Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 15,232
    Here is one: a James Bond without gadgets, it's like a soup without a moustache. It's soup.

    (I paraphrased Jean-Patrick Manchette, who said the same thing about a crime novel with a moral).
  • HarlowHarlow North Carolina
    Posts: 7
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here is one: a James Bond without gadgets, it's like a soup without a moustache. It's soup.

    (I paraphrased Jean-Patrick Manchette, who said the same thing about a crime novel with a moral).

    I might love you...
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,170
    Because of a discussion in the Bond movie rank, simple list thread I felt inspired to post my thoughts here.
    The scenes in the circus as Bond dresses as a clown to stop the atomic bomb going off in Octopussy is one of the best scenes in all of the series. Certainly a top ten moment.
    Rarely has the series created more tension. Very inventive and suspenseful.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    MooreFun wrote: »
    Not at all. Far too thuggish, and sticks out, in much the same way Brosnan didn't look good in the naval uniform where Connery did. It's just not natural for the man.

    uhh... fine, mate. Fine. Personal perceptions. I won't change your mind. You can't change mine. And yes, I went to what is known as a public school here in Toronto (private school-- ugh). I know how to pour a glass of wine and hold a stem. I know how to dress accordingly. To use the right knife and fork. And, with all of this snobbery (I'm first generation Canadian, my parents come from England (which is where I spent every single summer of my childhood (since my entire family (outside of my immediate), was living there)), I hafta say, as others have noted, DC is just fine... He is not a thug. He knows how to dress. How to drink. How to pour. He knows he is not staying in a run-down hotel. He's just fine... At least to me...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Sure I’m a bit harsh here, I do quite like CR and QOS. I just miss the elegance all the others brought to the role.
    It might be a detail but I’m sure Terence Young would have told Craig a connaisseur holds his wine glass at the stem.
    I also never quite understood what the advantage was of annoying Le Chiffre at the cost of that waiter. Couldn’t appreciate his act with Vesper at the bar either. It’s so arrogant and bad-mannered.
    I just don’t see Fleming’s Bond doing these things.

    http://www.007museum.com/bollinger_glass_craig.jpg
    http://www.007museum.com/bollinger_glass_craig_vesper.jpg
    https://bamfstyle.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/qosit-wine1.jpg

    But Craig's Bond does hold a wine glass at the stem??? See various links above?

    But Bond was under massive pressure at the Poker table in Casino Royale, no need for airs and graces? Indeed he snaps a chair in the novel. And I quote Fleming “A dry martini,’ he said. ‘One. In a deep champagne goblet.’ ‘Oui, monsieur.’ ‘Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet". No pretty please there???

    Fleming's Bond was very arrogant and sexist in some ways? Have you read the novels? I quote......“Women were for recreation. On a job, they got in the way and fogged things up with sex and hurt feelings and all the emotional baggage they carried around. One had to look out for them and take care of them.” Mmmm?

    Further examples of Fleming's very Un-PC Bond......http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/10-offensive-quotes-from-ian-flemings.html

    Fleming's Bond WAS arrogant and bad-mannered, indeed many timers throughout the novels?

    Well. Done.

    @suavejmf , I was only thinking on the train with Vesper (and he poured properly (her first, the bottle NEVER touches the rim of the glass, EVER, and he "CURLS" the bottle, avoiding the "drip" down its sides)).

    You captured far more.

    And, well, a picture speaks a thousand words, doesn't it??
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Benny wrote: »
    Because of a discussion in the Bond movie rank, simple list thread I felt inspired to post my thoughts here.
    The scenes in the circus as Bond dresses as a clown to stop the atomic bomb going off in Octopussy is one of the best scenes in all of the series. Certainly a top ten moment.
    Rarely has the series created more tension. Very inventive and suspenseful.

    The beginning murder of 009 is also very suspenseful. Would have been better if that was the PTS. The Acrostar is pretty cool but could have done without it.

    Another overlooked aspect is the excellent auction scene, an alternative to the 'one upping' the villain scenes. He's reckless, cocky, and disregards what the potential villain might do to him (at this point Bond doesn't know Khan is his nemesis).

    Octopussy also has one of the best ensemble of villains, from Khan (best lines), Orlov, twins to the yoyo thug and toothless thug. I'd say only Goldeneye and From Russia with Love matches Octopussy for villainy (runner ups Thunderball and Live and Let Die)

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2019 Posts: 6,387
    I love OP. It was my first Bond in the theater. And with very few tweaks--we're talking seconds here and there--it would have been even better.

    The clown makeup never bothered me. It's no more unbelievable in its haste than countless other moments in the series.

    I daresay OP is the most entertaining of the Moore films, from beginning to end. TSWLM is better made, and more important, but it drags in the final third.

    OP is just fun.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    It's my favourite Moore Bond no question. And one of my favourites overall
  • Posts: 15,232
    Benny wrote: »
    Because of a discussion in the Bond movie rank, simple list thread I felt inspired to post my thoughts here.
    The scenes in the circus as Bond dresses as a clown to stop the atomic bomb going off in Octopussy is one of the best scenes in all of the series. Certainly a top ten moment.
    Rarely has the series created more tension. Very inventive and suspenseful.

    I agree and I'd add: of all the Bond actors only Roger Moore could do that scene convincingly. Brosnan, Dalton, they'd look like they humiliate themselves.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    I've always felt the negative comments I've heard or read in various places over the years about the clown scene is because in some ways it's misunderstood. Often people think "Roger Moore, comedy Bond, dresses as a clown = too far"
    However to me the scene represents added tension and something quite dark BECAUSE he's dressed as a clown. A clown is a figure associated with fun (not by me BTW, creepy and unfunny) defusing a nuclear bomb. It's a scene that wouldn't have felt out of place in a Hitchcock film.
    Also from a story point of view Bond has to infiltrate a circus, how better to do it then to disguise oneself as a clown. In addition Moore plays it "straight " , there's no fooling about for cheap laughs. He is totally focussed on the job in hand, acts it well and caps the scene off brilliantly with his look of relief when the Bomb is defused.
    I've never had a problem with this scene for those reasons, I think it fits perfectly with the more serious elements in Octopussy.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,170
    Well put @cwl007 , I think one of the only reasons it works is because Roger Moore plays it straight. The tension and danger are maxed out as he frantically tries to convince the American general, but also knows they have minutes if not seconds to live.
    The fact that the countdown goes all the way to zero just adds suspense of a Goldfinger level. No clowning around here, apart from the disguise.
  • Posts: 15,232
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That aspect of the film never bothered me either (the safari, however...).

    I actually always liked the safari, in spite of its flaws. Not sure why.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,334
    cwl007 wrote: »
    I've always felt the negative comments I've heard or read in various places over the years about the clown scene is because in some ways it's misunderstood. Often people think "Roger Moore, comedy Bond, dresses as a clown = too far"
    However to me the scene represents added tension and something quite dark BECAUSE he's dressed as a clown. A clown is a figure associated with fun (not by me BTW, creepy and unfunny) defusing a nuclear bomb. It's a scene that wouldn't have felt out of place in a Hitchcock film.
    Also from a story point of view Bond has to infiltrate a circus, how better to do it then to disguise oneself as a clown. In addition Moore plays it "straight " , there's no fooling about for cheap laughs. He is totally focussed on the job in hand, acts it well and caps the scene off brilliantly with his look of relief when the Bomb is defused.
    I've never had a problem with this scene for those reasons, I think it fits perfectly with the more serious elements in Octopussy.

    I agree. The part that diffuses it for me is when he's waiting for the large German woman to finish her phone conversation. With a bomb about to go off he should've just kicked her out. If he then wouldn't be able to get through the line and needed to race to the base it would've been even more tense.

    Moore at his bet though as a clown, perfect acting.

    Nice wink to the start of the film as well. Two clowns trying to survive.
  • I think Roger gives a class Bond performance in Octopussy. It's a film that uses every strength from his previous films. Combines his humour, wit, and serious moments. Good film.
  • Posts: 15,232
    I always thought the scene with 009 was very scary too. You have a man trying to escape assassins and remain inconspicuous wearing a clown suit. Nice bit of foreshadowing as well.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    edited February 2019 Posts: 7,057
    Octopussy has one of the best climaxes --well, pre-climaxes-- in a Bond film with the bomb scene. And one of the best climaxes with the palace and plane scenes. And it's one of the best Bond films. A buffet of all the wonderful things the Bond films can offer. There is a sense of high adventure, exotic locations, a pretty great main Bond girl, memorable villains and henchmen, and also a serious, suspenseful spy feel that is well-integrated with the more playful aspects. The use of the clown motif at the beginning and at the end is one of my favorite elements in any Bond film. Played seriously but it has an intrinsic element of flamboyance and entertainment that is quintessentially Bondian. I'd love to watch Octopussy with an audience. The film is so jam-packed with one entertaining, ingenious moment after the other, I can see it being a great audience picture.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2019 Posts: 6,387
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed...really, it's just a bad line here and there. And you could easily cut out the Tarzan swing/yell.

    Moore's performance is assured, and he is well-matched by the cast. Adams is a properly mature Bond girl, as is Waybourn, and Moore has palpable buddy chemistry with Vijay. Q is in the field but there's not too much of him. They got the balance right with this one.

    It's the kind of film where you could just tell they had fun making it, and the audience shares in the fun.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Shoot me, but I also like checking the time in Gorilla suit. Therefore I don't have much to fault about Octopussy. I'm not particularly fond of the theme song but it sounds fine in the score
  • Posts: 12,523
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.
  • w2bond wrote: »
    Shoot me, but I also like checking the time in Gorilla suit. Therefore I don't have much to fault about Octopussy. I'm not particularly fond of the theme song but it sounds fine in the score


    It's such a beautiful score.
  • FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    I would agree with you @FoxRox!
  • Posts: 12,523
    Birdleson wrote: »
    My swan song rankings (EON):

    14. LTK
    16. DAF
    19. DAD
    21. AVTAK

    If we count OHMSS (just by default)...

    1. OHMSS (2)
    2. LTK (14)
    3. AVTAK (17)
    4. DAF (23)
    5. DAD (24)

    OHMSS, if you count it, is the only one to make my Top 10. I do like most of LTK, though it has slipped in my rankings a bit lately. AVTAK is fun but flawed; it has grown on me a lot in the last year or so though. DAF and DAD have some good stuff, but are my bottom two entries as of now.
  • Posts: 15,232
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.
  • Posts: 7,507
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.


    That I agree with!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,057
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.

    I don't know. In essence, AVTAK seems like a fairly straightforward Bond film. I think it would've suited several Bond actors.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,602
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.

    I don't know. In essence, AVTAK seems like a fairly straightforward Bond film. I think it would've suited several Bond actors.

    Pierce doing pain face when Mayday gets on top of him. :D
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.

    I don't know. In essence, AVTAK seems like a fairly straightforward Bond film. I think it would've suited several Bond actors.

    Pierce doing pain face when Mayday gets on top of him. :D

    Or Lazenby with his "Irma Bunt in the bed?" face.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,602
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.

    I don't know. In essence, AVTAK seems like a fairly straightforward Bond film. I think it would've suited several Bond actors.

    Pierce doing pain face when Mayday gets on top of him. :D

    Or Lazenby with his "Irma Bunt in the bed?" face.

    Fancy seeing you here Amazon
  • Posts: 15,232
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The missteps of OP could be so easily fixed....

    That is my sentiment with all of the Glen films, save one. Some pruning could give us four viable Top Ten Bond films. The odd one out is AVTAK; love it or hate it or be so-so about it, but it is what it is to the core and no trimming is really going to change that.

    Exactly right. AVTAK is already perfect! ;)

    It’s a better swansong for a long-running Bond than DAF and DAD for my money.

    That's the only saving grace as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm wondering if having Dalton as Bond and tailored AVTAK to him might have improved the movie tremendously, or if it could have easily destroyed Dalton's tenure before it even started and the franchise with him. I think only Moore could get away with AVTAK, just like only Connery could get away with DAF.

    I don't know. In essence, AVTAK seems like a fairly straightforward Bond film. I think it would've suited several Bond actors.

    It has American big names in the cast who could have easily overshadowed a new Bond actor and it has a lot of silly moments the public may have found unforgivable if it wasn't for Moore.
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