I'm not sure we'd be looking back at it now and saying his performance was jarring. I feel that he (and Hunt) were good enough to have found a way to integrate into the body of his Bond work what was required of him for OHMSS.

    I think part of the problem might come from attempting to mentally drop Connery into the film that starred Lazenby, because that inevitably winds up with our mixing Connery's performance into the one Lazenby delivered. I suppose the real question is, if Hunt had developed the film with Connery in mind, how much would it have differed? What changes would he have made to the script? What mood would he go for in certain scenes? Etc.

    I agree with this.
    There's a much bigger problem that @Strog has chosen to overlook, and that's how long principal photography took for OHMSS and Connery's propensity to demand shorter shooting schedules on every movie he made after YOLT. There's no way on earth that Connery would've accepted the conditions that Lazenby had to endure, including an arduous 11 month shoot that resulted in OHMSS. With a shorter shooting schedule the movie just would not have looked or felt the same. Anyone who thinks that it would, doesn't understand what made the original movie so special to start with, nor do they understand how Connery would not have capitulated in any way, shape or form. Another example is how the Swiss filming alone ended up running 56 days over schedule.

    The question one should really be asking is how DAF might have looked had Lazenby starred in it, even if they'd followed the same identical Connery script. With more time to shoot the climax on the oil rig and the subsequent Blofeld chase, without the worry of going over-schedule and paying Connery a huge daily bonus for every day that it did, Hamilton (or Hunt for that matter) would've had the extra days needed to make it ten times better than it was. But I guess some people just can't mentally drop themselves into such a concept.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    According to Some Kind of Hero, the first full script for B17 was done in January 1991 so I have a feeling it would have been released in mid-1992 in order to tie in with the 30th anniversary.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,054
    Birdleson wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I don't think I could sacrifice Roger in AVTAK for Timmy, actually. However I truly wish we had gotten B17 in '91 then B18 in '93 followed by Pierce's 4 outings. Would have really evened things out, and omitted the long gap.

    I agree.

    Me too.
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