Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    slide_99 wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @slide_99 ... Since you haven't seen NTTD, how exactly did the plot "go through massive" contortions", to make sure Bond died?

    Killing Bond is no different than killing 009. The writers knew that was the ending, and they wrote to that ending, like most scripts. It was actually no different than killing of a villain, just this time, they were killing Bond.

    You may not like they killed Bond, but don't claim there were these "massive" contortions of plot. It was another Bond adventure. This time, however, villains died, and so did our hero.

    Get over it, Sparky.

    I've seen enough of it from the whole Netflix and chill phenomena (others renting it).
    And no, killing Bond is different from killing 009. Let's not get absurd here.
    mtm wrote: »

    I would be quite funny if the writers for the other films had started out with no idea where the stories would end and didn't have the idea of 'Bond saves the world and kills the baddie' to aim at, and had got to the scene of, say, Bond on the island full of crocodiles or racing to disarm a nuclear bomb and just thought: 'oh it feels a bit contrived that he'd have survived this, doesn't it?' And just let Bond die and the villain win :D

    Again, having an ending in mind for a film you're writing is different from making an entire movie just to have a specific ending.

    Lucky that’s not what’s happening here then. The funny thing is that folk complain that the Craig movies were made without an overall plan, as if they should have written five movies in 2005; and now it’s terrible that they wrote one movie with a plan as to how it would end. It’s as if you’ll always get someone moaning about something.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/no-writers-guild-deal-today-amptp-claims-1235404087/

    So the strike is on. It looks like they are very far apart from each other indeed (well, they would want to make it look it that way on the first day of a strike wouldn't they?). I guess we can settle in for the long wait.

    Unless EON goes completely off the rails and decides that they don't need any actual writing by professional writers (past what they may have gotten done and dusted until last night) to go into casting and spend the next few months finding an actor and then get a script for him after the strike is over.
    Tiny sidenote: This minimally raises the odds of them hiring a more classical, "workmanlike" director who isn't interested in working on the script. That person could direct screentests off of old material, but once that is done, they'd be on hold as well as they can't start pre-production for a film without a script.
  • Posts: 579
    I don't think this strike will affect the production of BOND 26, as the strike won't last more than 6 months and I don't think EON was planning to start the writing process in the next 6 months anyway.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,152
    I'm not worried - if the writers' strike affects Bond 26 in the same way it affected QOS, we'll have another all-time classic on our hands.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Venutius wrote: »
    I'm not worried - if the writers' strike affects Bond 26 in the same way it affected QOS, we'll have another all-time classic on our hands.

    Provided we have an actor who's willing to work on the film the same way Craig did.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 4,139
    Not sure if I'd use QOS as an example of what Bond 26 could turn out like due to these circumstances.... mainly because it's not a particularly well regarded Bond film outside these forums (and indeed is very flawed in terms of filmmaking and script I'd argue).

    The other reason is because from what I understand QOS was on a tight schedule regardless of the '07 writer's strike. The difference here is that it doesn't seem like any significant work has been done on Bond 26. It means the producers will have more time to flesh things out on a broad/conceptual level before actually getting people to work on a script. Which could be a good thing. With longer waits and no 'tight deadlines' we've gotten films like GE, CR and SF (I wouldn't necessarily count NTTD as they had to deal with Boyle dropping out/rewriting the script late in the game but even that seems more fleshed out as a film than SP or even QOS to my mind, and certainly the producers had most of the bare bone ideas in place).
  • Posts: 1,985
    @MakeshiftPython I count myself among those who did not like the idea of Bond dying.
    Not as a matter of principle, but preference. Craig was insistent Bond dying would end his tenure irrevocably. Yet his predecessors ended their runs without knocking off Bond. Disappointed or not, we all moved on. The connection between each Bond has been flimsy at best. We've long accepted each Bond has his own timeline with little relation to previous Bonds.

    Feelings about the end of NTTD are mixed and disagreement is no doubt permanently baked in. Many feel the end was justified and poignant. Justified yes, given the set up. But was it necessary? Poignant? Not for me. It didn't have the emotional pay off it did for others. In my opinion, killing Bond was the easy way out. The real challenge would have been how to wrap up Craig's tenure if Bond had not died. I've read all the justifications of Bond living on the edge and could be killed at any moment etc. Going out in a literal blaze of glory feels very much like a cliche.

    Imagining Bond enjoying fatherhood and domestic bliss was no doubt a step too far.

    But the writers could have gone back to the source material and given us the ending Fleming wrote in YOLT. That, in my opinion, is the better ending.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Provided we have an actor who's willing to work on the film the same way Craig did.
    We'll be very fortunate if we get another actor with anything like Craig's level of commitment to the role, tbh. The bloke gave everything, above and beyond. We were so lucky to have him.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,383
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython I count myself among those who did not like the idea of Bond dying.
    Not as a matter of principle, but preference. Craig was insistent Bond dying would end his tenure irrevocably. Yet his predecessors ended their runs without knocking off Bond. Disappointed or not, we all moved on. The connection between each Bond has been flimsy at best. We've long accepted each Bond has his own timeline with little relation to previous Bonds.

    Feelings about the end of NTTD are mixed and disagreement is no doubt permanently baked in. Many feel the end was justified and poignant. Justified yes, given the set up. But was it necessary? Poignant? Not for me. It didn't have the emotional pay off it did for others. In my opinion, killing Bond was the easy way out. The real challenge would have been how to wrap up Craig's tenure if Bond had not died. I've read all the justifications of Bond living on the edge and could be killed at any moment etc. Going out in a literal blaze of glory feels very much like a cliche.

    What else was available? A happy ending with a wife and kids feels even more cliche to me; and not very Bond either. He could have retired off to Jamaica, but that's how the film started so we've gone nowhere; and just rejoining MI6 and carrying on as before isn't an ending at all- plus wasn't really an option after he decided to leave at the end of the previous film. What ending can you give him?
    CrabKey wrote: »
    But the writers could have gone back to the source material and given us the ending Fleming wrote in YOLT. That, in my opinion, is the better ending.

    Which ending do you mean? Bear in mind they had already done the 'Bond appears to be dead but isn't' situation from YOLT in SF, right down to the obituary. They didn't do the amnesia/brainwashing stuff because, well it's too silly even for the films. The Bourne films only just about got away with it by making the conditioning program central to the whole thing.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @CrabKey , that's a satisfying end for you, but what about the worldwide audience? Please hear me out:

    If Craig Bond walked away with amnesia, and into the lion's den, and then in the next film, Bond number 007 strolls into M's office, I think most audiences would be questioning: is this supposed to continue the Craig timeline?? Or is this a new timeline? Most would be waiting for references to Madeleine Swann,Vesper, and the DB5.........

    Because they made the Craig Era interconnected, they now needed a full stop with the promise of a fresh start for the new actor.

    This is why this death works so well, especially for the health of the franchise moving forward (no questions. Craig Bond is dead. New actor. New timeline. Nothing left over from the Craig Era)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2023 Posts: 8,183
    Venutius wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Provided we have an actor who's willing to work on the film the same way Craig did.
    We'll be very fortunate if we get another actor with anything like Craig's level of commitment to the role, tbh. The bloke gave everything, above and beyond. We were so lucky to have him.

    No kidding.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython I count myself among those who did not like the idea of Bond dying.
    Not as a matter of principle, but preference. Craig was insistent Bond dying would end his tenure irrevocably. Yet his predecessors ended their runs without knocking off Bond. Disappointed or not, we all moved on. The connection between each Bond has been flimsy at best. We've long accepted each Bond has his own timeline with little relation to previous Bonds.

    Feelings about the end of NTTD are mixed and disagreement is no doubt permanently baked in. Many feel the end was justified and poignant. Justified yes, given the set up. But was it necessary? Poignant? Not for me. It didn't have the emotional pay off it did for others. In my opinion, killing Bond was the easy way out. The real challenge would have been how to wrap up Craig's tenure if Bond had not died. I've read all the justifications of Bond living on the edge and could be killed at any moment etc. Going out in a literal blaze of glory feels very much like a cliche.

    Imagining Bond enjoying fatherhood and domestic bliss was no doubt a step too far.

    But the writers could have gone back to the source material and given us the ending Fleming wrote in YOLT. That, in my opinion, is the better ending.

    I think if you had presented the previous actors with an opportunity of ending their run with Bond dying, not all of them would object. I can easily imagine Connery being open to that idea, as he would later do that with Robin Hood. Actors LOVE having a death scene.

    I think Brosnan wouldn’t have gone with it given his comments on how unsure he seemed about NTTD. Dalton? Might have liked a more ambiguous death like Fleming gave Bond (before revealing Bond survived in the next adventure. Lazenby? He started off with OHMSS, so who knows if the ending to that would have made him open to Bond’s death, but he did give praise to the movie. Moore wasn’t a very dramatic Bond, so I don’t think it would have fit his take on the character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah I don't think Brosnan would have gone for it as he'd have liked to keep playing Bond forever!
    Did Roger ever die in a movie?
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I don't think Brosnan would have gone for it as he'd have liked to keep playing Bond forever!
    Did Roger ever die in a movie?

    He died twice in The Man Who Haunted Himself!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Yes, good one!

    I think Connery might have gone for it, yeah; he was always dying. Dalton, I expect so... the weird thing is I can't quite imagine any of the others having quite as much impact. Funnily enough, the closest probably would have been Brosnan, as he actually brought in more drama than most of them apart from Craig.
    I kind of find it quite hard to imagine caring that much if Dalton's Bond had died, because you never really quite connect to him onscreen. I'd say I probably care more for Roger's Bond: when he's about to die in the centrifuge, silly though it is, I think it's more affecting than Bond dangling off the cocaine conveyor belt, or other moments of Dalton peril.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Venutius wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Provided we have an actor who's willing to work on the film the same way Craig did.
    We'll be very fortunate if we get another actor with anything like Craig's level of commitment to the role, tbh. The bloke gave everything, above and beyond. We were so lucky to have him.

    Absolutely. However his Bond legacy plays out ten, twenty, ... years from now, he was seriously committed. Dalton was too, I understand. The smart move of the current producers was that they actually let Craig get so deeply involved.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I don't know if which of the other Bonds would have wanted their Bond to die, but I certainly hope that it would have been better implemented than it was in NTTD.

    Bond is shot, and the missile strike has already been ordered (the poisoning is overkill* he's not getting off the island). Why not have Hinx turn up in a steamroller, and flatten Bond?

    *Excuse the pun.
  • Speaking personally I never got too upset over Craig’s Bond dying. I sort of knew that it was coming, especially with all the rumors leading up to NTTD. Having said that, I wasn’t repulsed by the death of Bond, nor super emotional during the death scene. Another version of the character will come along as always, so I’m not too understanding of the backlash.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Yes, the rumours about Boyle's script being rejected because he wanted to have Bond die were swirling for a while before so that idea was in my head, and then when Eon were going out of their way to ask people not to spoil the film for other people when it premiered, I was pretty prepared for it - as often a spoiler warning just existing is enough to spoil the thing itself! And then of course the film itself doesn't really make a surprise of it: it builds towards his death and makes sure we know that there's no way out- it's not a shock death at all.

    So although I wasn't spoiled, Eon's spoiler warning probably spoiled me more than anything- when they make a lot of publicity about this being the lead actor's final film and then put a spoiler warning out it doesn't take a genius to add 2 and 2! :D But I was sad during the ending: it was an effective and affecting scene and it worked for me. Some of the backlash confused me too though.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 682
    I think Brosnan wouldn’t have gone with it given his comments on how unsure he seemed about NTTD. Dalton? Might have liked a more ambiguous death like Fleming gave Bond (before revealing Bond survived in the next adventure. Lazenby? He started off with OHMSS, so who knows if the ending to that would have made him open to Bond’s death, but he did give praise to the movie. Moore wasn’t a very dramatic Bond, so I don’t think it would have fit his take on the character.

    I think Brosnan was talking about SP.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I think Brosnan wouldn’t have gone with it given his comments on how unsure he seemed about NTTD. Dalton? Might have liked a more ambiguous death like Fleming gave Bond (before revealing Bond survived in the next adventure. Lazenby? He started off with OHMSS, so who knows if the ending to that would have made him open to Bond’s death, but he did give praise to the movie. Moore wasn’t a very dramatic Bond, so I don’t think it would have fit his take on the character.

    I think Brosnan was talking about SP.

    I agree.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,016
    I agree that Bond's death wasn't necessarily a surprise to Bond fans with all the rumours during the film's production. What I honestly didn't like about Bond's death and find difficult to rewatch is Safin shooting Bond that way. Bond usually scans his surroundings, before making a move. So Safin shooting Bond like that, doesn't stay true to Bond's character. Bond could be poisoned or drugged and have had close shaves with explosions before. But I could never envisage Bond being shot that way.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Bond gets shot at all the time; he's just used to them missing! :)

    ge7navy-gun-aks2.jpg?resize=664%2C287&ssl=1
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    mtm wrote: »
    Bond gets shot at all the time; he's just used to them missing! :)

    ge7navy-gun-aks2.jpg?resize=664%2C287&ssl=1

    Exactly! Safin should have missed B-)
  • Posts: 1,985
    peter wrote: »
    @CrabKey , that's a satisfying end for you, but what about the worldwide audience? Please hear me out:

    If Craig Bond walked away with amnesia, and into the lion's den, and then in the next film, Bond number 007 strolls into M's office, I think most audiences would be questioning: is this supposed to continue the Craig timeline?? Or is this a new timeline? Most would be waiting for references to Madeleine Swann,Vesper, and the DB5.........

    Because they made the Craig Era interconnected, they now needed a full stop with the promise of a fresh start for the new actor.

    This is why this death works so well, especially for the health of the franchise moving forward (no questions. Craig Bond is dead. New actor. New timeline. Nothing left over from the Craig Era)

    I absolutely get your point. But isn't that what we've had to do with every change of actor? We accept a new Bond in a new timeline that has no connection to the previous films. Bond's death will not put an end to the questions.










  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    But I was sad during the ending: it was an effective and affecting scene and it worked for me. Some of the backlash confused me too though.

    Had a feeling it was coming for all the reasons stated, and it made me even more moved as I watched him still desperately trying to get away… and then the blast doors started to close again… and, and, and…. I bawled. Still do. For whatever reason I deeply connected to this Bond, and his death was, and is still, and will always be, powerful and moving to me.
  • Posts: 1,985
    @Peter I've been a Bond fan since DN in 1963. One might think I'd have the same response, seeing a character I've watched for 60 years. But no tears, no lump in my throat, not even anger. But just Duh! Disappointment. I've said all I need to about other endings. It is what it is. There is a lot I liked about the Craig series, some I didn't. My hope is Bond 26 will start with as much promise as CR.
  • CharmianBondCharmianBond Pett Bottom, Kent
    Posts: 557
    peter wrote: »
    But I was sad during the ending: it was an effective and affecting scene and it worked for me. Some of the backlash confused me too though.

    Had a feeling it was coming for all the reasons stated, and it made me even more moved as I watched him still desperately trying to get away… and then the blast doors started to close again… and, and, and…. I bawled. Still do. For whatever reason I deeply connected to this Bond, and his death was, and is still, and will always be, powerful and moving to me.

    I'm biased, Craig is my Bond, I make no bones about that. I think Craig and Seydoux (and to a lesser extent Whishaw) sell the emotion, when her voice breaks that's me gone the waterworks start flowing no matter how many times I've rewatched it at this point.
  • I do like the sense of overkill Bond’s death had. I mean it took a few bullets, a virus, and a missile barrage to kill the man. Just shooting him would’ve been a bit of a let down.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2023 Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @Peter I've been a Bond fan since DN in 1963. One might think I'd have the same response, seeing a character I've watched for 60 years. But no tears, no lump in my throat, not even anger. But just Duh! Disappointment. I've said all I need to about other endings. It is what it is. There is a lot I liked about the Craig series, some I didn't. My hope is Bond 26 will start with as much promise as CR.

    Like I said @CrabKey , I really connected to Craig. Right from CR. I can’t explain it, other than to say, his performances as James Bond hit me straight in the heart.

    I’ve always loved Bond. As a child, my father, a Brit, an original fan (Connery was King), fed me a healthy dose of the Connery films on VHS. Although he despised Lazenby, and thought of Moore as only The Saint, he also took me to all of the Bond films that were released in cinema.

    I read the Fleming books over and over. Each passing year, I understood them more and more. I loved Fleming for his dreamy descriptions, violence, the absurd…

    But when I walked out of CR, something had changed. I was swept away. It’s similar to a passionate love at first sight encounter. I don’t know why. I didn’t plan it that way, but the actor moved me like no other actor in this role.

    By the time I saw NTTD, it was like I was watching a good friend, someone I loved and admired, lose his life. In other words, this actor, and the way he played the character, was in my nervous system.

    I hate sounding melodramatic, but that’s the closest I can get to describing something so raw and personal to me. Then again, I’m an emotional guy in real life, but I never expected James Bond to ever affect me like this. Ever.

    I also don’t try and change peoples minds; I can understand why they may be upset, angry, or just plain ambivalent. But it does get frustrating when people haven’t seen the film comment on the ending, or others use it as justifications of why Barbara Broccoli should be fired, or they feel some kind of entitlement to the character (“you can’t kill Bond!” (as a creator of fiction myself, I beg to differ: the producers and their creative team can do whatever they want, and their job is to make the best films for the worldwide box office, and not to fifty 007 fans)).

    So I can understand where you’re coming from.

    I hope you can read through my statement and see that this is the most authentic and genuine way I can describe my feelings for Craig-Bond and why his death was impactful to me (I also think it helps the franchise start completely fresh, after connecting all of the films).
    peter wrote: »
    But I was sad during the ending: it was an effective and affecting scene and it worked for me. Some of the backlash confused me too though.

    Had a feeling it was coming for all the reasons stated, and it made me even more moved as I watched him still desperately trying to get away… and then the blast doors started to close again… and, and, and…. I bawled. Still do. For whatever reason I deeply connected to this Bond, and his death was, and is still, and will always be, powerful and moving to me.

    I'm biased, Craig is my Bond, I make no bones about that. I think Craig and Seydoux (and to a lesser extent Whishaw) sell the emotion, when her voice breaks that's me gone the waterworks start flowing no matter how many times I've rewatched it at this point.

    Oh, when her voice cracks, I think of my wife. It pains me to hear and see Madeleine in their final good-bye. Hits me right in my gut, @CharmianBond
  • Posts: 1,985
    @Peter I have watched NTTD four times now and Madeleine improves each time I see the film. She is sultry in a way Vesper was not. Sometimes it takes seeing a film several times to begin to appreciate aspects one did not initially. But she still lacks the onscreen chemistry Craig had with Green. In my opinion the two best films in the entire Bond series are OHMSS and CR due to Tracy and Vesper. Those two performances tower above all other love interests in the series. The death of Tracy was more affecting than Vesper's because her death felt more personal. Vesper's drowning scene has always felt a little detached, but Eva Green's performance otherwise is brilliant. I can watch her over and over. She and Craig seem so connected.

    As you point about Madeleine's voice cracking, to an extent our perception of things has a lot to do with our own experiences. Men don't often talk about their emotions. Who would have thought James Bond films might encourage that.
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