Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.

    It is always my first reaction when seeing that scene. I have to constantly tell myself that Moore isn't fighting Reiner. It messes with my mind.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.

    "You didn't like North? Die!"
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Bond must've really loathed This is Spinal Tap and Rob took that personally.
  • Posts: 1,860
    Since we are talking about TND so much, it includes two incidents that throw me out of the film. These are the kind of things that drive me crazy. The incidents are; the BMW cable blade cutter is exactly at the height of the cable and...................what if there had been customers inside the rental agency when the BMW crashed into it. I just hope that these are the kind of things the new Bond does not include.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    The chances of Martin Campbell being allowed to direct another Bond, and giving it his best, are extremely low.

    Nolan is a decent choice, but he's not the most dynamic director, his films tend to be quite dull visually.

    This is why Edgar Wright is my number one choice, he's an A list director who technically hasn't made a big budget franchise film yet. He has the right sensibilities, unmistakably british, and would probably be closest to the lewis gilbert/ guy Hamilton bond.
  • Posts: 16,169
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.

    It is always my first reaction when seeing that scene. I have to constantly tell myself that Moore isn't fighting Reiner. It messes with my mind.

    I tend to see Moore fighting Lou Costello and guitarist Carl Perkins in AVTAK.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.

    It is always my first reaction when seeing that scene. I have to constantly tell myself that Moore isn't fighting Reiner. It messes with my mind.

    I tend to see Moore fighting Lou Costello and guitarist Carl Perkins in AVTAK.

    Perkins and Costello Meet Bond
  • Posts: 16,169
    mattjoes wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I also have always had this lingering issue in TND where Brosnan's Bond is up against way too many geriatric looking henchmen and it makes the fights suffer as a result, like the recording booth sequence or even the bit throughout the newspaper factory. Toss in those cheesy '90s sound effects and it takes me right out.

    Same thing with AVTAK. One of the goons even looks like Rob Reiner.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Rob Reiner and Roger Moore fighting in that one.

    It is always my first reaction when seeing that scene. I have to constantly tell myself that Moore isn't fighting Reiner. It messes with my mind.

    I tend to see Moore fighting Lou Costello and guitarist Carl Perkins in AVTAK.

    Perkins and Costello Meet Bond

    :D
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    Oddly, I think PWB would be a good writer for Bond — Fleabag is very Bond-like character in some ways, by all accounts Killing Eve was good when she worked on it (others took over later) and she is not what might be called ‘politically correct’ with her characters, even if overall stories may have the underpinnings of a twenty-first century general morality and ethics, but that’s as things should be and always have been in Bond — which is usually somewhat progressive for it’s day.
    She gets a bad rap from people who probably haven’t looked at her work.
  • Posts: 1,078
    delfloria wrote: »
    The incidents are; the BMW cable blade cutter is exactly at the height of the cable and...................what if there had been customers inside the rental agency when the BMW crashed into it. I just hope that these are the kind of things the new Bond does not include.

    I've though exactly the same about both those things every time I watch it!!

    And when the coppers slam the breaks on during the 'salt corrosion' scene in TLD, and the top of the car goes flying forward. WTAF!!!!
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    JustJames wrote: »
    Oddly, I think PWB would be a good writer for Bond — Fleabag is very Bond-like character in some ways, by all accounts Killing Eve was good when she worked on it (others took over later) and she is not what might be called ‘politically correct’ with her characters, even if overall stories may have the underpinnings of a twenty-first century general morality and ethics, but that’s as things should be and always have been in Bond — which is usually somewhat progressive for it’s day.
    She gets a bad rap from people who probably haven’t looked at her work.

    The first season of Killing Eve certainly had a bit of Fleming in it. Globe trotting oddity mixed with cold blood. Villanelle is a bit of a female Bond without the moral compass (and if anyone wants to do a female-Bond-but-it's-not-called-Bond-and-instead-we're-finally-going-to-do-a-good-original-action-spy-series-with-a-female-British-lead franchise, Comer would be my #2 pick after Emily Blunt).
    However much I liked S1 of Killing Eve and Fleabag, I don't think a Bond script mainly written my PWB is the way to go. She's just too out there (that's a very bad description) for Bond and outside pressure would probably be that she needs to make it her Bond. I don't see her just doing a meat-and-potatoes mission movie. At the end of the day, Bond doesn't need to be formally daring or clever, in my book.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    JustJames wrote: »
    Oddly, I think PWB would be a good writer for Bond — Fleabag is very Bond-like character in some ways, by all accounts Killing Eve was good when she worked on it (others took over later) and she is not what might be called ‘politically correct’ with her characters, even if overall stories may have the underpinnings of a twenty-first century general morality and ethics, but that’s as things should be and always have been in Bond — which is usually somewhat progressive for it’s day.
    She gets a bad rap from people who probably haven’t looked at her work.

    The first season of Killing Eve certainly had a bit of Fleming in it. Globe trotting oddity mixed with cold blood. Villanelle is a bit of a female Bond without the moral compass (and if anyone wants to do a female-Bond-but-it's-not-called-Bond-and-instead-we're-finally-going-to-do-a-good-original-action-spy-series-with-a-female-British-lead franchise, Comer would be my #2 pick after Emily Blunt).
    However much I liked S1 of Killing Eve and Fleabag, I don't think a Bond script mainly written my PWB is the way to go. She's just too out there (that's a very bad description) for Bond and outside pressure would probably be that she needs to make it her Bond. I don't see her just doing a meat-and-potatoes mission movie. At the end of the day, Bond doesn't need to be formally daring or clever, in my book.

    She could bring some dialogue wit that’s needed in the series. That’s Purvis and Wade’s biggest writing problem. I could see her writing Bond 26, not directing it. Whoever’s writing Bond 26, all I want is Purvis and Wade NOT writing it.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    JustJames wrote: »
    Oddly, I think PWB would be a good writer for Bond — Fleabag is very Bond-like character in some ways, by all accounts Killing Eve was good when she worked on it (others took over later) and she is not what might be called ‘politically correct’ with her characters, even if overall stories may have the underpinnings of a twenty-first century general morality and ethics, but that’s as things should be and always have been in Bond — which is usually somewhat progressive for it’s day.
    She gets a bad rap from people who probably haven’t looked at her work.

    The first season of Killing Eve certainly had a bit of Fleming in it. Globe trotting oddity mixed with cold blood. Villanelle is a bit of a female Bond without the moral compass (and if anyone wants to do a female-Bond-but-it's-not-called-Bond-and-instead-we're-finally-going-to-do-a-good-original-action-spy-series-with-a-female-British-lead franchise, Comer would be my #2 pick after Emily Blunt).
    However much I liked S1 of Killing Eve and Fleabag, I don't think a Bond script mainly written my PWB is the way to go. She's just too out there (that's a very bad description) for Bond and outside pressure would probably be that she needs to make it her Bond. I don't see her just doing a meat-and-potatoes mission movie. At the end of the day, Bond doesn't need to be formally daring or clever, in my book.

    She could be too out there for sure — though can you imagine a Roger Moore delivery on her Twatnav joke?
    She has written two Flemingesque characters (Fleabag herself is *very* Bondian, like a ‘broken-wing’ Tracy turned up to eleven but with Bonds own hedonistic side turned up to eleven.) and would only have to tone some elements down. I also suspect her interview where she mentions not liking homework — and therefore not researching Bond before writing it — is a bit of a wink and a nod. She’s of an age and culture where she’s absorbed Bond as part of her cultural growing up. ITV Moore, Dalton at Easter, and Brosnan on the screens when she was a teen. Then Craig as a young adult.
    I think she could do really well, especially if given someone like Cavill, who does know how to do humour whilst remaining the straight man. Much like Moore and Brosnan, but I think he is likely to manage to be more serious than either. Playboy Bond didn’t get much of an outing under Craig, but I can see that working in this reinvention. Hedonism to a degree, because you don’t expect things to last forever. A Cold War mentality that still underpins the forty and thirty somethings to this day in various ways.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Killing Eve was based on a series of novels too so I'm sure she'd have read those for her homework.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    The problem I have with PWB returning is her style seems to be to force unnecessary quips. In NTTD, there's constant examples of the dialogue undercutting the tension in the situation and it breaks the viewers immersion.

    PWB actually talks about it herself in the last episode of the NTTD Podcast, and you feel it throughout the film. Maybe it would work better in the next actors run, but it was jarring at the end of Daniel's in my opinion.
  • Posts: 4,162
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The problem I have with PWB returning is her style seems to be to force unnecessary quips. In NTTD, there's constant examples of the dialogue undercutting the tension in the situation and it breaks the viewers immersion.

    PWB actually talks about it herself in the last episode of the NTTD Podcast, and you feel it throughout the film. Maybe it would work better in the next actors run, but it was jarring at the end of Daniel's in my opinion.

    It's an increasingly common writing decision in big movies. I've noticed later Marvel movies have also had similar moments.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The problem I have with PWB returning is her style seems to be to force unnecessary quips. In NTTD, there's constant examples of the dialogue undercutting the tension in the situation and it breaks the viewers immersion.

    PWB actually talks about it herself in the last episode of the NTTD Podcast, and you feel it throughout the film. Maybe it would work better in the next actors run, but it was jarring at the end of Daniel's in my opinion.

    It's an increasingly common writing decision in big movies. I've noticed later Marvel movies have also had similar moments.

    Shocking.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The problem I have with PWB returning is her style seems to be to force unnecessary quips. In NTTD, there's constant examples of the dialogue undercutting the tension in the situation and it breaks the viewers immersion.

    PWB actually talks about it herself in the last episode of the NTTD Podcast, and you feel it throughout the film. Maybe it would work better in the next actors run, but it was jarring at the end of Daniel's in my opinion.

    It's an increasingly common writing decision in big movies. I've noticed later Marvel movies have also had similar moments.

    That's absolutely a very common way of writing films that are supposed to be four-quadrant blockbusters. Give it stakes, but don't make them permanent. Give it gravitas, but undercut it with a quip.
    PWB is slightly different though. Or rather the projects she has full control over are. Fleabag also has quips and undercutting humour, but it is also emotionally devestating in places and sometimes that is just down to her acting. So maybe the problem is that the words on the page off as hackneyed, where she may have been able to give it the right context if she had been on set or even delivered it herself. Which in turn kind of rules her out for Bond again, because AFAIK she doesn't direct and I can't imagine they would let her "showrun" a Bond film...
  • Posts: 4,162
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The problem I have with PWB returning is her style seems to be to force unnecessary quips. In NTTD, there's constant examples of the dialogue undercutting the tension in the situation and it breaks the viewers immersion.

    PWB actually talks about it herself in the last episode of the NTTD Podcast, and you feel it throughout the film. Maybe it would work better in the next actors run, but it was jarring at the end of Daniel's in my opinion.

    It's an increasingly common writing decision in big movies. I've noticed later Marvel movies have also had similar moments.

    That's absolutely a very common way of writing films that are supposed to be four-quadrant blockbusters. Give it stakes, but don't make them permanent. Give it gravitas, but undercut it with a quip.
    PWB is slightly different though. Or rather the projects she has full control over are. Fleabag also has quips and undercutting humour, but it is also emotionally devestating in places and sometimes that is just down to her acting. So maybe the problem is that the words on the page off as hackneyed, where she may have been able to give it the right context if she had been on set or even delivered it herself. Which in turn kind of rules her out for Bond again, because AFAIK she doesn't direct and I can't imagine they would let her "showrun" a Bond film...

    Undercutting the pathos of a scene with some sort of humour (the fancy term for it would be bathos I suppose) isn't necessarily bad in itself. If done right it can work to great effect or make some sort of point. It just depends.

    Never particularly liked how it's been done in Marvel films, I was half sold when they did it in Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and I was fine the minimal times it was done in NTTD.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Being English, I totally get and approve of black and gallows humour - it's a centuries-old part of my cultural heritage, after all ;). But they're not the same as wisecracks and joshing and I agree with Jordo that the latter undermined some of NTTD. 'I've just shown someone your watch' - black humour: brilliant. 'Really blew his mind' - wisecrack: not so good. They hit it perfectly a few times in QOS, I thought: 'You shot him at point blank range and threw him off a roof' - 'I did my best not to.' Classic.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Venutius wrote: »
    Being English, I totally get and approve of black and gallows humour - it's a centuries-old part of my cultural heritage, after all ;). But they're not the same as wisecracks and joshing and I agree with Jordo that the latter undermined some of NTTD. 'I've just shown someone your watch' - black humour: brilliant. 'Really blew his mind' - wisecrack: not so good. They hit it perfectly a few times in QOS, I thought: 'You shot him at point blank range and threw him off a roof' - 'I did my best not to.' Classic.

    I always felt Connery did the quips better than Moore. Attitude and timing are required for delivering a clever line. Not all actors do it well.

    I recently saw a video of an actress absolutely murdering a cheesy line in a play I had written. She was so intent on expressing her character's indignity associated with the line, she delivered the line with such bad timing and expression, a good laugh was lost.
    I also fault the director on that one.


  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Being English, I totally get and approve of black and gallows humour - it's a centuries-old part of my cultural heritage, after all ;). But they're not the same as wisecracks and joshing and I agree with Jordo that the latter undermined some of NTTD. 'I've just shown someone your watch' - black humour: brilliant. 'Really blew his mind' - wisecrack: not so good. They hit it perfectly a few times in QOS, I thought: 'You shot him at point blank range and threw him off a roof' - 'I did my best not to.' Classic.

    I always felt Connery did the quips better than Moore. Attitude and timing are required for delivering a clever line. Not all actors do it well.

    I recently saw a video of an actress absolutely murdering a cheesy line in a play I had written. She was so intent on expressing her character's indignity associated with the line, she delivered the line with such bad timing and expression, a good laugh was lost.
    I also fault the director on that one.


    As a fan, I sometimes lose the perspective of how hard it is to actually land a line perfectly on stage or screen. I sit at home or in the theatre and think "Well, they could have done this or that or the other line" better. And then you spend some time to think about it and talk to people who actually write and direct and perform and you realize that there are a myriad different things that can go wrong. A perfect line not delivered correctly. A great delivery murdered by bad direction. A great on-set moment, ruined in the edit. It all has many more moving parts than I generally care to think about.

    Specifically with regards to Bond and @Venutius's distinction between black humour and wisecracking, I am also reminded of Stephen Fry's comment about the difference between British and American humour:

    This of course doesn't really apply to Bond, who's never embarrassed, but there's still something in there about the way the British and Americans approach humour (which is strange for me to observe as a German, who of course don't have any humour at all...) and the constant pull of Bond becoming too American...
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    edited April 2023 Posts: 942
    Yes, I think there is a difference as you say. I think Bond’s humour and delivery should be not too dissimilar to that of Avon (Paul Darrow) in the old British sci- fi series Blake’s 7 - rather dry and with an edge to it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    I'm still sad we had Darrow in a Bond film but didn't get to see him.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm still sad we had Darrow in a Bond film but didn't get to see him.

    Ooh, which film was he in?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,413
    Apparently he's one of the doctors who tries to resuscitate Bond on the Navy ship at the beginning of DAD. I think he gets a line too (perhaps in the bit where they're scanning his liver etc.?) but it's hard to tell if it's him or not. I think he may have been there when Bond gets sedated on the bridge exchange too.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,152
    It is Paul Darrow in that DAD scene - I know someone who was a close friend of Paul's in the last few years of his life and he talked to her about it a few times. He loved Bond, had read all the books and would've loved to have been in the films when he was younger. When he got older, he'd've liked to have played a former mentor figure or even Andrew Bond in flashbacks, say. Paul had a brilliant sense of humour and the disparity between all that and the extent to which he'd actually been involved with Bond struck him as darkly amusing - so, even though most of what he shot for DAD was cut out, he had some screengrab photos made of the brief flash of him in the white doctor's coat and he used to sign them as a joke at Blake's 7 conventions! Brilliant bloke, greatly missed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    He was brilliant: B7 kind of became the Avon show in the final couple of seasons and quite right too- a brilliant character, fantastically played with a real sparkle in the eye. He should have gone on to some Roger Moore-style fame really.
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