Where would you rank SPECTRE? (no spoilers)

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  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,282
    In my top 3, possibly top 2.....this movie does justice for the continuity and aims for more realism than Skyfall.

    It delivers!!!!
  • Posts: 12,462
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Still at the rear end, but I like it a lot more than I did.

    I'm waiting to see if it can reach #23 on your list. Maybe someday? Or just too many issues for you?
  • I like it more than that. Upper third perhaps. Good but not great.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    The pre-title sequence is excellent.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The pre-title sequence is excellent.

    I think the PTS is good but overrated IMO. The first shot is great but from the moment the building explodes it doesn't work so well. I mean there is a building collapsing in front of a thousand people and nobody seems to care about that. The parade just goes on. Shouldn't one expect people to scream around. The same applies to the helicopter fight. Unfortunately I never felt the danger and the tension in that seqeunce. As often in the Craig era, it is too easy for him to knock out his enemies.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The pre-title sequence is excellent.
    The tracking shot up to the explosion is excellent (better than excellent). The rest is just ok in my view.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    After watching QOS last night my rankings are shaken up a bit... I find that yes, after all QOS is still my favourite Craig entry. SP has dropped out of my top 5 but remains solidly within my top ten.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Spectre is currently at #5 for me. That's where I expect it to stay for a while.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 2,483
    GBF wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The pre-title sequence is excellent.

    I think the PTS is good but overrated IMO. The first shot is great but from the moment the building explodes it doesn't work so well. I mean there is a building collapsing in front of a thousand people and nobody seems to care about that. The parade just goes on. Shouldn't one expect people to scream around. The same applies to the helicopter fight. Unfortunately I never felt the danger and the tension in that seqeunce. As often in the Craig era, it is too easy for him to knock out his enemies.

    As the building collapses, we cannot even see the crowd so we do not know its response. But during the helicopter sequence we definitely hear screams and see crowd movement.

    At any rate, I love the traditional carnivalesque imagery of the PTS. Like so many Bonds before it--TB, OHMSS, MR, QoS--SP's PTS captures a discrete cultural celebration, and this lends the PTS a genuine Bond "feel." That's my favorite aspect of the PTS. I also like the YOLT homage (Bond landing on a couch), and the DC trademark of flippantly tossing aside a handle.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Maybe, however, I think since the Brosnan era we have this element that Bond needs to destroy the location he is around instead of "using" it. I don't know how to express that better. But I personally found it unnecessary that the building collapses because it just makes everything so much more unbelievable and overblown and it just does not really fit to the rest of the PTS. Neither could Bond have survived that fall (being hit by stones falling on him) nor should that have no impact on the parade. Where is the danger that this "accident" should reflect. I don't feel it. Many people have criticised the collapsing building in CR and it is also probably a bit exaggereated but at least it was intense and the danger was there, not only because of Vesper's death. But as I said, it is not a bad PTS in Spectre. I just don't find it to be among the very best.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    Still sits at #3 for me and most likely will continue to stay there for a very long time.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The pre-title sequence is excellent.
    The tracking shot up to the explosion is excellent (better than excellent). The rest is just ok in my view.

    Until he falls onto the sofa. A quibble at that moment, but it grows into a torrent after the halfway point.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Having just dipped into the thread about SP being more or less appreciated over time it struck me that people (and I include myself in this) are guilty of ripping into SP very harshly as if its the worst Bond film ever made (some people even laughably saying its on a par with DAD!) without stopping to consider if they turn a critical scalpel of similar sharpness on older Bond films.

    Being entirely objective rather than viewing things through nostalgia tinted glasses, are your criticisms of SP exclusive to this film or do other Bond films suffer from same problems yet seemingly get more of a free pass due to the nostalgia factor? Furthermore theres a lot of positive stuff in SP (decent PTS, excellent (apart from some mediocre action) first two acts until they arrive at the crater, Craig on very good form, excellent cinematography) which tends to get lost in the criticism of the stuff thats not so good, yet it is leagues above some of the older entries.

    My own take is that yes SP is badly flawed but does that stop it being a really good entry in the series? Not really.

    The decision to have Blofeld have some personal 'step brother' connection with Bond is the worst call since greenlighting the invisible car IMO. But it has such an extremely minor impact on proceedings (another indication of the shocking writing. If this is going to be the twist then is should be a major thing but Bond just ignores it and it has zero impact on him, despite Hannes Oberhauser being so important to him that he actively hunts down the guy who killed him in the short story OP) it is no more irritating to me than the pigeon double take, the tarzan yell or the slide whistle. Stupid? Yes. Totally ruining the film? Nah.

    Ditto the retconning - hamfisted, sloppy and ill judged but a deal breaker that turns the film into a total clunker? Not really.

    Same to be said for the score - its bad to be sure but doesnt make the film a total disaster. A good score can only save a film up to a point. Barry's scores for DAF, TMWTGG, MR and AVTAK elevate whats on screen certainly but dont save those films from being not that great.

    And apart from slightly disappointing big action set pieces (car chase, plane crash, finale on the Thames) those are my only big issues with the film.

    I think theres a sense that because a film is new we pick it apart a lot more than some of the older ones without really objectively considering that some of said films really are a lot more shoddily put together than most of SP.

    Off the top of my head without really going into it (theres the separate SP v other films thread for that) I would say the following:

    Blatantly Worse Than SP
    DAF
    LALD
    TMWTGG
    MR
    AVTAK
    TND
    TWINE
    DAD

    Arguably Worse/Better Than SP
    TB (most will disagree but TB is a drudge to watch for me whenever Fiona is not on screen)
    YOLT
    TSWLM
    FYEO
    LTK
    OP
    GE
    QOS
    SF

    Blatantly Better Than SP
    DN
    FRWL
    GF
    OHMSS
    TLD
    CR

    I'm trying to be impartial here (TB bias excepted) and while some of you might be tempted to jump down my throat and say that the likes of TSWLM and GE should be filed under Blatantly Better Than SP the fact is that the Rog and Brozza eras are filled with camp and thinly drawn characters. Yes their basic stories are probably more coherent but the cartoon aspect of characters like Jaws and Xenia is more blatant than it is with Hinx and Blofeld. Anyway I'm not actually saying they are definitely better or worse just that a case can be argued either way.

    Personally out of the arguables I would probably have TSWLM, GE and QOS on a par with SP; OP and SF marginally better and YOLT, FYEO and LTK marginally worse. But these opinions arent fixed in stone and until I break it down element by element in the other thread I cant be sure where exactly it sits in my own rankings but I would guess somewhere around the middle which is probably what it deserves.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    @TheWizardOfice I mainly agree with your first list above, namely:
    Blatantly Worse Than SP
    DAF
    LALD
    TMWTGG
    MR
    AVTAK
    TND
    TWINE
    DAD

    I disagree on the ones I've crossed out. LALD, TMWTGG (I have a bias for this one) and TND are still too close to call for me.

    You make good points, but the film is being judged in relation to the other Craig films primarily at the present time. That is how it always goes. TWINE & DAD are normally compared to GE because they are also Brosnan vehicles.

    Craig set the bar very high for his Bond due to the genius of the earlier entries, and SP is being critiqued quite harshly as a result because subconscious comparisons are being made to the latest entries starring the same actor. Especially given his 'world' is all interconnected with a linear timeline.

    Bottom line, the critique is harsh, but one area where this film completely fails for me is charisma. It's beautifully filmed, but it's like watching the Dead Walking (no pun intended) and I wonder if that was in fact Mendes' intention. Even DAF has charisma as far as I'm concerned.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Having just dipped into the thread about SP being more or less appreciated over time it struck me that people (and I include myself in this) are guilty of ripping into SP very harshly as if its the worst Bond film ever made (some people even laughably saying its on a par with DAD!) without stopping to consider if they turn a critical scalpel of similar sharpness on older Bond films.

    Being entirely objective rather than viewing things through nostalgia tinted glasses, are your criticisms of SP exclusive to this film or do other Bond films suffer from same problems yet seemingly get more of a free pass due to the nostalgia factor? Furthermore theres a lot of positive stuff in SP (decent PTS, excellent (apart from some mediocre action) first two acts until they arrive at the crater, Craig on very good form, excellent cinematography) which tends to get lost in the criticism of the stuff thats not so good, yet it is leagues above some of the older entries.

    My own take is that yes SP is badly flawed but does that stop it being a really good entry in the series? Not really.

    The decision to have Blofeld have some personal 'step brother' connection with Bond is the worst call since greenlighting the invisible car IMO. But it has such an extremely minor impact on proceedings (another indication of the shocking writing. If this is going to be the twist then is should be a major thing but Bond just ignores it and it has zero impact on him, despite Hannes Oberhauser being so important to him that he actively hunts down the guy who killed him in the short story OP) it is no more irritating to me than the pigeon double take, the tarzan yell or the slide whistle. Stupid? Yes. Totally ruining the film? Nah.

    Ditto the retconning - hamfisted, sloppy and ill judged but a deal breaker that turns the film into a total clunker? Not really.

    Same to be said for the score - its bad to be sure but doesnt make the film a total disaster. A good score can only save a film up to a point. Barry's scores for DAF, TMWTGG, MR and AVTAK elevate whats on screen certainly but dont save those films from being not that great.

    And apart from slightly disappointing big action set pieces (car chase, plane crash, finale on the Thames) those are my only big issues with the film.

    I think theres a sense that because a film is new we pick it apart a lot more than some of the older ones without really objectively considering that some of said films really are a lot more shoddily put together than most of SP.

    Off the top of my head without really going into it (theres the separate SP v other films thread for that) I would say the following:

    Blatantly Worse Than SP
    DAF
    LALD
    TMWTGG
    MR
    AVTAK
    TND
    TWINE
    DAD

    Arguably Worse/Better Than SP
    TB (most will disagree but TB is a drudge to watch for me whenever Fiona is not on screen)
    YOLT
    TSWLM
    FYEO
    LTK
    OP
    GE
    QOS
    SF

    Blatantly Better Than SP
    DN
    FRWL
    GF
    OHMSS
    TLD
    CR

    I'm trying to be impartial here (TB bias excepted) and while some of you might be tempted to jump down my throat and say that the likes of TSWLM and GE should be filed under Blatantly Better Than SP the fact is that the Rog and Brozza eras are filled with camp and thinly drawn characters. Yes their basic stories are probably more coherent but the cartoon aspect of characters like Jaws and Xenia is more blatant than it is with Hinx and Blofeld. Anyway I'm not actually saying they are definitely better or worse just that a case can be argued either way.

    Personally out of the arguables I would probably have TSWLM, GE and QOS on a par with SP; OP and SF marginally better and YOLT, FYEO and LTK marginally worse. But these opinions arent fixed in stone and until I break it down element by element in the other thread I cant be sure where exactly it sits in my own rankings but I would guess somewhere around the middle which is probably what it deserves.

    Bang on. It's no masterpiece, but the criticism is disproportionately harsh. When film historians look back it will neatly correlate with an era in which people were just irrationally angry about anything and everything simply because social media gave them a platform.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Where is the criticism disproportionately harsh? Its ranking on several sites is not at the bottom. It's just not as lauded as SF. Correctly so, in my view. We are a little harder on it, but we are diehards, and we tend to do that.

    It is being criticised at the moment because it is the latest film. That is the way it goes. Poor QoS is still being blasted to this day. It doesn't deserve it. In both cases the problem is the predecessor film was just too damn good, imho.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    You know, I've noticed something interesting happening: for some reason, it seems that many who loved SF now dislike SP, and those that hated SF love SP. I've read many people talk about their adoration for SP after being disappointed three years ago by SF, and vice versa. Really, the criticism SP is getting now from one section of our membership isn't any different from the band that stood against SF after it released. The only thing a bit strange is that those who criticized SF now find themselves on the other side of the firing line as they rally to show their love for SP. A peculiar yet fascinating switching of the teams has happened, and not in any way like I've seen before. Weird, eh, or is it just me?

    In many ways I view SF and SP as one movie, or at least a continuation of the same core ideas and journey, so not liking one at all but adoring the other is hard for me to wrap my head around. Thoughts on this?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    You're exactly correct @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I noted that a while back.

    The same can be said of CR/QoS (one film but different tones).

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I love them both, so with you there. It is a bit odd.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited February 2016 Posts: 10,591
    You know, I've noticed something interesting happening: for some reason, it seems that many who loved SF now dislike SP, and those that hated SF love SP. I've read many people talk about their adoration for SP after being disappointed three years ago by SF, and vice versa. Really, the criticism SP is getting now from one section of our membership isn't any different from the band that stood against SF after it released. The only thing a bit strange is that those who criticized SF now find themselves on the other side of the firing line as they rally to show their love for SP. A peculiar yet fascinating switching of the teams has happened, and not in any way like I've seen before. Weird, eh, or is it just me?

    In many ways I view SF and SP as one movie, or at least a continuation of the same core ideas and journey, so not liking one at all but adoring the other is hard for me to wrap my head around. Thoughts on this?
    I've noticed this as well. The polarization between the groups is very evident from nearly every person I've spoken to, who say they loved Spectre, but hated Skyfall, and vice versa. Also, it's the Internet, and people are much more vocal with their opinions. I'm among the very few who regard both films as being among the best entries of the franchise.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    bondjames wrote: »

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.
    That's correct in my case.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2016 Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    You're exactly correct @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I noted that a while back.

    The same can be said of CR/QoS (one film but different tones).

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.

    I agree, but I think less so. CR was so heavily loved and when QoS came, I think a massive majority of us didn't like it. For many (like myself) it took a long time to warm to it, and again, because CR was so brilliant, anything less really stuck out in a bad way. It wasn't a surprise like it is now to see SF fans turn to SP dissenters, and vice versa.

    With the SF v. SP debate, the love for SF might be equal or arguably greater than CR (I personally don't think so), but the criticism of SP hasn't been to the level that QoS got and frankly, still gets.

    That's why I classify the CR/QoS and SF/SP reactions differently.
  • RC7RC7
    edited February 2016 Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Where is the criticism disproportionately harsh? Its ranking on several sites is not at the bottom. It's just not as lauded as SF. Correctly so, in my view. We are a little harder on it, but we are diehards, and we tend to do that.

    I've seen it described several times as being as bad, if not worse than DAD. I can enjoy DAD for what it's worth, but that's just reactionary bullshit and disproportionately harsh.
    I love them both, so with you there. It is a bit odd.

    I like them both too. QoS is the only DC entry that I think is lacking in several areas.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    I've seen it described several times as being as bad, if not worse than DAD. I can enjoy DAD for what it's worth, but that's just reactionary bullshit and disproportionately harsh.
    I have not seen that but if that's the case, then yes, I don't agree. If they said it was more boring and they had more fun with DAD, I would personally agree and understand. However, SP is a far better film on many levels than DAD.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I'd say SP is about equal to GE for me in terms of overall quality.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I've seen it described several times as being as bad, if not worse than DAD. I can enjoy DAD for what it's worth, but that's just reactionary bullshit and disproportionately harsh.
    I have not seen that but if that's the case, then yes, I don't agree. If they said it was more boring and they had more fun with DAD, I would personally agree and understand. However, SP is a far better film on many levels than DAD.

    Personally, I think SP has as many flaws as SF, but in different areas. In a strange way, there's a movie within the DNA of both SF and SP that combined would be a work of genius, but neither attain that level for me. I guess that is always the way with Bond for the most part, though, so I can't complain.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I'd say SP is about equal to GE for me in terms of overall quality.
    Agreed. Both are in my top 5.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    You're exactly correct @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I noted that a while back.

    The same can be said of CR/QoS (one film but different tones).

    I've also noticed (and my head will be chewed off here) that many Brosnan era fans are huge fans of SP. More so than SF.

    I agree, but I think less so. CR was so heavily loved and when QoS came, I think a massive majority of us didn't like it. For many (like myself) it took a long time to warm to it, and again, because CR was so brilliant, anything less really stuck out in a bad way. It wasn't a surprise like it is now to see SF fans turn to SP dissenters, and vice versa.

    With the SF v. SP debate, the love for SF might be equal or arguably greater than CR (I personally don't think so), but the criticism of SP hasn't been to the level that QoS got and frankly, still gets.

    That's why I classify the CR/QoS and SF/SP reactions differently.
    I wasn't here for the QoS reaction, but from what I read online at the time, I think the current SP & at the time QoS opinions are similar (although most who dislike QoS still seem to rank it far lower than SP).

    Why does SF resonate for some and SP not work, and vice versa? That is a curious thing. I really don't know.

    I can only speak for myself, and I am an SF fan. I found SP by the numbers and lacking in passion. I didn't feel that way about SF, and that's why I liked it.

    For me, the plot contrivances and the brother and all the rest could have been forgiven, but I need charisma in my Bond films. Spark. Life. Energy. I just didn't get that from the new film, but got that in spades from the prior entry. It's almost like the colours and the score (I found both drab in the new film) mirrored what was on screen. I'm not sure if that's just a perception or if that's in fact that case.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Actually there are only few people who say they hate the film. Some say it is in their top 5 or top 10, most at least say it's not in their bottom 5. I am indeed not a big fan of it but I also don't hate it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    At the moment I have it at #8, but then all of my top ten is pure gold to me...
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